Re: How do you remember the stack?

From	anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: How do you remember the stack?
Date	2016-02-22 15:41 +0000
Organization	Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID	<2016Feb22.164131@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <9afbf54f-7a44-4a29-8524-6854d7678fd0@googlegroups.com> <2016Feb21.173543@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <56ca0337$0$24033$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> <2016Feb22.105217@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <56cb082a$0$24092$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>

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Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> writes:
>anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>>when the pain from that gets big enough to overcome the insistence on
>>bug-for-bug compatibility, eventually you replace it with something
>>written from scratch, probably with a specification coming out of
>>requirements engineering rather than from the old software; of course
>>with a high probablility of failure.
...
>A specification from requirements reverse engineering? Ha ha.

I never heard about "requirements reverse engineering", and neither
has Google.  I wrote about "a specification coming out of requirements
engineering rather than from the old software".  "Requirements
engineering", you know, talking to users, looking at what they need to
do, etc.

>This is no comparison to situations like Eldo
>or Elizabeths infamous example of the airport luggage.
>Such large systems can be replaced piecemeal, but the way
>working system -> specifications -> working system
>is an illusion.

As far as I read about the Riad airport system, they started from the
requirements after their predecessors had failed.  There was no
working computer-based system that they had to replace.

>Than Archimeded law kicks in: if you continue making noticable
>improvements, you end up with a certain level of quality.

Not sure what this has to do with Archimedes, but the typical case for
messy software is that you are afraid to make big changes, because the
software then stops working, and you don't know how to fix it.  So you
make small additions here and there, and the software becomes bigger
and messier.  That process continues until it becomes so hard to do
changes that people either stop doing changes, go for the
rewrite-from-scratch route, or rewrite substantial portions over a
relatively long time of not doing significant new releases.

The latter cases are rare AFAIK, but Mozilla and maybe gcc seem to be
examples of that happening.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2015: http://www.rigwit.co.uk/EuroForth2015/

