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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #454414

The Doppler effect (was: The incoming speed of light is variable)

From Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de>
Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity
Subject The Doppler effect (was: The incoming speed of light is variable)
Date 2018-04-01 05:26 +0200
Organization PointedEars Software (PES)
Message-ID <1888246.bB369e8A3T@PointedEars.de> (permalink)
References (4 earlier) <aIGdnSRt57MgBybHnZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <b5313a17-c132-4881-8fe8-f37dc215e894@googlegroups.com> <XNydnacFGJ29CCLHnZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <b4246bf2-bc50-480f-9472-bc5947fee33a@googlegroups.com> <iK6dnSA1v7jfvl3HnZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>

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Tom Roberts wrote:

> The phase speed for such light, wavelength*frequency, is c in the frame
> of the observatory (at any time of year, moving toward or away from the
> star).
> 
> Listen to a train whistle as it goes by. You'll hear
> Doppler shifts, but the speed of sound in the air is
> COMPLETELY UNAFFECTED. (The underlying physics is
> quite different from that of light, but it does show
> conclusively that Doppler shifts do NOT imply a
> change in the speed of the wave.)

Yes, of course.

Often pictures will say more than a thousand words.  Since the Doppler 
effect issue has been raised here, I have been thinking about coming up with 
a *graphical* demonstration that would be more simple, thus more easily 
convincing, than (only) an equation.  So perhaps the following will help 
(finally I can use the library of my experiments in ASCII art :))

    [Nobody who knows the basics of wave mechanics will be educated by
     the following.  However, I would appreciate constructive comments
     by those people as to my didactic approach.]

The following is a snapshot in time of a sinusoidal (sinus-like) wave 
traveling through space (x), emitted by a wave source (S, on the left) that 
is a rest relative to an observer (O, on the right).  We take the snapshot 
at a time when the wave has just reached the observer:

  ^     :<----------- λ ----------->:
  :     :                           :
  :  _.-'''-._                   _.-'''-._                  
  :.'_________`._______________.'_________`._______________._\ x
  :S             `._       _.'               `._       _.' O /
  :                 `-...-'                     `-...-'
  :

    [To see this, use a monospace font for display; see also:
     <https://github.com/PointedEars/userscripts#ggformatteruserjs>]

λ (Lambda) is called the *wavelength* of the wave.  It can be defined as the 
distance in space between neighboring wave crests (here) or troughs.

One (crude) way to define the *frequency* f of a wave is to take our 
snapshot and count the number of crests or troughs that fit into a unit of 
space (volume).  The greater the number of crests/troughs, the greater the 
frequency of the wave (as we will see later, because the wave is moving 
through space, this is equivalent to the usual, more precise definition of 
frequency which is based on time instead.)

When some people think of a wave being emitted by a source moving to the 
right, they think that it happens this:

  ^
  :      _.-'''-._                   _.-'''-._              
  :____.'_________`._______________.'_________`._____________\ x
  : ---S-->          `._       _.'               `._       O /
  :                     `-...-'                     `-...-'
  :

(The source would be moving to the right and the wave would stay the same, 
only shifted to the right, thus reaching the observer earlier than before.
From this they conclude a faster wave speed.)

But what actually happens is this:

  ^      :<-- λ -->:
  :      :         :
  :     .''.      .''.      .''.      .''.      .''.      .'
  :____.____.____.____.____.____.____.____.____.____.____.___\ x
  : ---S-->  .  .      .  .      .  .      .  .      .  .  O /
  :           ''        ''        ''        ''        ''    

If the source moves towards the observer and keeps producing oscillations 
for the wave in the same rhythm (no change of *source* frequency), the 
waveform is *squeezed* in the direction of motion.  As a result, the 
*observed* frequency of the wave increases, *and* its *observed* wavelength 
decreases, compared to what the source emits.

This is only so for *that* observer.  Thus, we must now tell apart the 
*source* frequency f_s and the *observed* frequency f_o, and the *source* 
wavelength λ_s and the *observed* wavelength λ_o.

We can see that the waveform is squeezed the *more* – the observed 
wavelength becomes the shorter, and the observed frequency becomes the 
higher – the *faster* source and observer are moving towards each other
(the greater their relative speeds are).

