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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #434164

Re: Train gedanken - again.

From Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de>
Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity
Subject Re: Train gedanken - again.
Date 2017-09-27 15:40 +0200
Organization PointedEars Software (PES)
Message-ID <4805231.Sb9uPGUboI@PointedEars.de> (permalink)
References (4 earlier) <5079786.DvuYhMxLoT@PointedEars.de> <opus8e$72i$1@gioia.aioe.org> <2067019.ElGaqSPkdT@PointedEars.de> <oq1s4j$tef$1@gioia.aioe.org> <753266808.0ifERbkFSE@PointedEars.de>

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Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:

> HGW wrote:
>> On 22/09/17 09:24, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
>>> HGW wrote:
>>>> According to SR, the train observer is not moving relative to the
>>>> flashes.
>>> Wrong.
>> Well if you are assuming the flashes strike the ground only then the
>> whole aim of the experiment falls apart.
> 
> Of course not.  That the flashes strike the ground relative to which one
> observer is _not_ moving and the other (in the train) *is*, is the *key*
> *fact* of the experiment.

It is probably better to be more precise here.  “Flashes” are short for 
“flashes of lightning”; this is the visual phenomenon associated with the 
electromagnetic phenomenon of _lightning_.

So actually not the flashes strike the ground, but the lightnings do.

It should also be noted that the ground here is just an explanatory vehicle 
to provide for a more tangible frame of reference.  The experiment works 
just as well with lightnings in air or with lightnings striking the train 
(assuming it is long enough, and it and the train observer survive the 
lightnings striking), or with flashlights or other light sources instead of 
flashes of lightning.  It also works with an automobile or a bus instead of 
a train aso.

That is why it is called a *thought* experiment: the *concepts* matter, not 
the details of the implementation.


PointedEars
-- 
Q: How many theoretical physicists specializing in general relativity
   does it take to change a light bulb?  
A: Two: one to hold the bulb and one to rotate the universe.
(from: WolframAlpha)

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Thread

Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-19 14:56 +0200
  Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-19 06:00 -0700
  Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-19 14:48 +0000
    Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-19 14:53 +0000
      Re: Train gedanken - again. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2017-09-19 08:05 -0700
        Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-19 09:09 -0700
          Re: Train gedanken - again. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2017-09-19 09:35 -0700
            Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-19 10:45 -0700
        Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-19 22:01 +0000
          Re: Train gedanken - again. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2017-09-20 07:30 -0700
            Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-20 20:00 +0000
  Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-19 07:55 -0700
    Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-19 14:58 +0000
  Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-20 09:18 +1000
    Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-20 04:48 +0200
      Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-20 13:47 +1000
        Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-20 14:33 +0200
          Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 09:05 +1000
            Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-20 16:07 -0700
            Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 01:24 +0200
              Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 12:22 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 15:28 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 15:40 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-29 09:20 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-29 08:49 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-29 12:08 +0000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-29 05:59 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-28 09:22 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 03:08 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-27 20:30 -0700
        Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-20 20:42 +0000
          Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 08:39 +1000
            Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-21 02:18 +0000
              Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 08:25 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 01:37 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 12:34 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 13:30 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 06:44 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-10-10 00:24 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-22 03:02 +0000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 06:50 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-22 22:23 +0000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 10:08 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-23 04:09 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-23 13:32 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-24 09:02 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-24 06:31 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-23 19:37 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 07:26 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-24 16:44 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 08:03 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-24 17:35 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 08:26 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 17:36 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-24 18:24 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 07:34 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 15:49 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 07:56 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-25 00:00 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:47 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-25 00:47 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 23:53 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 19:53 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-25 02:58 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:54 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-09-26 03:15 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-25 10:19 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:56 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-09-26 03:11 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-25 14:43 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-26 01:26 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-26 02:06 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-27 08:39 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:52 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-09-26 03:18 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-25 10:21 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:19 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 15:48 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 08:31 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-24 17:46 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-24 09:30 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2017-09-24 08:04 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-24 08:24 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-23 14:11 +0000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-24 08:53 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-24 02:31 +0000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-24 16:39 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-24 12:34 +0000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 08:30 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-24 22:32 +0000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 09:41 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-25 02:51 +0000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 15:51 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-25 12:48 +0000
    Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-20 11:13 +0200
      Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-20 02:31 -0700
        Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-20 02:34 -0700
          Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-20 03:25 -0700
  Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-19 22:40 -0700
    Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-20 08:08 +0200
      Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 08:46 +1000
    Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-20 08:33 +0200
      Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-20 00:04 -0700
      Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-20 00:34 -0700
        Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-20 00:42 -0700
          Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-20 10:54 +0200
            Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 08:49 +1000
              Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-20 15:59 -0700
              Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 01:54 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 12:43 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 12:56 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-22 11:04 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 07:36 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 01:38 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-27 20:00 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 12:06 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-28 09:30 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 03:04 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-21 20:36 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 07:21 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-26 21:57 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-26 20:57 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-26 21:00 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 15:24 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-27 17:39 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 02:52 +0200
        Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-20 10:48 +0200
    Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-20 15:13 +0200
  Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-20 20:19 +0200
    Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-20 20:02 +0000
    Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 09:10 +1000
      Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-21 12:46 +0200
  Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-20 13:14 -0700
    Re: Train gedanken - again. mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2017-09-20 13:27 -0700
    Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 09:29 +1000
    Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-21 14:03 +0200
      Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-21 05:19 -0700
      Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-21 12:42 +0000
      Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-21 07:24 -0700
        Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-21 22:16 +0200
          Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 08:51 +1000
            Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-22 03:02 +0000
              Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-21 20:18 -0700
          Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-21 20:39 -0700
            Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-21 20:42 -0700
            Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 07:49 +0200
              Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-21 23:51 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 09:04 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 09:08 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-22 00:27 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 11:52 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-22 04:05 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 07:46 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 12:26 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-28 09:31 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 03:01 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-27 20:22 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 12:00 +0200
            Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-22 14:08 +0200
              Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 07:41 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 12:28 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-28 09:32 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 03:02 +0200
          Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-22 07:03 -0700
            Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-22 19:55 +0200
              Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 07:42 +1000
              Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-23 06:55 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-24 11:17 +0200
      Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 08:30 +1000
        Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-22 13:52 +0200
          Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-22 05:34 -0700
          Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 08:05 +1000
            Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-23 15:38 +0200
              Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-24 09:12 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-23 16:17 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-24 11:03 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-24 07:11 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 07:38 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 08:43 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-25 14:38 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-25 07:15 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-25 07:38 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-09-26 04:20 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-26 01:23 -0700
              Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-24 06:48 -0700

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