Binary translation (was: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle)

From	anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups	comp.arch
Subject	Binary translation (was: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle)
Date	2026-10-23 08:13 +0000
Organization	Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID	<2026Oct23.101307@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <memo.20261020202111.15264J@jgd.cix.co.uk> <11bb7b6$93g4$1@dont-email.me> <1792685413-5857@newsgrouper.org> <2026Oct22.184735@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <jwvmrs5jzge.fsf-monnier+comp.arch@gnu.org>

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Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>Anton Ertl [2026-10-22 16:47:35] wrote:
>> That may have to do with the target that they translated to.  Intel
>> and HP could not get this architecture style to perform well on
>> general-purpose programs even when targeting it directly, so why
>> should it perform well with a dynamic binary translator?
>> OTOH, it seems to work ok for Apple with Rosetta.
>
>I can see 2 important differences:
>
>- Does the ISA you're emulating have an actively developed hardware
>  implementation against which you're going to have to compete?

It's the same ISA in both cases.  You could argue that Intel-based
Macs are the only competition for Mac users, but the brand loyalty of
Mac users would be another important difference.

Certainly the Windows on ARM efforts have to compete with Windows
computers running on AMD64 hardware implementations.  I read about
slowdowns from binary translation by a factor of 2.

>- Do you expect to spend 99% of your time emulating a foreign ISA, or do
>  you expect to mostly run binaries using your native ISA and just
>  occasionally emulate another?

That's an important one.  Microsoft tries to get the ISVs of the most
popular software to support ARM A64, and hopes that's enough to
commoditize their complement
<https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/>.
Apparently they do not consider the Intel/AMD competition to be enough
for a commodity, or maybe the the reason is that on Intel and AMD
processors Linux commiditizes Windows to some extent; the latter
suggests that the Linux non-compatibility of Windows-on-ARM hardware
is intended (IIRC some Linix hardware company tried to get Linux to
run on the CPUs of the first Windows-on-ARM laptops, but eventually
gave up).

Anyway, the jury is still out on whether Windows on ARM works this
time.

- anton
-- 
'Anyone trying for "industrial quality" ISA should avoid undefined behavior.'
  Mitch Alsup, <c17fcd89-f024-40e7-a594-88a85ac10d20o@googlegroups.com>

Thread

Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-18 18:39 +0000
  Re: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-18 18:47 +0000
    Re: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-18 22:00 +0000
      Re: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-20 17:12 +0000
  Re: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2026-10-20 20:21 +0100
    Re: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-10-21 15:28 -0500
      Re: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-10-22 04:52 +0000
        Re: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-10-22 23:42 +0100
      Re: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-22 16:10 +0000
        Re: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-22 16:47 +0000
          Re: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-10-22 20:23 -0500
            Binary translation (was: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-23 07:55 +0000
              Re: Binary translation BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-10-23 03:50 -0500
                Re: Binary translation anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-23 16:21 +0000
                Re: Binary translation jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2026-10-23 23:51 +0100
              Re: Binary translation antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-10-25 00:10 +0000
                Re: Binary translation aph@littlepinkcloud.invalid - 2026-10-25 19:49 +0000
          Re: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-10-22 15:45 -0400
            Binary translation (was: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-23 08:13 +0000
              Re: Binary translation (was: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-23 12:24 +0300
                Re: Binary translation (was: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-23 16:41 +0000
              Re: Binary translation (was: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle) jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2026-10-23 23:51 +0100
            Re: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-23 14:53 +0000
              Re: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-23 15:08 +0000
          Re: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2026-10-23 17:22 +0100
            Re: Almost Ready to Repeat the Cycle anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-23 21:20 +0000

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