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Groups > comp.os.linux.advocacy > #321193

Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails!

From Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com>
Newsgroups comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails!
Date 2015-09-17 01:40 +0200
Organization albasani.net
Message-ID <20150917014024.27a4f810@maxa-pc> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <d5u826Ftm0U1@mid.individual.net> <fsamd8.fajds@rooftop.invalid> <d5u94qFtm0U3@mid.individual.net> <sfdnmv93.daf@rooftop.invalid> <d5ubmeF1m9bU1@mid.individual.net>

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On 16 Sep 2015 23:18:39 GMT
Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Sep 2015 23:08:15 +0000, owl wrote:
> 
> > Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 16 Sep 2015 22:27:51 +0000, owl wrote:
> > 
> >>> Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 16 Sep 2015 21:50:50 +0000, owl wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>>> Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:12:01 -0500, chrisv wrote:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Nobody wrote:
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>"Canonical founder Mark Shuttleworth also replied
> >>>>>>>>matter-of-factly. “As David said, we learned that the
> >>>>>>>>Deb based package system
> >>>> wasn’t
> >>>>>>>>workable for a store. The work on Ubuntu phone led us to
> >>>>>>>>snappy, where we put the developer of a typical app almost
> >>>>>>>>completely in control of publication.”"
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> It's very puzzling, very cult-like, that assholes like "Lloyd"
> >>>>>>> take pleasure in the "failure" of such a small business, an
> >>>>>>> alternative product with little apparent significance.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> No pleasure taken, just noting that the failures exist and
> >>>>>> that you linux loonies are a big part of that problem.  How
> >>>>>> many of you bought software in their software center?
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Never heard of it.  What were they selling?
> >>>>> 
> >>>> Software obviously.  Try to keep up!  :)
> >>> 
> >>> Well there's teh problem right there.  Trying to *sell* software.
> >>> LOL.  What were they thinking?  Seriously, what software were they
> >>> selling?  I've bought software in the past.  $thousands and
> >>> $thousands worth over the years.  I'd say at least two thousand
> >>> of that was Linux-related.  Hell, I just paid a couple hundred
> >>> for vmware 11, and 12 is out now i believe.  I'll probably
> >>> upgrade in the near future.
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>>>>  Hell, how many of you bought and/or donated to
> >>>>>> Canonical to help ensure the success of a small business that
> >>>>>> is trying to get Linux on the desktop to be a viable and
> >>>>>> profitable product?
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Unity sucks.  Why give those fuckers money?
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> I know the answer, ABSOLUTELY NONE OF YOU!
> >>>>>>  
> >>>>>>  
> >>>>> Why should we?
> >>> 
> >>>> Because you are the one wanting some growth in desktop linux
> >>>> marketshare.
> >>> 
> >>> I couldn't care less about that.
> >>> 
> >>>> Do you think the tooth fairy is going to help with that?  Or is
> >>>> it possible that the 'advocates' and 'supporters' should be
> >>>> putting up a little cash?
> >>> 
> >>> Linux is not Canonical.  Linux is doing fine.  Nobody cares if
> >>> Canonical dies off.  Just another blip on the timeline.
> > 
> >> Slight correction, linux on the desktop is doing fine in the
> >> hobbyist/ developer market and is finding some much smaller
> >> acceptance beyond that.  And that will not change until attitudes
> >> change no matter how good linux on the desktop is or gets to be.
> > 
> >> Canonical and others have tried to monetize linux desktop and have
> >> found no market.
> > 
> > No market for their crap.  What were they selling again?  Unity? 
> > Support?
> > Peace on Earth and goodwill toward man?
> > 
> Application software, which you probably already knew.  But the tone
> of your comments speaks to the larger issue.  And that is the
> extremely piss poor attitude of the linux community as a group. "I
> don't like it so it must suck" is not a valid complaint, it is just
> bitching.  A possible future linux desktop user would be totally put
> off by comments like that.
> 
> Add it to the long list of why linux desktop is such an abject
> failure despite being a pretty good OS overall.
> 
> >>  And with the 'free and open' nature of linux it never will
> >> happen.  Couple that with the really piss poor attitudes of some
> >> very vociferous 'advocates' and 'supporters' and you have the sure
> >> fire formula for commercial failure.
> > 
> > What's the explanation for Apple's massive failure to capture the
> > desktop after all these years and billions?
> 
> That's got to be the most ignorant of questions.  For Apple to take
> over the desktop market, they would have had to cover all segments.

Apple does not compete in OS market at all. They compete in hardware
market and that is completely different category. If they let OSX in
the wild it would take over OS desktop market in no time...

