Re: Unspecified behavior in C

From	James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Unspecified behavior in C
Date	2015-07-08 13:54 -0400
Organization	Self
Message-ID	<559D63E6.8060304@verizon.net> (permalink)
References	<353ff1a5-5e38-4791-9e5b-2c3d6589079c@googlegroups.com> <ln1tgjbnqp.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <ac8f0089-98d6-466a-afb2-eb5bfc12d88a@googlegroups.com> <lnoajmaatx.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <97928b10-0689-4a44-b516-56fdadf9e39a@googlegroups.com>

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On 07/08/2015 01:24 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 8, 2015 at 9:11:33 AM UTC-7, Keith Thompson wrote:
>>
>> If I define two objects with static storage duration, I do not
>> know or care in which order they're initialized.  I see no benefit,
>> and some significant cost, in a requirement to document the order.
>>
>> Let's take another example.  The order in which arguments in a
>> function call are evaluated is unspecified.  If I write:
>>
>>     func(arg1, arg2, arg3);
>>
>> the three arguments may be evaluated in any of 6 orders.
> 
> Actually this is documented. They may be evaluated in any order.

That's what he just said. It "is documented", as you say, by saying that
the "Except as specified later (for the function-call (), &&, ||, ?:,
and comma operators), the order of evaluation of subexpressions and the
order in which side effects take place are both unspecified." (6.5p3) -
which is what he was referring to. The arguments of a function are
sub-expression of the function call expression.

Note, this is the wording in C99. The wording in C2011 has gotten a bit
more complicated, because C2011 allows for multi-threaded code. This has
required the addition of new terminology to be more precise about when
events are (and are not) required to occur in a specific sequence. and
the new version is written using that terminology:

"Except as specified later, side effects and value computations of
subexpressions are unsequenced." (6.5p3).

> We are having trouble with the word "unspecified". I suspect that
> initially all behavior not specified in the standard was called 
> "unspecified" and that "implementation-defined" came later. But
> this is a kind of unspecified where a small number of obvious
> alternatives might occur depending on essentially uncontrollable 
> matters. That is very different than some other kinds of
> unspecification.  
> 
> Perhaps this should be called "unpredicable".

That causes problems with applied to behavior that is (for a given
platform) perfectly predictable - and I can't think of any behavior
labeled by the standard as "unspecified" which is completely incapable
of being predicted on all platforms (though, in many cases, prediction
would be incredibly difficult).

Everything a programmer needs to know about such behavior is conveyed
perfectly by the term "unspecified" - that means that code intended to
be portable must be written to cope in an appropriate fashion with all
of the allowed possibilities. That would still be true if it were
labeled "unpredictable".

Thread

Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-07 14:44 -0700
  Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-07 15:34 -0700
    Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-08 08:47 -0700
      Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-08 09:11 -0700
        Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-08 10:24 -0700
          Re: Unspecified behavior in C John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2015-07-08 10:46 -0700
          Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-08 13:54 -0400
          Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-08 11:12 -0700
            Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-09 09:15 -0700
              Re: Unspecified behavior in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-09 17:33 +0100
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-10 09:24 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-10 12:54 -0400
              Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-09 10:58 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-10 09:33 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-10 12:11 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-10 21:05 +0000
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-10 17:14 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-11 09:32 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-11 12:59 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-11 17:21 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-11 09:23 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-11 13:03 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-11 17:15 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-12 09:52 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-12 14:13 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-13 09:02 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-13 13:18 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-13 11:09 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-13 15:06 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-14 08:14 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-14 12:02 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-13 12:03 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-14 07:54 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-14 11:16 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-14 16:17 +0100
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-14 09:16 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-14 12:29 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-14 14:57 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2015-07-14 13:12 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-14 16:30 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2015-07-14 15:54 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-07-14 21:41 -0500
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-07-14 21:51 -0500
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2015-07-15 12:42 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-07-15 16:13 -0500
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-07-16 08:49 -0500
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-20 10:10 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-07-20 13:24 -0500
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-23 02:56 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-07-23 11:26 -0500
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-26 11:24 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-07-23 19:03 -0500
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-15 21:19 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-15 23:45 -0500
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-16 01:37 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-16 09:42 +0100
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-16 17:05 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-17 01:32 +0100
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-16 21:07 -0400
                We're good - don't you worry 'bout a thing, babe (Was: Unspecified behavior in C) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-07-17 07:21 +0000
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-07-19 20:59 +0000
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-19 22:02 +0100
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-16 17:59 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-16 23:09 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-17 18:48 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-17 23:09 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-07-19 20:57 +0000
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-19 17:22 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 18:57 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-19 22:16 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 19:30 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2015-07-30 14:20 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-30 15:30 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2015-07-30 15:53 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-30 16:46 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-31 00:59 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-31 17:15 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-31 18:28 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-31 23:28 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-04 04:07 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-08-04 18:02 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-04 21:27 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-24 09:33 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 17:11 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-06 12:44 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2015-08-03 12:09 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-03 13:26 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 17:53 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-08-03 18:44 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-08-04 17:59 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-08-05 02:23 +0100
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-04 21:39 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-08-04 19:27 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-04 00:25 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2015-08-04 11:55 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-08-04 10:31 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-04 13:32 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-04 22:46 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2015-08-10 12:16 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-10 13:26 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 17:46 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-05 12:34 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-14 17:57 +0100
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-14 10:31 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-14 18:50 +0100
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-15 20:59 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-14 11:34 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-07-19 20:46 +0000
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-12 12:07 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-12 19:53 +0000
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-12 16:12 -0400
              Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-09 14:20 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-09 12:18 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-10 09:47 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-10 13:36 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-11 09:19 -0700
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-11 12:56 -0400
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C gordonb.j19di@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2015-07-11 20:36 -0500
                Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-12 10:10 -0700
              Re: Unspecified behavior in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-07-09 20:13 +0100
          Re: Unspecified behavior in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-07-09 11:17 +0000
        Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-08 10:37 -0700
          Re: Unspecified behavior in C John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2015-07-08 10:51 -0700
          Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-08 14:14 -0400
          Re: Unspecified behavior in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-08 12:19 -0700
      Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-08 12:14 -0400
        Re: Unspecified behavior in C David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-08 10:40 -0700
          Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-08 14:29 -0400
            Re: Unspecified behavior in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-07-09 11:20 +0000
      Re: Unspecified behavior in C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-09 02:30 -0500
  Re: Unspecified behavior in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-07 22:30 -0400

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