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Re: What a reference actually is

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On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 9:34:32 AM UTC+2, james...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote:
> On 11/18/22 06:23, Michael S wrote: 
> > On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 11:40:43 AM UTC+2, Juha Nieminen wrote:
> ...
> >> If we start dismissing everything that one could deem "unnecessary" 
> >> then we could start dropping off quite many features even from C itself. 
> >> After all, for example the syntax 'a[b]' is just syntactic sugar for 
> >> '*(a+b)', and thus the former is "unnecessary" and could just be 
> >> dropped off. 
> > 
> > The [] variant is shorter by 2 characters. In DRM view, shortness of 
> > most frequently used language features was of high priority. 
> > Also, in slightly more complex expressions, in case of *(a+b) variant 
> > reader has to look for more information in order to figure out which 
> > of two homonyms 
> > of * is actually used. I would speculate that DRM was not really 
> > pleased with 
> > using asterisk for dereference, but had no better choice in available 
> > character set. 
> > 
> > A 'for()' statement is unnecessary because you can write the same 
> >> thing using a 'while()' statement. 
> > 
> > Except that 'continue' behave differently. 
> > The better argument is that 'while' loops are unnecessary and that is 
> > absolutely correct. A mistake on part of DRM. 
> > 
> >> And obviously the 'do' keyword is completely unnecessary. 
> > 
> > I don't see it. Please elaborate. 
> > 
> >> As well as the 'switch' keyword. 
> > 
> > What alternative do have in mind? if-else-if chains? 
> > Both more typing and intentions of using the same selection variable 
> > for all choices is not pronounced clearly.
> I get the impression that you've missed his point. He's not arguing that 
> C would be made better by dropping all of those things. He's pointing 
> out that just because something is not necessary, is not a reason for 
> dropping it from the language. It is precisely his point that the 
> language would be less easy to use if these features were removed for no 
> better reason than the fact that they are unnecessary.

I don't know about your or Juha, but I personally draw a line at DRY.
Features that help to DRY can be controversial, can be even harmful,
(as many preprocessor macros) but they are not nutrient-free syntactic
 sugar.
Of all features of 'C' listed by Juha, only 'while' and 'const' do not help
DRY at all and only [] help it minimally, but [] obviously help other aspects
of readability.
C++ references do not help DRY at all, except if you consider  & here
or * there as repeating yourself. And, IMHO, presence of references 
in the language makes understanding somebody else's code
significantly harder.

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What a reference actually is Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-11-17 09:01 +0000
  Re: What a reference actually is Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-11-17 06:09 -0800
    Re: What a reference actually is Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-11-18 00:36 +0200
      Re: What a reference actually is JiiPee <kerrttuPoistaTama11@gmail.com> - 2022-11-18 07:49 +0200
      Re: What a reference actually is Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-11-20 05:48 -0800
    Re: What a reference actually is Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-11-18 09:40 +0000
      Re: What a reference actually is Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-11-18 03:23 -0800
        Re: What a reference actually is Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-11-18 05:11 -0800
        Re: What a reference actually is James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-11-19 02:34 -0500
          Re: What a reference actually is Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-11-19 08:20 -0800
            Re: What a reference actually is Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-11-20 00:37 +0200
              Re: What a reference actually is Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-11-19 15:35 -0800
            Re: What a reference actually is Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-11-19 15:13 -0800
              Re: What a reference actually is "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-11-19 15:18 -0800
                Re: What a reference actually is Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-11-19 15:33 -0800
                Re: What a reference actually is Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-11-19 15:36 -0800
                Re: What a reference actually is Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-11-19 15:43 -0800
                Re: What a reference actually is Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-11-19 15:51 -0800
                Re: What a reference actually is Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-11-19 17:57 -0800
                Re: What a reference actually is "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-11-19 19:56 -0800
                Re: What a reference actually is Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-11-20 03:47 -0800
                Re: What a reference actually is Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-11-20 04:24 -0800
                Re: What a reference actually is Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-11-20 06:32 -0800
                Re: What a reference actually is "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-11-21 16:32 -0800
                Re: What a reference actually is Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-11-22 08:30 -0800
              Re: What a reference actually is Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-11-19 15:27 -0800
                Re: What a reference actually is Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-11-20 01:28 +0200
      Re: What a reference actually is Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-11-18 14:51 +0200
        Re: What a reference actually is JiiPee <kerrttuPoistaTama11@gmail.com> - 2022-11-18 18:32 +0200
        Re: What a reference actually is Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-11-21 11:56 +0000
  Re: What a reference actually is Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-11-17 19:27 +0100
  Re: What a reference actually is Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2022-11-19 17:10 +0000
    Re: What a reference actually is Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-11-21 11:59 +0000

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