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Groups > comp.lang.c > #76880

Re: Objective C

From James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Objective C
Date 2015-11-22 10:53 -0500
Organization Self
Message-ID <5651E4F7.3060208@verizon.net> (permalink)
References (11 earlier) <m4k05bdossoe7criehdedlhgfpv1lml9rp@4ax.com> <ln7flb8u7t.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <n2qvdu$gqi$1@dont-email.me> <56510709.8000908@verizon.net> <n2rs8j$mpf$1@dont-email.me>

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On 11/22/2015 02:55 AM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
> On 21-Nov-15 18:06, James Kuyper wrote:
>> On 11/21/2015 06:43 PM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>> On 21-Nov-15 05:31, Keith Thompson wrote:
...
>>>> N1570 6.5.2.3p3, footnote:
>>>>
>>>>     If the member used to read the contents of a union object is
>>>>     not the same as the member last used to store a value in the
>>>>     object, the appropriate part of the object representation of
>>>>     the value is reinterpreted as an object representation in the
>>>>     new type as described in 6.2.6 (a process sometimes called
>>>>     "type punning"). This might be a trap representation.
>>>
>>> That says the representation in the new type could be either a valid
>>> value or a trap representation, ...
>>
>> True.
>>
>>> ... which is the very definition of an
>>> indeterminate value. ...
>>
>> No, it is not. When you have an indeterminate value, which value you 
>> have (including whether or not it's a trap representation) is
>> completely unspecified.
> 
> That's what I see above: the result is either a valid value or a trap
> representation, and that is the definition of indeterminate value.

No - the lack of specification is a key component of the definition of
an indeterminate value, and the combination of 6.5.2.3p3 and the
implementation-defined representation of the two types specifies
precisely what the resulting value will be, including whether or not it
will have a trap representation. That's not quite true: if the first
type has multiple representations for the same value, it might contain
any one of those representations, but that's far less uncertainty than
applies when the value is indeterminate.

>> When you read the value of one member of a union after having set
>> the value of a different member, the key point is that "the
>> appropriate part of the object representation of the value is
>> reinterpreted as an object representation in the new type". That is
>> defined behavior - though exactly what the behavior is that it
>> defines depends upon the representation of the two types.
> 
> ... and, assuming the read member's type _has_ trap representations,
> that could result in either a valid value or a trap representation.

Yes, and because the value is not indeterminate, but is instead
precisely determined by the combination of 6.5.2.3p3 and the
implementation-defined representations of the two types, it's possible
for the programmer to know, with a certainty, which valid value it will
be, and whether or not it will be a trap representation. That's
something that would be impossible with an indeterminate value.

> If not, then that leaves only valid values, and there would seem to be
> no problem--but see below.
> 
>>> ... Reading an indeterminate value invokes undefined behavior,
>>> even if it happens to _not_ be a trap representation.
>>
>> Citation, please?
> 
> N1570 J.2
> "1 The behavior is undefined in the following circumstances:
> ...
> -- The value of an object with automatic storage duration is used while
> its value is indeterminate."

J.2 is listed as informative; it has no authority in itself.  J.2 cites
6.2.4, 6.7.9, and 6.8 as the supporting sections from the normative part
of the standard.

The only thing that 6.2.4 says which seems relevant is paragraph 6,
referring to objects of automatic storage duration: "The initial value
of the object is indeterminate. If an initialization is specified for
the object, it is performed each time the declaration or compound
literal is reached in the execution of the block; otherwise, the value
becomes indeterminate each time the declaration is reached.". Paragraph
7 says the same thing about objects with variable length array type.

The only thing that 6.7.9 says which seems relevant is in paragraph 10:
"If an object that has automatic storage duration is not initialized
explicitly, its value is indeterminate."

I can't figure out what 6.8 says that might be considered relevant.

So the only thing that those clauses seem to specify is that the value
is indeterminate. An indeterminate value can be have trap
representation, and if it does, attempting to read it does have
undefined behavior. But any situation which allows you to rule out the
possibility of a trap representation renders such code safe.

> That doesn't apply to non-auto objects, which I wasn't aware of, but it
> seems clear that if an auto object with indeterminate value happens to
> have a valid value rather than a trap representation (and even if its
> type doesn't _have_ trap representations), using it still invokes
> undefined behavior.

Can you find a normative clause supporting J.2's claim?

>> The only argument I know of for undefined behavior from the use of
>> indeterminate values depends upon the fact that a trap representation
>> is a possibility.
> 
> To be fair, that's the only case where I'd expect an actual problem.
> 
>> That argument therefore breaks down if it's a type that is guaranteed
>> to have no trap representations (such as unsigned char) or a type that
>> happens to have no trap representations on the current platform.
> 
> That's what I assume the intent was--and what I assume every compiler
> actually implements, but I'm not sure that a strict reading of the
> wording actually promises that.

As far as I can tell, it does, and J.2 is in error in this regard.

