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Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity

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On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 10:42:32 AM UTC-7, tjrob137 wrote:
> Your objection is valid only in flat spacetime (i.e. without
> gravity), and only for a static physical situation...

The premise of Argument 1 is Newtonian physics in flat space with absolute time, rejecting both special and general relativity.  It claims that we can give a viable alternative account of gravitational redshift purely on the basis of Newtonian physics.  Indeed, some of the links claim this as well.  The claim is false, because Newtonian physics does not entail gravitational time dilation and therefore has no gravitational redshift.  But to explain this, we must work within Newtonian physics.  It is not relevant to say that this isn't how general relativity explains redshift.  That is given.  To refute Argument 1 we must explain why it fails as a viable alternative account on its own terms.

On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 10:42:32 AM UTC-7, tjrob137 wrote:
> "Time dilation" is NOT "different effective time standards". 
> Rather it is a geometrical effect due to geometrical projections
> onto measuring instruments that have different orientations in 
> spacetime.

Relative to an essentially static time coordinate (such as the Schwarzschild time coordinate) in a region with a stationary gravitational field, the rate of proper time for stationary clocks at different gravitational potentials is different, hence the difference in frequency between emission and reception of a steady sequence of objects passing from one stationary clock to the other.  

When talking about foundational issues, it's best to express things in operational terms.  Talking about "geometrical effects" is rarely helpful in discussions like this, because they lead to philosophical chicken-or-egg arguments about whether geometry and kinematics are efficacious or merely descriptive, etc.

On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 10:42:32 AM UTC-7, tjrob137 wrote:
>> It’s true that, in terms of Schwarzschild coordinates, the 
>> radial speed of light is lower near a massive body, so the 
>> coordinate velocity of a pulse of light approaching a massive
>> body decreases, and hence (in this sense) the light decelerates
>> as it falls.
> 
> Hmmm. That is not really a valid "sense" -- the LIGHT does not 
> really "decelerate", the COORDINATES just make it seem to do so.

I don't think it's sensible to say that a specific operationally defined and factual "sense" is "really not a valid sense".  No one disputes that, in terms of Schwarzschild coordinates (the more or less unique static time coordinate in a spherical field), the radial speed of light is lower near a massive body, so the Schwarzschild coordinate velocity of a pulse of light approaching a massive body decreases.  This is a plain fact.  Now, when an operationally meaningful velocity of an entity decreases, it is undeniable that *in this specific sense* the entity is decelerating, by definition.  It's necessary to understand this in order to respond in a useful way to the "-2g" comments.

On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 10:42:32 AM UTC-7, tjrob137 wrote:
>> The same is true for massive particles moving at relativistic speeds.
> 
> Yes. And also for non-relativistic speeds.

Slow-moving particles generally still accelerate toward a massive body, even in terms of Schwarzschild coordinates.  Only when they reach relativistic speeds do their paths decelerate in terms of Schwarzschild coordinates.

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The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Pentcho Valev <pvalev@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-10 03:36 -0700
  Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2016-06-10 12:54 -0700
    Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2016-06-10 22:03 +0200
      Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2016-06-10 18:26 -0700
        Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-10 20:49 -0700
          Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-10 20:56 -0700
            Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-10 21:05 -0700
              Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-11 12:23 -0700
                Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-12 12:44 -0700
            Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2016-06-10 21:20 -0700
              Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-11 00:12 -0700
                Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2016-06-11 11:04 -0700
            Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-11 05:09 -0700
          Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2016-06-11 10:56 -0700
            Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2016-06-11 20:30 +0200
        Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2016-06-11 09:47 +0200
  Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Pentcho Valev <pvalev@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-11 02:28 -0700
    Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity dancouriann@gmail.com - 2016-06-11 09:55 -0700
      Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2016-06-12 12:53 -0700
        Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2016-06-12 22:15 +0200
          Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-12 15:37 -0700
            Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2016-06-12 23:28 -0700
              Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-13 05:44 -0700
      Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2016-06-13 12:42 -0500
        Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity dancouriann@gmail.com - 2016-06-13 13:29 -0700
          Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2016-06-18 18:49 -0500
            Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2016-06-19 06:38 +0200
              Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity paparios <paparios@gmail.com> - 2016-06-19 07:13 -0700
                Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2016-06-19 20:34 +0200
                Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity paparios <paparios@gmail.com> - 2016-06-19 15:21 -0700
                Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2016-06-19 15:41 -0700
                Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2016-06-19 23:35 -0700
                Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity paparios <paparios@gmail.com> - 2016-06-20 08:05 -0700
                Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2016-06-20 17:23 +0200
                Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity paparios <paparios@gmail.com> - 2016-06-20 08:53 -0700
                Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2016-06-20 18:32 +0200
                Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity paparios <paparios@gmail.com> - 2016-06-20 18:32 -0700
                Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2016-06-20 23:15 -0700
                Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity paparios <paparios@gmail.com> - 2016-06-21 05:41 -0700
              Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2016-06-19 12:18 -0500
                Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2016-06-19 20:40 +0200
            Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity dancouriann@gmail.com - 2016-06-19 12:51 -0700
            Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2016-06-19 15:39 -0700
              Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity dancouriann@gmail.com - 2016-06-19 20:34 -0700
                Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2016-06-20 00:13 -0700
                Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity dancouriann@gmail.com - 2016-06-20 08:15 -0700
    Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Pentcho Valev <pvalev@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-13 03:41 -0700
      Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2016-06-13 11:34 -0700
        Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2016-06-13 23:08 -0700
          Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-14 07:15 -0700
      Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Pentcho Valev <pvalev@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 05:05 -0700
        Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 09:46 -0700
        Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Pentcho Valev <pvalev@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 12:34 -0700
          Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 13:30 -0700
          Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 14:53 -0700
  Re: The Nightmare of Einstein's General Relativity Pentcho Valev <pvalev@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-19 15:03 -0700

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