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Re: C++ vs Pascal

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On Thursday, March 1, 2012 2:54:50 PM UTC, Mike McCarty wrote:
> On Thursday, March 1, 2012 7:03:44 AM UTC-6, Nick Keighley wrote:

> > I'm-not-starting-a-language-war-but
> >      Lisp has:-
> >        - unusual syntax
> >        - it's a very big langauge
> >        - little out-of-the-box support for modern programming (GUIs,
> > web, etc.)
> 
> Lisp's syntax is not unusual - it's simple.  Extremely simple and intuitive.

ok it's simple. It's /also/ unusual. One mans "intuitive" is another mans.... But we have fallen into pantomime mode.

> Lisp as a basic language is small, very small. 

Common Lisp may have a very small core but I've never found it particularly easy to identify.

> You can teach both the syntax and all of the basic constructs in ~1 hour to a reasonably competent CS student.  

probably. But then basic C or Pascal or Python wouldn't take too long either.

> Enough to write any algorithm a first-year student is likely to write.  I can't think of another language where that is even theoretically possible.

really? I suspect bit banging is a bit difficult in core Lisp. Knuth had a reason for using pseudo-assembler.

What would be difficult in Pascal or Python?

> I'm sort of old-fashioned I suppose, but what does a first-year CS student need with fancy GUIs? 

engage their interest. real world programming actually has to deal with such things. When I was talking about beginner languages I wasn't necessaily thinking of CS students.

> Honestly, they just confuse the issue.  Lisp is an interpreted language 

no. It *may* be an interpreted langauge. The CL standard actually requires a compiler. Stalin Scheme is one of the more aggressive whole program compilers in existence.

> so an interpreter prompt is really all you need 

never quite got the enthusiasm for interpreters. I've programmed in Python but I've never understood why interpreters are super cool. On modern hardware compilers are pretty quick too.

> (okay, a Lisp-aware text editor like emacs would be nice too).

gak.

> My first college CS course was based on Scheme (a LISP variant). 

I've learned, used and like Scheme.

> At the time I thought it was odd, but now I consider it an ideal first-year-CS language.  You don't spend time worrying about syntax, IDEs, etc.  You worry about algorithm design and correctness.  As it should be.

[the new google interface seems to have duplicated the entire post here  :-( ]

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C++ vs Pascal Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 20:02 +0800
  Re: C++ vs Pascal gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 04:12 -0800
    Re: C++ vs Pascal Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 21:15 +0800
      Re: C++ vs Pascal Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 22:26 +0800
      Re: C++ vs Pascal Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-29 08:42 -0800
        Re: C++ vs Pascal Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-01 01:32 +0800
      Re: C++ vs Pascal Andy Champ <no.way@nospam.invalid> - 2012-02-29 21:48 +0000
        Re: C++ vs Pascal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-03 08:02 -0700
          Re: C++ vs Pascal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-03 08:04 -0700
    Re: C++ vs Pascal Mike McCarty <mcmccarty@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 06:26 -0800
      Re: C++ vs Pascal Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 22:28 +0800
      Re: C++ vs Pascal Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-29 08:49 -0800
        Re: C++ vs Pascal Dombo <dombo@disposable.invalid> - 2012-02-29 19:56 +0100
        Re: C++ vs Pascal Quint Rankid <qbr567@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 10:31 -0800
          Re: C++ vs Pascal Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-02-29 21:25 +0000
            Re: C++ vs Pascal Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-01 05:04 -0800
              Re: C++ vs Pascal gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-03-01 06:29 -0800
                Re: C++ vs Pascal Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-01 23:07 +0800
                Re: C++ vs Pascal nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-03-02 00:27 -0800
          Re: C++ vs Pascal Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-01 05:03 -0800
            Re: C++ vs Pascal Mike McCarty <mcmccarty@gmail.com> - 2012-03-01 06:54 -0800
              Re: C++ vs Pascal nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-03-02 00:41 -0800
                Re: C++ vs Pascal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-03 09:41 -0700
              Re: C++ vs Pascal Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-02 23:24 +0800
                Re: C++ vs Pascal nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-03-03 06:40 -0800
                Re: C++ vs Pascal glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-03-03 20:57 +0000
                Re: C++ vs Pascal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-03 15:19 -0700
                Re: C++ vs Pascal glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-03-03 22:52 +0000
                Re: C++ vs Pascal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-03 17:12 -0700
            Re: C++ vs Pascal Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2012-03-02 09:55 +0900
            Re: C++ vs Pascal Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-03-02 11:03 +0000
              Re: C++ vs Pascal nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-03-02 05:01 -0800
          Re: C++ vs Pascal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-03 08:56 -0700
    Re: C++ vs Pascal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-03 07:49 -0700
  Re: C++ vs Pascal Quint Rankid <qbr567@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 10:20 -0800
    Re: C++ vs Pascal Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-01 02:26 +0800
    Re: C++ vs Pascal Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-02-29 21:36 +0000
    Re: C++ vs Pascal "Asger Joergensen" <Junk@Asger-P.dk> - 2012-02-29 23:24 +0000
  Re: C++ vs Pascal Donkey Hottie <donkey@fredriksson.dy.fi> - 2012-03-01 00:02 +0200
    Re: C++ vs Pascal Brian Drummond <brian@shapes.demon.co.uk> - 2012-02-29 23:50 +0000

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