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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #34577
| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? |
| Date | 2014-11-23 14:24 +0000 |
| Organization | Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien |
| Message-ID | <2014Nov23.152403@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink) |
| References | <38ce3d1c-72a5-45fc-8672-aa3ce52e9099@googlegroups.com> <m4ehg0$8og$1@dont-email.me> <354f6fc9-7a56-4e7f-9336-2c3aa0003eb5@googlegroups.com> |
Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes:
>Well, forth may be just a language, but it has an explicit stack which will=
> make its life harder on register based architectures.
Harder than what? Sure, standard Forth needs extra effort compared to
PAF [ertl13-paf] for code that does not follow PAF restrictions, and
such code will be relatively slow. But every language has it's warts;
e.g., C has varargs, and they prevent tail call elimination.
In general, though, Forth has been designed as a language close to
hardware, and as a result, is relatively easy to implement on
hardware, even 44 years after its conception.
The stacks were originally designed to reside in memory, but the
actual usage is such that nearly all stack items can be mapped to
registers [ertl92]. No special stack hardware is needed.
Even for languages that are much farther from the hardware than Forth,
architectural support has not really caught on. E.g., SPARC has
special support for tagged data, but at least one significant LISP
compiler (Franz LISP IIRC) did not use that, as the benefits were not
enough to justify the additional implementation costs (the compiler
also had to implement a solution for architectures without such
instructions, and the tagging support in SPARC did not quite fit the
model that was best for the other architectures).
>Forth can compete wi=
>th C compilers on older processors with very few registers (Z80, HC08, etc)=
> where the C is forced to do parameter passing on stack, like the forth. On=
> the new architectures with lots of registers, there is virtually no parame=
>ter passing on stack anymore, almost all parameters are passed in registers=
>. This is hard to fit in a forth compiler.
Not really. It does take some effort, though.
> All that a forth compiler can do=
> is to optimize the local body of a function to use registers as much as po=
>ssible, and the resulting code will hardly look like the original source. I=
> don't know if this is good or bad, C uses the same approach, but C at leas=
>t doesn't claim to be REPL, and when forth looses its REPL, what else it re=
>mains?
Others have pointed out that the text interpreter (REPL) has nothing
to do with what the generated code looks like. But maybe you were
thinking of SEE, not the text interpreter. In a sophisticated Forth
system, one may have several ways to look at the source code or the
generated code of a word; e.g., Gforth has (from the most source-like
to the most target-like) Emacs or vi tags-search, SEE, SIMPLE-SEE, and
SEE-CODE. What is best to use depends on what one ist doing.
@InProceedings{ertl13-paf,
author = {M. Anton Ertl},
title = {{PAF}: A Portable Assembly Language},
crossref = {euroforth13},
pages = {30--38},
url = {http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/euroforth/ef13/papers/ertl-paf.pdf},
OPTnote = {not refereed},
abstract = {A portable assembly language provides access to
machine-level features like memory addresses,
machine words, code addresses, and modulo
arithmetics, like assembly language, but abstracts
away differences between architectures like the
assembly language syntax, instruction encoding,
register set size, and addressing modes. Forth
already satisfies a number of the characteristics of
a portable assembly language, and is therefore a
good basis. This paper presents PAF, a portable
assembly language based on Forth, and specifically
discusses language features that other portable
assembly languages do not have, and their benefits;
it also discusses the differences from Forth. The
main innovations of PAF are: tags indicate the
control flow for indirect branches and calls; and
PAF has two kinds of calls and definitions: the ABI
ones follow the platform's calling convention and
are useful for interfacing to the outside world,
while the PAF ones allow tail-call elimination and
are useful for implementing general control
structures.}
}
@InProceedings{ertl92,
author = "M. Anton Ertl",
title = "A New Approach to {Forth} Native Code Generation",
crossref = "euroforth92",
pages = "73--78",
url = "http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/papers/ertl92.ps.gz",
abstract = "RAFTS is a framework for applying state of the art
compiler technology to the compilation of Forth. The
heart of RAFTS is a simple method for transforming
Forth programs into data flow graphs and static
single assignment form. Standard code generation and
optimization techniques can be applied to programs in
these forms. Specifically, RAFTS uses interprocedural
register allocation to eliminate nearly all stack
accesses. It also removes nearly all stack pointer
updates. Inlining and tail call optimization reduce
the call overhead. RAFTS compiles all of Forth,
including difficult cases like unknown stack heights,
{\tt PICK}, {\tt ROLL} and {\tt EXECUTE}. And last,
but not least, RAFTS is designed for interactive
Forth systems; it is not restricted to batch
compilers"
}
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2014: http://www.euroforth.org/ef14/
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Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-11-17 14:24 +0000
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Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-11-29 15:27 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-11-29 19:04 +0100
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Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-11-25 16:04 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-25 14:48 -0500
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-11-26 00:49 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-25 21:07 -0500
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Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-11-27 15:59 +0000
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Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-11-28 15:44 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-11-28 10:35 -0600
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-11-29 15:38 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-11-29 19:10 +0100
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-11-30 16:09 +0000
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Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-12-05 19:02 +0100
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-06 12:09 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-12-06 06:45 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-12-06 19:58 +0100
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-07 13:39 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-07 08:04 -0800
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Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-12-11 23:46 +0100
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Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-11-23 20:57 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-11-24 03:59 -0600
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-11-24 02:14 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-11-24 06:09 -0600
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-11-24 11:04 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-11-24 11:49 -1000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-11-24 13:57 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-11-24 12:28 -1000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-11-24 14:50 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-11-24 13:22 -1000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-11-24 16:15 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-11-24 14:38 -1000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-11-25 01:52 +0100
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-11-25 11:43 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-11-25 03:35 -0600
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-11-25 09:37 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-11-26 03:57 -0600
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-11-25 11:16 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-25 02:06 -0500
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-11-24 21:40 -1000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-11-24 23:57 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-25 03:37 -0500
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-11-25 03:43 -0600
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-11-25 15:26 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-11-25 15:47 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-11-25 03:30 -0600
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-11-25 09:32 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-11-25 11:11 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-11-24 12:24 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-11-25 09:45 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-11-24 10:17 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-17 23:20 -0500
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2014-11-17 23:31 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-18 02:44 -0500
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2014-11-18 00:18 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-11-18 13:51 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-18 12:06 -0500
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2014-11-18 09:23 -1000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-11-18 08:09 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-18 18:01 -0500
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2014-11-17 21:58 -1000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-11-18 14:04 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-11-18 18:53 +0100
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-11-18 14:15 -0600
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-11-23 13:40 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-11-18 17:48 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-11-23 14:24 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-11-23 16:53 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-11-23 17:26 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-11-18 03:34 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2014-11-18 04:19 -0800
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-11-23 13:50 +0000
Re: http://www.lowrisc.org/ Open Core - is the Forth Community involved in this new 64Bit Core? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-11-21 15:42 -0800
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