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Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth)

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gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com wrote:

> On Tuesday, September 5, 2017 at 5:45:09 PM UTC+5:30, Thomas 'PointedEars'
> Lahn wrote:
>> They are not misleading, but they are not sufficient to fully understand
>> the subject.  Eventually the thought experiments *are* transformed into
>> mathematics in Einstein’s papers, and must be by us who want to
>> understand the theories posited by him.
> 
> This is an interesting line of thought to explore further. What exactly in
> the thought experiments is incomplete? As a friend of mine once said ' you
> can describe it in words but you can't do anything more than that' when
> comparing qualitative descriptions vs mathematical ones.

For example, take the relativity of simultaneity as a good starting point.  
There is the thought experiment in which two lightnings strike at the same 
time at equal distances from an observer considered at rest, and an observer 
in the middle of a train that is moving relative to the first observer.

Now, you still *can* understand intuitively and qualitatively that if the 
speed of light is finite and the same for all observers, the flashes are 
simultaneous for the observer at rest, but not simultaneous for the moving 
observer: Because the moving observer is moving towards one flash and away 
from the other; he catches up earlier with the light of the flash that he is 
moving towards than the light of the flash that he is moving away from can 
catch up with him.

But, IMHO, in order to fully understand that this also means in general that 
time is not absolute – that more time must pass for the observer at rest 
than for the moving observer (which explains the twin paradox from the 
perspective of the earthbound observer); and that this also means that space 
is not absolute – that distances at rest are greater for the observer at 
rest than for the moving observer (which explains the twin paradox from the 
perspective of the traveler) – you have to do the calculation.

For example, from my experience, you have to consider the light clock and 
calculate the Lorentz factor once.  And in order to find that invariance in 
nature – that all observers agree on the spacetime interval between two 
events, and that therefore space and time are interconnected as 
*spacetime* – you have to calculate that quantity for at least two observers 
(most easily done based on light clocks) to see that it is the same for both 
of them.  In my experience, you cannot understand that without understanding 
mathematics and the logical arguments that mathematics is based on [here:
from the Pythagorean theorem follows a quantity 4h², and (a = 4h²) ∧
(b = 4h²) → (a = b), where h is the distance between the mirrors of 
identical light clocks, and a and b are, it turns out, expressions for 
calculating the spacetime interval].  This invariance then can help with 
deriving the Lorentz transformation *by calculation*, which when used *in 
calculating* the velocity reveals the actual, relativistic composition of 
velocities.  And so on.

>> > I think it best that I put my concerns in a book and leave it there.
>> Please don’t.  Or at least please don’t publish it.  It would only be
>> more fodder for relativity deniers and other crackpots.  The record 
>> shows.
> 
> I intend to have it peer- reviewed by a mainstream scientist first.

I wager that, if you find that poor guy, it will never be published then 
because after their review the points of the book, your concerns, will all 
have disappeared in a puff of logic.  You have to realize that those 
concerns have been discussed *by ("mainstream") scientists* numerous times 
before, including books.

And the peer review and the "blessing" by a "mainstream" scientist would not 
necessarily mean that your book is flawless.  For example, I have learned of 
a book by a certified crackpot (based on what they posted) on this 
crackpot’s "theory" whose preface was purportedly written by a "mainstream" 
scientist.  They might have even peer-reviewed that book.  I do not know if 
either is true – I am reminded now that I intended to find out by writing to 
that scientist −, but if it is true, it would prove my point.

HTH

-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-01 03:25 -0700
  Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@hotspam.not> - 2017-09-01 13:23 +0200
  Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-01 14:15 +0200
    Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-01 06:09 -0700
  Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2017-09-01 06:20 -0700
    Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-01 07:05 -0700
    Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time  dilation for the Earth) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-09-01 12:40 -0700
      Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time   dilation for the Earth) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-09-02 12:19 -0700
  Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-01 19:37 +0000
  Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-02 03:26 +0200
    Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) xxein1x1@gmail.com - 2017-09-02 22:34 -0700
      Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) xxein1x1@gmail.com - 2017-09-02 22:48 -0700
      Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-03 10:18 +0200
        Energy (was: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth)) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-03 15:52 +0200
          Re: Energy (was: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth)) Ethel Ocallaghan <unlgclo@awlwaac.ag> - 2017-09-03 13:56 +0000
            The problem of crackpots (was: Energy) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-03 17:32 +0200
    Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-03 18:43 -0700
      Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-03 18:55 -0700
        Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-03 19:03 -0700
          Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-05 08:22 +0200
            Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-04 23:32 -0700
            Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 04:11 -0700
              Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-09-05 05:06 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-05 05:17 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-09-05 05:26 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Istrátora Metiku <untw@nwpovu.un> - 2017-09-06 12:42 +0000
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 22:11 -0700
              Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-05 14:33 +0200
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-06 00:33 +0200
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 22:48 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Istrátora Metiku <untw@nwpovu.un> - 2017-09-06 13:03 +0000
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 22:46 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-06 13:04 +0200
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 05:05 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-06 05:25 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-07 02:10 +0200
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 20:40 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-07 13:15 +0200
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-07 05:42 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-07 21:56 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-07 21:58 -0700
        Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-05 07:57 +0200
          Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-04 23:19 -0700
            Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 03:38 -0700
              Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-05 04:52 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 22:08 -0700
          Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 03:58 -0700
            Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-05 14:22 +0200
          Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-05 14:03 +0200
        Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-05 08:26 +0200
          Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 04:12 -0700
      Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-04 06:42 +0200
        Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-04 05:35 -0700
          Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-04 21:49 +0200
            Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-04 19:35 -0700
              Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-05 07:41 +0200
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 03:53 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-05 14:15 +0200
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 22:17 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-06 12:44 +0200
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 05:19 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-06 15:34 +0200
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 08:53 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-06 18:02 +0200
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 21:02 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-07 11:31 +0200
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Erika Milling <kak@kiilwgil.lc> - 2017-09-07 15:46 +0000
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-07 21:44 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-06 16:01 +0200
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-06 07:11 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 08:57 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 09:01 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-07 02:25 +0200
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 20:49 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-07 11:42 +0200
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-07 01:23 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-07 02:01 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-06 12:56 -0500
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-06 12:44 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 20:36 -0700
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-07 12:04 +0200
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-07 12:14 +0000
                Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-06 20:12 +0200
  Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) bigal95210@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 15:48 -0700
    Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 22:49 -0700
      Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-07 07:32 -0700

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