And if the source that moves *away* from the observer (on the right-hand 
side) keeps producing oscillations for the wave in the same rhythm (no 
change of *source* frequency), the waveform is *stretched* *against* the 
direction of that motion (so *towards *the observer).  As a result, the 
wave’s *observed* frequency f_o decreases, and its *observed* wavelength λ_o  
increases:

  ^      :<- λ_s ->:
  :      :         :
  :     .''.      .''.      .''.      .''.      .''.      .''
  :____.____.____.____.____.____.____.____.____.____.____.___\ x
  :    S     .  .      .  .     :.  .      .  .      .  .  O /
  :           ''        ''      : ''        ''        ''     
                                :
changes to                      :
                                :
  ^     :<---------- λ_o ---------->:
  :     :                       :   :
  :  _.-'''-._                   _.-'''-._                   
  :.'_________`._______________.'_________`._______________._\ x
  :S <---        `._       _.'               `._       _.' O /
  :                 `-...-'                     `-...-'
  :

(Decrease of frequency: Note that now there is only one wave crest instead 
of three in the same volume.

If we imagine the wave being emitted to the left-hand side as well, we see 
that the waveform is simultaneously *stretched*, and *squeezed*, for an 
observer on the *left* of the source when the source is moving to the right, 
and to the left, respectively.)

The same picture can also be viewed as several snapshots in time (t) of the 
values of a wave as it is passing through the same point in space – say, at 
the observer’s:

        :<---------- T_o ---------->:
        :                           :
  ^     P₁                          P₂
  :  _.-'''-._                   _.-'''-._                   
  :.'_________`._______________.'_________`._______________._\ t
  :              `._       _.'               `._       _.'   /
  :                 `-...-'                     `-...-'
  :

The time that it takes for a full cycle of the wave to be emitted or to pass 
through a point in space, here for P₁ to return as P₂, is called the 
*period* T of the wave.  Because at our observer’s that is only what our 
observer measures, we label it T_o, to tell it apart from the T_s that we 
would measure at the source.

The change in observed wavelength and frequency due to a *continuous* change 
of the distance between wave source and observer – due to their relative 
*motion* – is called the *Doppler effect* (after Christian Doppler).


Let us now look at the *phase* of the wave – “the position of a point in 
time on the waveform cycle” (Wikipedia), here P₁ and P₂.  The *phase speed* 
c is a measure of how fast those points are moving (through space).

We (now) know that the observed frequency also increases with regard to 
*time* (more crests/troughs travel through a point in space per unit time), 
and the observed wavelength decreases, when the source is moving towards the 
observer (or vice-versa).  So the observer’s picture of the wave, as they 
observe/measure it *in time*, changes from 

        :<---------- T_s ---------->:
        :                           :
  ^     P₁                          P₂
  :  _.-'''-._                   _.-'''-._                   
  :.'_________`._______________.'_________`._______________._\ t
  :              `._       _.' :             `._       _.'   /
  :                 `-...-'    :                `-...-'
  :                            :
                               :
to                             :
                               :
     :<- T_o ->:               :
     :         :               :
  ^  P₁        P₂              :
  : .''.      .''.      .''.   :  .''.      .''.      .''.
  :.____.____.____.____.____.__:_.____.____.____.____.____.__\ t
  :      .  .      .  .      .  .      .  .      .  .      . /
  :       ''        ''        ''        ''        ''

We can see: There are about three times as many crests/troughs passing the 
observer in the same time interval as before – the observed frequency f_o 
has increased by about a factor of 3.  And it takes considerably less time 
for P₁ to return as P₂ – the observed period T_o has decreased by about a 
factor of 3.

But in that less *time*, P₁ has also traveled proportionally less *distance* 
through space, because the observed wavelength is shorter (by about a factor 
of 3)!

Likewise, if the source is moving away from the observer (or vice-versa), it 
takes *more* time for P₁ to return as P₂; but in that more *time*, P₁ has 
also travelled proportionally more *distance* through space because the 
wavelength is greater!

(Average) speed is defined as the distance traveled per unit time.

This means that the (average) speed of P₁, the (observed, average) *phase 
speed* c of the wave, which is often simply called the (wave) *speed*, is 
*unaffected* by the source’s motion relative to the observer (and vice-
versa).

Mathematically:

    c = λ_o∕T_o    (remember that λ is a *distance*, and T is a *time*,
                    so this *does* give a *speed*)

  f_o = 1∕T_o      (the number of wave crests/troughs *per* unit *time*)

    c = λ × 1∕T_o
      = λ_o f_o
      ≈ 1∕3 λ_s × 3 f_s
      = λ_s × f_s = const.


