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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #433318

Re: Train gedanken - again.

From Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de>
Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity
Subject Re: Train gedanken - again.
Date 2017-09-22 12:56 +0200
Organization PointedEars Software (PES)
Message-ID <2919823.44csPzL39Z@PointedEars.de> (permalink)
References (4 earlier) <6e0d4d37-4864-40ae-9cc9-74288aeefb13@googlegroups.com> <optabl$57r$1@dont-email.me> <opur9l$5id$2@gioia.aioe.org> <1682251.tdWV9SEqCh@PointedEars.de> <oq1tco$uqm$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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HGW wrote:

> On 22/09/17 09:54, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
>> HGW wrote:
>>> On 20/09/17 18:54, Poutnik wrote:
>>>> When saying A, you have to say B as well.
>>>>
>>>> The aether mentioned in GR context
>>>> has nothing in common with luminoferous aether of aether theories.
>>> ...then why did Einstein say, "a universe without an aether is
>>> unthinkable."
>> Because he thought so.  That does not mean that he was right.
> 
> But he also said his whole theory would collapse if no aether existed...

Cite evidence.

> we already knew that because it was assumed for the source independence
> requirement of his P2.

As I just have said, Einstein did not only postulate one theory.  He also 
did not only postulate two of them, but a great many more (IIRC, the /annus 
mirabilis/ 1905 alone saw 5 revolutionary papers published by him, only 2 
that are now counted as parts of special relativity).

When you are referring to “P2”, you are referring to the second postulate of 
what became known as (the) special (theory of) relativity (SR).  As you have 
been told before, the statement that you are quoting was made, if at all 
(you have not cited evidence yet), in reference to *general* relativity.

Because Einstein explicitly writes in “On the Electrodynamics of Moving 
Bodies”, the first paper of the body of work that we now call “special 
relativity”, that that paper makes the assumption of the ether superfluous.

Those are two different theories, and two different ethers are meant.
You would be well to finally realize that.

>> You see, contrary to popular belief, and the whinings of crackpots here,
>> we (working in science and truly interested in science) now know that
>> Einstein was *wrong* about *many* things, e.g. QM.
> 
> Great! I'm glad you have been influenced by my posts.

You are suffering from megalomania.  I was aware of Einstein’s errors long 
before I read a posting from you.  In contrast to you, however, I was also 
aware of his many more accomplishments.
 
>> That does not mean that we ignore the things about which he was
>> *evidently* right, such as SR and GR, and a lot of other ideas and
>> discoveries that are less known to the general public[1].
> 
> SR was a plagiarized version of Poincare's relativity,

No, it was not.  To begin with, Poincaré introduced the term principle of 
relativity, but he failed to realize that, if one combines that with “P2” 
(principle of light constancy), his assumption of an ether endowed with
/ad hoc/ properties becomes superfluous.

> which assumed the existence of an absolute aether.

And that is one reason why special relativity is not plagiarism.  Another is 
that Einstein, reportedly being terrible at French and other foreign 
languages at the time, could have learned from Poincaré’s idea only through 
a (German-speaking) intermediary.

Besides, it happens often in science that two or more people independently 
come to the same or similar conclusions; that is one reason why the Nobel 
Prize can be shared among up to three people.  Because as knowledge is 
shared in the scientific community, it is likely that two people use the 
same body of knowledge, and sometimes conclusions are inevitable.

As someone (Lorentz or Einstein, I think) said, if Einstein had not 
discovered special relativity, someone else would have.  IIRC the expression 
used was “the time was ripe for the discovery”.
 
>> Because this is just not about Einstein or any other historical figure,
>> not about “gurus” etc.: it is about how finding descriptions that
>> *correctly* *describe* the universe that we live in, so that we may
>> *better* understand it, and make *better* predictions that *help us*
>> thrive and make *progress*.
> 
> No aspect of any of Einstein's theories has been useful anywhere in
> physics.

Patently untrue.

>> In fact, with few exceptions Einstein was his strongest critic (just
>> count
>> the number of “correction” in the titles in [1]).  Because true
>> scientists not only question what has been stated by others before and
>> now, they also
>> question themselves continuously, and correct themselves if necessary. 
>> The lifeblood of science is *well-founded* *skepticism*.
> 
> Of course...It was my own skepticism and perseverance that enabled me to
> prove Einstein's theory impossible and wrong. _

But your skepticism is not well-founded.  You are not employing the 
scientific method, and your arguments are all fallacies.  That is the 
difference.