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Objective C Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 09:10 -0800
  Re: Objective C "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 09:16 -0800
  Re: Objective C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-10 17:17 +0000
  Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-10 09:32 -0800
    Re: Objective C Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-10 11:38 -0600
  Re: Objective C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-10 12:36 -0500
    Re: Objective C Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 11:15 -0800
      Re: Objective C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-10 21:51 +0000
        Re: Objective C Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 23:13 -0800
      Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-13 16:01 -0800
        Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-14 01:07 +0000
          Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-14 06:26 -0800
            Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-14 22:22 +0000
              Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-14 15:46 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-15 01:47 +0000
                Re: Objective C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-15 10:43 +0000
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-15 13:19 -0800
            Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-14 15:43 -0800
            Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-15 23:50 +0100
              Re: Objective C gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-11-16 00:05 +0000
              Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-15 19:10 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-16 09:11 +0100
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-16 11:57 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-16 20:38 +0000
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-16 13:20 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-16 22:28 +0000
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-16 15:33 -0800
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-16 15:56 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-17 01:43 +0000
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-17 01:21 +0000
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-16 18:11 -0800
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-16 20:12 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-19 00:59 +0000
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 22:46 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-19 14:25 +0000
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 07:58 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-19 22:13 +0000
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 15:29 -0800
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-27 08:44 -0800
                Re: Objective C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-17 01:26 +0000
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-16 21:48 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-16 20:27 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-17 13:58 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-17 12:28 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-18 13:00 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 12:31 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-18 16:43 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 15:57 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-19 19:09 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 19:05 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-20 15:00 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-20 15:30 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-22 17:11 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-22 15:53 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-23 13:51 -0600
                Re: Objective C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-24 12:00 +0000
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-17 10:26 +0100
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-17 06:20 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-17 16:41 +0100
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-17 12:08 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-17 16:27 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-17 14:55 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-18 13:59 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 13:06 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-24 14:24 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-24 15:11 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-26 17:02 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-27 07:26 -0800
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 21:56 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-22 02:17 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-22 07:16 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-26 17:11 -0600
                Re: Objective C Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-22 19:09 +0000
                Re: Objective C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-17 23:28 -0600
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-18 15:33 +0100
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 23:06 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-19 09:12 +0100
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 09:25 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-19 21:06 +0100
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-20 13:49 -0800
                Re: Objective C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 05:01 -0600
                Re: Objective C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 05:09 -0600
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-21 03:31 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-21 17:43 -0600
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-21 16:00 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-22 01:12 -0600
                Re: Objective C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-27 16:42 +0000
                Re: Objective C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-27 12:38 -0500
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-27 11:09 -0800
                Re: Objective C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-21 19:06 -0500
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-21 17:00 -0800
                Re: Objective C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-22 14:44 +0000
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-22 01:55 -0600
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-22 00:03 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-22 10:18 +0000
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 03:21 -0800
                Re: Objective C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-22 10:53 -0500
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-22 20:28 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-22 18:52 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-23 11:58 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-23 15:24 -0800
                Re: Objective C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-23 09:46 -0500
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-23 08:13 -0800
                Re: Objective C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-23 12:04 -0500
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-23 11:52 -0600
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 16:05 -0800
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-24 09:09 -0800
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-08 08:48 -0800
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-08 10:40 -0800
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-09 12:34 -0800
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-08 10:50 -0800
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-09 12:42 -0800
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-09 13:38 -0800
                Re: Objective C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-10 19:54 +0000
                Re: Objective C David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-12-06 08:02 -0500
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-22 14:36 -0800
                Re: Objective C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-23 00:41 -0600
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 07:39 -0800
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-22 14:23 -0800
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-17 10:24 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-18 15:40 +0100
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-20 16:02 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-21 15:53 +0100
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-21 08:58 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-22 22:14 +0100
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 03:39 -0800
                Re: Objective C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-23 13:24 +0000
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-26 09:39 -0800
                Re: Objective C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-26 13:16 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-26 12:25 -0800
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-27 14:34 -0800
                Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-26 12:39 -0800
                Re: Objective C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-27 16:43 +0000
                Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-27 09:29 -0800
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-27 14:18 -0800
                Re: Objective C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 22:35 +0000
                Re: Objective C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-23 17:40 -0500
                Re: Objective C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-24 05:35 +0000
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-25 12:15 -0800
                Re: Objective C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-25 22:49 +0000
                Re: Objective C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-27 16:44 +0000
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-27 14:03 -0800
                Re: Objective C Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-29 09:29 +0000
                Re: Objective C Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-22 19:01 +0000
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 07:31 -0800
                Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-23 07:43 -0800
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-23 08:17 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-23 17:34 +0100
                Re: Objective C Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-23 22:02 +0000
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-24 10:12 +0100
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-27 08:39 -0800
          Re: Objective C Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-14 18:24 +0000
        Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-14 12:23 -0800
          Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-14 12:36 -0800
            Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-14 13:13 -0800
              Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-14 14:04 -0800
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-14 14:15 -0800
                Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-14 14:29 -0800
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-14 15:39 -0800
                Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-14 16:37 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-15 13:46 +1300
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-15 02:06 +0000
                Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-15 03:25 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-15 12:56 +0000
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-15 07:53 -0600
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-15 07:19 -0600
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-15 13:29 +0000
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-15 10:56 -0800
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-15 14:35 -0800
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-15 16:52 -0800
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-15 19:49 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-16 11:02 +0000
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-16 10:36 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-12-06 08:03 -0500
                Re: Objective C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-11-16 02:01 +0100
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-15 19:34 -0800
                Re: Objective C Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2015-11-15 19:54 -0800
                Re: Objective C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-17 22:36 +0000
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-17 15:27 -0800
                Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-17 21:15 -0800
          Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-14 22:08 +0000
      Re: Objective C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-27 14:36 -0800
  Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-10 19:03 +0100
    Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-10 10:50 -0800

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