PointedEars
-- 
A neutron walks into a bar and inquires how much a drink costs.
The bartender replies, "For you? No charge."

(From: WolframAlpha)

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The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-26 08:37 -0700
  Re:The incoming speed of light is variable Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-03-26 17:42 +0200
    Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-26 10:56 -0700
      Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-26 12:54 -0700
        Re: The incoming speed of light is variable mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-26 20:01 -0700
        Re: The incoming speed of light is variable SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> - 2018-03-27 19:52 +1100
          Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-27 06:58 -0700
            Re: The incoming speed of light is variable SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> - 2018-03-28 16:56 +1100
        Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-27 06:10 -0700
          Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-27 08:50 -0700
            Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Micah Strobl <aui@cwwi.cu> - 2018-03-27 18:11 +0000
              Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-03-27 20:53 +0200
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Micah Strobl <aui@cwwi.cu> - 2018-03-27 20:08 +0000
              Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-27 11:55 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Micah Strobl <aui@cwwi.cu> - 2018-03-27 19:05 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-27 14:45 -0700
            Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-28 07:10 -0700
              Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-28 07:29 -0700
              Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-28 15:24 -0700
      Re: The incoming speed of light is variable rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 15:44 -0700
        Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-27 06:05 -0700
      Re: The incoming speed of light is variable SolomonW <SoloomonW@citi.com.au> - 2018-03-27 12:37 +1100
        Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-26 18:45 -0700
          Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-26 18:56 -0700
            Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-26 19:22 -0700
        Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-27 06:41 -0700
          Re: The incoming speed of light is variable SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> - 2018-03-28 16:58 +1100
            Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-28 15:11 -0700
              Re: The incoming speed of light is variable SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> - 2018-03-29 19:31 +1100
      Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Steve BH <sbharris@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 18:48 -0700
        Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-27 06:55 -0700
      Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-27 11:25 +0000
        Re: The incoming speed of light is variable mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-27 04:36 -0700
          Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-27 18:12 +0000
            Re: The incoming speed of light is variable mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-28 00:16 -0700
              Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 12:30 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-28 23:23 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-29 11:39 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-29 09:50 -0700
        Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-27 07:05 -0700
          Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-27 18:12 +0000
          Re: The incoming speed of light is variable rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-27 12:58 -0700
            Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-28 06:50 -0700
              Re: The incoming speed of light is variable rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 07:44 -0700
  Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-27 09:08 -0700
    Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-27 09:22 -0700
    Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-27 09:31 -0700
      Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-27 09:45 -0700
      Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-27 09:54 -0700
    Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-03-27 13:26 -0400
      Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-27 13:23 -0700
        Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-27 14:10 -0700
        Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-03-28 09:37 -0400
          Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-28 07:25 -0700
            Re: The incoming speed of light is variable rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 08:06 -0700
              Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-28 09:01 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-28 09:10 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-28 09:18 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-28 09:31 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-28 09:43 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 13:48 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-29 08:48 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-29 09:00 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-29 10:33 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-29 11:10 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-29 14:59 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-29 15:06 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-29 15:17 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-29 16:07 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-29 16:09 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-29 18:05 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-30 13:56 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-30 14:01 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-30 14:41 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-30 15:26 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-30 15:40 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-30 21:44 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-30 16:37 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-31 10:26 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-31 10:38 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-31 10:45 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-04-01 11:25 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-04-01 20:54 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-01 22:49 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-04-02 07:06 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-02 09:12 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-04-02 13:45 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-02 15:30 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@notmail.com> - 2018-04-03 12:24 +0200
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-03 03:38 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-31 14:18 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-31 14:49 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-04-01 19:05 +0200
            Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-28 16:07 -0700
            Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-03-31 09:03 -0500
              Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-31 08:20 -0700
              Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-31 08:26 -0700
              Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Emory Walpole <aibw@wrtwgt.lr> - 2018-03-31 16:13 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-03-31 20:05 +0200
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Emory Walpole <aibw@wrtwgt.lr> - 2018-03-31 19:02 +0000
              Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-31 13:52 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-01 08:15 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-04-01 10:12 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-02 10:51 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-04-02 07:34 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-02 08:13 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-02 08:17 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-02 09:08 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-03-31 19:09 -0500
                The Doppler effect (was: The incoming speed of light is variable) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-04-01 05:26 +0200
                Re: The Doppler effect HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-02 10:59 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-04-01 10:06 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-01 11:45 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-04-01 15:55 -0500
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-01 22:50 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-04-02 09:17 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-02 10:00 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-04-02 11:44 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-04-02 16:29 -0500
