Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.c > #396094

Re: On Undefined Behavior

From Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: On Undefined Behavior
Date 2026-01-02 22:52 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <20260102135350.74@kylheku.com> (permalink)
References <10j6qdt$3q9n4$1@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

On 2026-01-01, highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> wrote:
> Wouldn't it be more sensible to have a compilation error, or
> at least a warning?

It would in that case, but it's very difficult to specify that into the
language standard as a requirement such that all implementations must
produce a diagnostic.

If we wanted to diagnose situations similar to the ones in your
example program, we would have two departures from the way the
language is now.

The first is that we would need to formalize the concept of error versus
warning diagnostics. Currently there are only diagnostics. Currently,
when the implementation is required to diagnose a program, that program
is deemed to be incorrect: it violates a syntax or semantic
constraint rule. It is not required to be translated, and if it is
translated and linked, it doesn't have well-defined behavior at all.

Warnings are diagnostics for situations that are not confirmed
incorrect, but only suspected.

Compilers typically treat some ISO-C-required diagnostics as warnings.
For instance, GNU C issues only a warning when pointers are converted
without a cast. But ISO C allows it to stop translating.

For the situation in your program, it would be unacceptable to have
implementations stop translating. We really want just a warning (at
least by default; in specific project and situations, developers
could elect to treat certain warnings as fatal, even standard-required
warnings.)

The second new thing is that to diagnose this, we need to make
diagnosis dependent on reachability.

We want a rule which is something like "whenever the body of
a function, or an initializing expression for an external definition
reaches an expression which has unconditional undefined behavior
that is not an unreachability assertion and not a documented
extension, a warning diagnostic must be issued".

This "reaches" has a problem because it requires the implementation to
solve the halting problem. We should restrict that to just "statically
obvious" or "trivial" reachability whereby without having to reason
about unknown run-time values, we can infer that a statement or
expression is unconditionally reached.

This kind of diagnostic would be a good thing in my opinion; just
nobody has stepped up to the plate because of the challenges:

- introducing the concept of a warning versus error diagnostic.

- defining a clear set of rules for trivial reachability which
  can catch the majority of these situations without too much
  complexity. (The C++ rules for functions that return value
  reaching their end without a return statement can be used
  as inspiration here.)

- specifying exactly what "statically obvious" undefined behavior
  is and how positively determine that a certain expression
  exhibits it.

-- 
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca

Back to comp.lang.c | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-01 22:54 +0100
  Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-02 00:26 +0200
    Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-01 23:57 +0100
    Re: On Undefined Behavior Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-01-02 22:56 +0000
      Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-03 20:48 +0200
      Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-04 14:38 +0100
        Re: On Undefined Behaviour Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-04 21:42 +0000
          Re: On Undefined Behaviour candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2026-01-07 06:40 +0000
        Re: On Undefined Behavior James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-04 16:58 -0500
          Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-05 08:49 +0100
  Re: On Undefined Behavior James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-01 17:49 -0500
  Re: On Undefined Behavior antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-02 05:53 +0000
    Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-02 17:38 +0100
      Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-03 13:30 +0100
  Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-02 10:31 +0100
    Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-02 17:51 +0100
      Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-03 13:42 +0100
        Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-03 14:42 +0100
          Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-03 17:51 +0100
            Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-04 00:20 +0100
  Re: On Undefined Behavior Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-01-02 22:52 +0000
    Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-03 23:47 +0100
      Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-04 12:58 +0100
  Re: On Undefined Behavior Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-03 07:53 -0800
    Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-04 00:15 +0100
      NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-04 00:25 +0100
        Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-03 18:59 -0500
          Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-04 15:51 +0000
            Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-05 08:55 +0100
        Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-03 17:24 -0800
          Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-04 02:19 +0000
            Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-03 21:31 -0500
              Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-04 04:52 +0000
                Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-04 13:00 -0500
                Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-04 21:22 +0000
                Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-04 16:53 -0500
                Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-05 00:16 +0000
                Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-05 06:41 -0500
                Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-05 09:07 +0100
            Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-04 15:56 +0000
          Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-03 18:44 -0800
        Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-04 17:16 +0100
          Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-06 13:08 +0000
            Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-06 21:59 +0000
            Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-07 20:48 -0800
              Re: NULL dereference in embedded [was: On Undefined Behavior] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-08 23:56 +0000
  Re: On Undefined Behavior Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-03 23:14 +0000
  Re: On Undefined Behavior "Paul J. Lucas" <paul@lucasmail.org> - 2026-01-03 17:10 -0800
    Re: On Undefined Behavior highcrew <high.crew3868@fastmail.com> - 2026-01-04 12:51 +0100
      Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-05 15:39 +0100
        Re: On Undefined Behavior "Paul J. Lucas" <paul@lucasmail.org> - 2026-01-06 18:08 -0800
          Re: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-07 11:25 +0100
          Re: On Undefined Behavior James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-07 06:31 -0500
          Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-07 14:10 +0200
  Re: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-09 01:42 -0800
    Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-09 14:36 +0200
      Re: On Undefined Behavior Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-01-09 20:14 +0000
        Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-10 18:19 +0200
        Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-10 18:41 +0200
          Re: On Undefined Behavior Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-01-13 23:31 +0000
            Re: On Undefined Behavior antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-14 03:57 +0000
            Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-14 10:47 +0200
            Re: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-14 14:49 +0000
        Re: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-10 17:08 +0000
      Re: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-11 11:48 -0800
        Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-11 22:52 +0200
          Re: On Undefined Behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-01-11 22:53 -0800
            Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-12 11:44 +0200
              Re: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-12 20:29 -0500
          Re: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-02-03 05:29 -0800
  Re: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-09 15:54 +0200
    Re: On Undefined Behavior wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2026-01-10 00:08 +0800
  UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-12 16:28 +0200
    Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-01-12 15:58 +0000
      Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-12 20:08 +0200
        Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-12 20:02 +0000
          Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-12 21:09 -0500
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-13 11:31 +0200
              Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 22:21 -0500
        Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 22:19 -0500
          Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-14 09:35 +0100
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-14 17:23 +0000
              Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-14 12:53 -0800
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-01-14 14:43 -0800
              Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-15 11:45 +0100
                Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-15 06:16 -0500
                Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-01-15 04:04 -0800
                Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-15 13:56 +0100
                Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-02-03 05:34 -0800
                Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-15 15:10 +0000
                Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-15 16:23 +0100
      Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-13 21:54 +0000
        Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 21:58 -0500
          Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-01-13 22:02 -0800
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-14 14:24 +0000
              Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-14 16:48 +0200
    Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-12 08:03 -0800
      Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-12 19:36 +0200
        Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-01-12 12:03 -0800
          Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-12 22:41 +0200
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-01-13 09:12 +0100
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior pa@see.signature.invalid (Pierre Asselin) - 2026-01-13 20:19 +0000
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 22:20 -0500
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-02-03 21:53 -0800
          Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-13 23:53 +0000
            Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-14 08:06 +0000
        Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-01-13 08:11 -0800
          Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 22:10 -0500
          Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-03-01 22:53 -0800
        Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-13 22:20 -0500
    Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior "James Russell Kuyper Jr." <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-01-12 20:35 -0500
      Re: UB or not UB? was: On Undefined Behavior Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-13 11:07 +0200
  Re: On Undefined Behavior Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-13 20:37 +0000

csiph-web