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An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 19:04 +0000
  Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Nobody <nobody@invalid.com> - 2015-09-15 19:48 -0500
    Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2015-09-15 20:57 -0400
      Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 01:04 +0000
    Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 01:02 +0000
      Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Nobody <nobody@invalid.com> - 2015-09-15 20:11 -0500
        Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 01:18 +0000
          Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Nobody <nobody@invalid.com> - 2015-09-15 20:26 -0500
            Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 12:20 +0000
    Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-16 10:12 -0500
      Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-16 10:43 -0700
      Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 18:25 +0000
        Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-16 21:50 +0000
          Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 22:16 +0000
            Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-16 22:27 +0000
              Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 22:35 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-16 23:08 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 23:18 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-16 23:35 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2015-09-16 18:46 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-17 00:22 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 00:44 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-16 18:01 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2015-09-17 09:36 +0200
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-09-17 14:06 +0200
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 12:39 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-17 08:08 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 10:39 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 10:53 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 10:41 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2015-09-18 07:52 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-18 07:57 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2015-09-18 17:56 +0200
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-18 09:11 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2015-09-18 12:39 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-18 11:17 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! "A.M" <.m@nsn.s> - 2015-09-18 12:46 -0400
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-18 10:26 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2015-09-18 15:24 +0200
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-18 08:42 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2015-09-18 16:04 +0200
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-18 08:01 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-18 08:05 -0700
                Peter Köhlmann thinks UNIX did not exist before OS X Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 10:49 -0700
                Snit Michael Glasser lying his ass off (again) Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2015-09-17 21:47 +0200
                Re: Snit Michael Glasser lying his ass off (again) Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 13:04 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Siri Cruz <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-17 11:09 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2015-09-17 13:13 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 13:07 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Siri Cruz <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-17 14:03 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-17 03:25 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2015-09-17 08:02 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-17 13:45 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 17:14 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-16 17:33 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-17 03:17 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-16 20:50 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2015-09-17 09:44 +0200
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 10:52 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2015-09-17 21:50 +0200
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 13:04 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 22:49 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 16:05 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Nobody <nobody@invalid.com> - 2015-09-17 19:25 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 17:33 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-17 14:23 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 10:43 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2015-09-17 08:09 -0400
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-17 13:50 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 17:07 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2015-09-17 22:03 -0400
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-16 17:24 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-09-17 01:40 +0200
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2015-09-16 18:46 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 00:45 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 00:48 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Nobody <nobody@invalid.com> - 2015-09-16 23:55 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 12:36 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 12:44 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Nobody <nobody@invalid.com> - 2015-09-17 19:01 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 00:05 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Nobody <nobody@invalid.com> - 2015-09-17 20:36 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 18:44 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why bitter iCultists fail! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 17:55 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why bitter iCultists fail! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 18:00 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why bitter iCultists fail! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-18 13:56 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why bitter iCultists fail! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 19:11 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why bitter iCultists fail! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-18 13:13 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why bitter iCultists fail! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 20:42 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why bitter iCultists fail! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-18 13:59 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why bitter iCultists fail! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 21:07 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why bitter iCultists fail! GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com> - 2015-09-18 15:47 -0600
                Re: An example of how/why bitter iCultists fail! -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2015-09-18 17:17 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why bitter iCultists fail! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-18 17:40 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why bitter iCultists fail! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-18 17:24 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2015-09-18 20:55 -0400
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2015-09-18 07:49 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 13:09 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2015-09-18 09:26 -0400
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! "A.M" <.m@nsn.s> - 2015-09-18 10:01 -0400
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 17:42 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 17:58 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-16 18:02 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Nobody <nobody@invalid.com> - 2015-09-16 23:21 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 12:34 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Nobody <nobody@invalid.com> - 2015-09-17 19:04 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! "A.M" <.m@nsn.s> - 2015-09-16 19:44 -0400
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2015-09-16 18:48 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-17 03:32 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-16 20:53 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! "A.M" <.m@nsn.s> - 2015-09-17 08:45 -0400
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 12:51 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 11:04 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 10:55 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! "A.M" <.m@nsn.s> - 2015-09-17 08:40 -0400
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-17 14:29 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! "A.M" <.m@nsn.s> - 2015-09-17 12:35 -0400
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2015-09-17 18:51 +0200
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 17:05 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 17:05 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-16 17:22 -0700
      Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2015-09-17 06:49 -0700
        Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-17 14:05 +0000
          Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2015-09-17 07:48 -0700
            Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-17 15:35 +0000
          Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! "A.M" <.m@nsn.s> - 2015-09-17 12:32 -0400
            Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2015-09-17 10:42 -0700
            Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-17 19:54 +0000
          Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 17:09 +0000
            Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-17 19:48 +0000
              Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2015-09-17 14:59 -0500
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-17 22:15 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 22:19 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2015-09-17 22:33 +0000
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 15:54 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 15:55 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2015-09-17 19:20 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 15:52 -0700
                Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Nobody <nobody@invalid.com> - 2015-09-17 19:24 -0500
              Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 13:06 -0700
            Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-09-17 13:07 -0700
    Re: An example of how/why commercial linux desktop fails! JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2015-09-16 15:11 -0500

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