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Emory Walpole <aibw@wrtwsgt.lr> - 2018-04-02 23:21 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-02 16:33 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-04-02 22:38 -0500
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-03 20:02 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Emory Walpole <aibw@wrtwsgt.lr> - 2018-04-03 11:37 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-04-03 12:39 -0500
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-04-03 12:36 -0500
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-04 08:40 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-03 20:20 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-04 16:27 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-04 12:31 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-05 08:23 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-04-05 01:35 +0200
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-05 10:56 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-04-04 18:14 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-04 18:17 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-04-05 02:15 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-05 15:32 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-04-05 10:43 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-06 09:55 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-04-06 12:42 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-07 10:00 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-06 17:43 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-08 08:58 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-08 05:08 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-04-07 02:26 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-05 04:47 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-04 19:22 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-05 15:11 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-05 04:42 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-05 06:04 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-06 13:50 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-06 08:10 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-07 09:43 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-06 17:25 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-04-07 07:27 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-04-08 04:10 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-04-08 04:09 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gaston Levell <jno@itwjwg.tn> - 2018-04-08 11:25 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-04-08 12:09 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-04-08 05:29 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-04-08 12:32 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Libor 'Poutnik' Stříž <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2018-04-08 15:20 +0200
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-04-08 16:35 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-04-08 16:30 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-08 05:01 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-04-08 05:18 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-08 07:27 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-10 19:11 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-10 19:14 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-10 07:12 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-04 21:27 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-04 13:02 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-04 13:05 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-04-04 15:08 -0500
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-04 13:19 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-04 13:31 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-04 13:39 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-05 09:24 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-04-05 06:15 +0200
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-04-09 09:35 -0500
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gaston Levell <jno@itwjwg.tn> - 2018-04-09 16:13 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-04-03 08:39 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-02 11:06 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-02 18:21 +0100
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-02 11:21 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-02 11:30 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-03 00:41 +0100
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-02 19:22 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-04-03 02:26 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-02 20:11 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-02 20:15 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-03 09:45 +0100
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-03 05:15 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-03 14:50 +0100
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-03 07:06 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-03 18:53 +0100
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-03 11:46 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-04-03 17:31 +0000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-04-08 11:19 -0500
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-08 19:21 +0100
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Libor 'Poutnik' Stříž <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2018-04-08 21:11 +0200
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-09 08:50 +0100
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-09 04:49 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-12 18:35 +0100
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-04-12 17:06 -0500
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable HGW <HW@home.net> - 2018-04-13 09:32 +1000
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-04-13 04:46 +0200
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-13 07:42 +0100
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Libor P Striz <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2018-04-13 08:57 +0200
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-13 10:18 +0100
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Libor P Striz <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2018-04-14 08:52 +0200
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-14 00:11 -0700
                Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-13 06:31 -0700
                Speed of light in space near earth Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-04-08 17:11 -0500
                Re: Speed of light in space near earth SolomonW <SoloomonW@citi.com.au> - 2018-04-09 13:00 +1000
                Re: Speed of light in space near earth Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-04-09 09:29 -0500
                Re: Speed of light in space near earth SolomonW <SoloomonW@citi.com.au> - 2018-04-10 14:55 +1000
                Re: Speed of light in space near earth Libor P Striz <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2018-04-10 22:26 +0200
                Re: Speed of light in space near earth SolomonW <SoloomonW@citi.com.au> - 2018-04-11 13:26 +1000
                Re: Speed of light in space near earth Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-04-11 18:46 -0500
                Re: Speed of light in space near earth SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> - 2018-04-12 10:44 +1000
                Re: Speed of light in space near earth "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-08 20:50 -0700
                Re: Speed of light in space near earth "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-08 20:55 -0700
              Re: The incoming speed of light is variable mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-01 00:02 -0700
        Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-28 15:04 -0700
          Re: The incoming speed of light is variable rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 16:38 -0700
          Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-29 08:55 -0700
    Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-28 07:40 -0700
      Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-28 08:28 -0700
        Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-28 08:43 -0700
          Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-28 08:53 -0700
        Re: The incoming speed of light is variable kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-28 15:32 -0700
          Re: The incoming speed of light is variable Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-29 09:23 -0700
            Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-29 09:27 -0700
              Re: The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-29 09:36 -0700
  The incoming speed of light is variable "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-28 07:36 -0700
    Re: The incoming speed of light is variable rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 08:06 -0700

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