-- 
PointedEars
FAQ: <http://PointedEars.de/faq> | <http://PointedEars.de/es-matrix>
<https://github.com/PointedEars> | <http://PointedEars.de/wsvn/>
Twitter: @PointedEars2 | Please do not cc me./Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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Thread

Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-19 14:56 +0200
  Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-19 06:00 -0700
  Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-19 14:48 +0000
    Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-19 14:53 +0000
      Re: Train gedanken - again. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2017-09-19 08:05 -0700
        Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-19 09:09 -0700
          Re: Train gedanken - again. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2017-09-19 09:35 -0700
            Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-19 10:45 -0700
        Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-19 22:01 +0000
          Re: Train gedanken - again. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2017-09-20 07:30 -0700
            Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-20 20:00 +0000
  Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-19 07:55 -0700
    Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-19 14:58 +0000
  Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-20 09:18 +1000
    Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-20 04:48 +0200
      Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-20 13:47 +1000
        Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-20 14:33 +0200
          Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 09:05 +1000
            Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-20 16:07 -0700
            Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 01:24 +0200
              Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 12:22 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 15:28 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 15:40 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-29 09:20 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-29 08:49 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-29 12:08 +0000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-29 05:59 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-28 09:22 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 03:08 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-27 20:30 -0700
        Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-20 20:42 +0000
          Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 08:39 +1000
            Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-21 02:18 +0000
              Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 08:25 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 01:37 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 12:34 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 13:30 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 06:44 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-10-10 00:24 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-22 03:02 +0000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 06:50 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-22 22:23 +0000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 10:08 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-23 04:09 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-23 13:32 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-24 09:02 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-24 06:31 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-23 19:37 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 07:26 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-24 16:44 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 08:03 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-24 17:35 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 08:26 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 17:36 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-24 18:24 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 07:34 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 15:49 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 07:56 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-25 00:00 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:47 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-25 00:47 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 23:53 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 19:53 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-25 02:58 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:54 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-09-26 03:15 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-25 10:19 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:56 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-09-26 03:11 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-25 14:43 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-26 01:26 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-26 02:06 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-27 08:39 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:52 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-09-26 03:18 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-25 10:21 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:19 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 15:48 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 08:31 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-24 17:46 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-24 09:30 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2017-09-24 08:04 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-24 08:24 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-23 14:11 +0000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-24 08:53 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-24 02:31 +0000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-24 16:39 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-24 12:34 +0000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 08:30 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-24 22:32 +0000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 09:41 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-25 02:51 +0000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 15:51 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-25 12:48 +0000
    Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-20 11:13 +0200
      Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-20 02:31 -0700
        Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-20 02:34 -0700
          Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-20 03:25 -0700
  Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-19 22:40 -0700
    Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-20 08:08 +0200
      Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 08:46 +1000
    Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-20 08:33 +0200
      Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-20 00:04 -0700
      Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-20 00:34 -0700
        Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-20 00:42 -0700
          Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-20 10:54 +0200
            Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 08:49 +1000
              Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-20 15:59 -0700
              Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 01:54 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 12:43 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 12:56 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-22 11:04 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 07:36 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 01:38 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-27 20:00 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 12:06 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-28 09:30 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 03:04 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-21 20:36 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 07:21 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-26 21:57 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-26 20:57 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-26 21:00 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 15:24 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-27 17:39 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 02:52 +0200
        Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-20 10:48 +0200
    Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-20 15:13 +0200
  Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-20 20:19 +0200
    Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-20 20:02 +0000
    Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 09:10 +1000
      Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-21 12:46 +0200
  Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-20 13:14 -0700
    Re: Train gedanken - again. mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2017-09-20 13:27 -0700
    Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 09:29 +1000
    Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-21 14:03 +0200
      Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-21 05:19 -0700
      Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-21 12:42 +0000
      Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-21 07:24 -0700
        Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-21 22:16 +0200
          Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 08:51 +1000
            Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-22 03:02 +0000
              Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-21 20:18 -0700
          Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-21 20:39 -0700
            Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-21 20:42 -0700
            Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 07:49 +0200
              Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-21 23:51 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 09:04 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 09:08 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-22 00:27 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 11:52 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-22 04:05 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 07:46 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 12:26 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-28 09:31 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 03:01 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-27 20:22 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 12:00 +0200
            Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-22 14:08 +0200
              Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 07:41 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 12:28 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-28 09:32 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 03:02 +0200
          Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-22 07:03 -0700
            Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-22 19:55 +0200
              Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 07:42 +1000
              Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-23 06:55 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-24 11:17 +0200
      Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 08:30 +1000
        Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-22 13:52 +0200
          Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-22 05:34 -0700
          Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 08:05 +1000
            Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-23 15:38 +0200
              Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-24 09:12 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-23 16:17 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-24 11:03 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-24 07:11 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 07:38 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 08:43 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-25 14:38 +0200
                Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-25 07:15 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-25 07:38 -0700
                Re: Train gedanken - again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-09-26 04:20 +1000
                Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-26 01:23 -0700
              Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-24 06:48 -0700

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