Thread

How do you remember the stack? laheadle@gmail.com - 2016-02-12 13:57 -0800
  Re: How do you remember the stack? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-02-12 14:08 -0800
    Re: How do you remember the stack? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-02-16 13:35 +1100
      Re: How do you remember the stack? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-02-15 19:28 -0800
      Re: How do you remember the stack? Whammo <sidciavic@gmail.com> - 2016-02-15 19:54 -0800
      Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-02-16 07:28 +0000
        Re: How do you remember the stack? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-02-15 22:03 -1000
          Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-02-16 13:30 +0000
            Re: How do you remember the stack? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-02-16 08:20 -1000
              Re: How do you remember the stack? dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> - 2016-02-16 20:48 +0000
              Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-02-17 15:42 +0000
          Re: How do you remember the stack? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-02-18 18:48 +1100
            Re: How do you remember the stack? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-02-18 12:27 -0800
              Re: How do you remember the stack? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 14:53 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 15:18 -0800
              Re: How do you remember the stack? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-02-21 13:32 +1100
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-02-20 20:57 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-02-21 07:23 +0200
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-02-21 08:54 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-02-21 22:05 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-02-22 16:20 +0100
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-02-22 09:47 -0600
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Whammo <sidciavic@gmail.com> - 2016-02-23 16:51 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-02-28 15:22 +1100
                Re: How do you remember the stack? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-02-27 21:30 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-02-27 21:33 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-02-27 21:39 -1000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-02-29 13:47 +1100
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-02-28 19:02 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 22:26 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-02-28 22:37 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-02-28 19:11 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-02-29 11:55 -0600
                Re: How do you remember the stack? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-02-29 19:30 -1000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-03-02 00:49 +1100
                Re: How do you remember the stack? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-03-01 13:50 -1000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-01 16:49 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-03-01 18:04 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-03-02 02:53 -0600
                Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-03-02 09:57 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 03:21 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-03-02 11:49 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 04:23 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-03-02 18:32 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-03-02 18:41 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-03-02 20:36 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-03-03 07:38 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-03-03 09:26 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-03-03 11:15 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-03-03 15:35 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-03-03 15:56 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-03-03 17:04 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Whammo <sidciavic@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 19:29 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-02-28 18:52 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Whammo <sidciavic@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 13:30 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-02-29 07:55 +0100
                Re: How do you remember the stack? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-02-29 19:34 -1000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-03-01 20:40 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Unknown <dog@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 05:46 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-06-02 08:48 +0200
                Re: How do you remember the stack? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-06-02 00:17 -0700
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-02 19:48 -0700
                Re: How do you remember the stack? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-06-02 20:34 -0700
                Re: How do you remember the stack? "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-22 19:23 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-02-25 20:31 +1100
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-02-25 07:44 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-02-25 20:22 +0100
                Re: How do you remember the stack? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-02-28 13:43 +1100
                Re: How do you remember the stack? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-02-27 21:43 -1000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-02-28 14:53 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-02-28 15:27 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 02:02 -0700
                Re: How do you remember the stack? JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2016-06-03 05:57 -0700
      Re: How do you remember the stack? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-03-01 16:38 +0000
  Re: How do you remember the stack? Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-02-12 16:31 -0800
  Re: How do you remember the stack? Whammo <sidciavic@gmail.com> - 2016-02-12 17:31 -0800
  Re: How do you remember the stack? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-02-13 08:03 +0100
  Re: How do you remember the stack? dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> - 2016-02-13 08:06 +0000
    Re: How do you remember the stack? minforth@arcor.de - 2016-02-13 01:50 -0800
      Re: How do you remember the stack? mhx@iae.nl - 2016-02-13 03:22 -0800
        Re: How do you remember the stack? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-02-13 17:09 +0000
      Re: How do you remember the stack? mhx@iae.nl - 2016-02-13 03:39 -0800
      Re: How do you remember the stack? mhx@iae.nl - 2016-02-13 03:42 -0800
      Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-02-13 11:27 +0000
        Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-02-13 12:33 +0000
          Re: How do you remember the stack? minforth@arcor.de - 2016-02-15 01:05 -0800
      Re: How do you remember the stack? dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> - 2016-02-14 19:34 +0000
  Re: How do you remember the stack? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-02-13 06:43 -0800
    Re: How do you remember the stack? minforth@arcor.de - 2016-02-15 01:22 -0800
      Re: How do you remember the stack? dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> - 2016-02-15 09:48 +0000
      Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-02-15 09:53 +0000
        Re: How do you remember the stack? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-02-15 11:26 +0000
          Re: How do you remember the stack? minforth@arcor.de - 2016-02-15 04:53 -0800
            Re: How do you remember the stack? dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> - 2016-02-15 17:06 +0000
              Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-02-16 14:57 +0000
          Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-02-16 14:14 +0000
      Re: How do you remember the stack? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-02-15 12:31 +0200
      Re: How do you remember the stack? Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2016-02-18 22:53 +0000
  Re: How do you remember the stack? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2016-02-13 10:51 -0500
  Re: How do you remember the stack? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-02-14 10:18 +1100
  Re: How do you remember the stack? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-02-14 04:21 -0600
  Re: How do you remember the stack? Whammo <sidciavic@gmail.com> - 2016-02-20 14:36 -0800
    Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-02-21 16:35 +0000
      Re: How do you remember the stack? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-02-21 18:34 +0000
        Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-02-22 09:52 +0000
          Re: How do you remember the stack? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-02-22 13:07 +0000
            Re: How do you remember the stack? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-02-22 15:41 +0000
              Re: How do you remember the stack? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-02-22 08:24 -1000
            Re: How do you remember the stack? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-02-22 08:21 -1000
              Re: How do you remember the stack? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-02-22 17:51 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-02-22 18:15 -0800
                Re: How do you remember the stack? "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-29 06:20 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-02 20:42 +0000
                Re: How do you remember the stack? "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-02 20:13 +0000
  Re: How do you remember the stack? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-02-22 01:46 -0800

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