OpenAI is Toast: Kimi K2 is Live [Halting Problem] (Was: USA domestic chips for the never ending crunch)

From	Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm>
Newsgroups	sci.math, sci.logic, sci.physics.relativity
Subject	OpenAI is Toast: Kimi K2 is Live [Halting Problem] (Was: USA domestic chips for the never ending crunch)
Date	2025-11-10 15:57 +0100
Message-ID	<10esugq$32sm$1@solani.org> (permalink)
References	<10bs8fq$hne8$3@solani.org> <10bs98j$hnv4$3@solani.org> <10bsa17$hob3$3@solani.org>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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Hi,

Lets analyse Ross Finlaysons Halting Problem
nonsensen with Kimi K2:

Ross Finlayson schrieb:
 > I don't go looking for paradoxes,
 > since there aren't any in a real theory,
 > contradictions though automatically
 > make for counterexamples, then about
 > the "analytical bridges",
 > or ponts is what I call them,
 > not the "invincible ignorance".

Lets see what Kimi K2 says:

Q: In the arithmetic hierarchy counter models are
a level higher, than provability.

A: I think you're referring to a well-known fact
in logic: the set of (codes of) sentences that
are true in some model of arithmetic is one level
higher in the arithmetical hierarchy than the set
of sentences that are provable in, say, Peano Arithmetic.

Let me double-check the precise levels and any subtleties.
Let me bring in a classic reference that spells out the
exact levels. The key fact is:

The set of (Gödel numbers of) sentences provable in
Peano Arithmetic is recursively enumerable, hence Σ₁⁰.
The set of sentences that are true in some model of
PA is Σ₂⁰ (and complete for that level).

A concise statement of this can be found in Hinman’s
textbook or in the classic survey by Kreisel & Levy.
Let me look for an explicit citation.

Exactly — the blog post I just fetched already says
it in plain language:
“∃y (y Gödel-codes a proof from PA of the sentence Gödel-coded by x) … 
defines the set of natural numbers that encode theorems of PA. … This 
set is … Σ₁.”
So the set of provable sentences is Σ₁.
A couple of paragraphs later it continues:
“Σ₂ sets are those that can be defined by a sentence that
has a block of ∃s, then a block of ∀s, and finally
a Σ₀ sentence …
…
∃y ∀z (TM(x) doesn’t halt on input y after z steps)
… defines the set of Turing machines that compute partial functions.”
That set is Σ₂ and is not Σ₁.

Now let me connect the dots explicitly:
Provability = “there exists a proof” ⇒ one
unbounded ∃ ⇒ Σ₁.
Satisfiability (having a model) = “there exists a
model” followed by “for every axiom, it is true in
that model” ⇒ ∃ followed by ∀ ⇒ Σ₂.
Hence, as your couplet says, In the arithmetic hierarchy,
counter-models are a level higher than provability.

they indeed sit one step higher: Σ₂ vs. Σ₁.

Click the link to view conversation with Kimi AI Assistant 
https://www.kimi.com/share/19a6e410-3582-81e2-8000-00000e33bfe3

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:
> Hi,
> 
> So the Tibetan lamasery had it right,
> the lights go out. There is a never ending
> hunger for crunch? Even requiring USA
> 
> to go into domestic chip production:
> 
> America’s Most Advanced Chip Factory Yet
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VX3jNJmbcI
> 
> But chip production etc.. (embodied energy) is
> only a fraction of the energy consumption:
> 
>  > Operational energy (running the data center
>  > for 1 year at 1 GW) = 8,760 TWh Hardware
>  > manufacturing energy = 0.75 TWh
>  > So the energy to produce the hardware is
>  > roughly 0.0085 (or 0.85%) of the annual
>  > operational energy.
> 
> What are the projections? By 2030, global
> power demand for data centers is projected to
> reach approximately 220 GW, underscoring the
> 
> urgency and strategic importance of securing
> power and hardware capacity:
> 
> $100B Bet on 10GW AI Infrastructure
> https://51ai.substack.com/p/openai-nvidia-100b-bet-on-10gw-ai
> 
> Bye
> 
> Mild Shock schrieb:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Interestingly there is also now a top-ten
>> for AI data centers, not only super computers.
>> We are talking about newly built AI data centers
>>
>> that for the first time go into giga watts:
>>
>> The New World’s Largest AI Supercluster
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxuSvyOwVCI
>>
>> Some confirmed picks:
>>
>> xAI Colossus Memphis
>> Phase 1    100000    xAI    U.S.    Confirmed
>> Tesla Cortex Phase 1    50000    Tesla    U.S.    Confirmed
>> Lawrence Livermore NL
>> El Capitan Phase 2    44143    U.S. Department of
>> Energy    U.S.    Confirmed
>> Anonymized Chinese
>> System    30000    N/A    China    Confirmed
>> Meta GenAI 2024a    24576    Meta AI    U.S.    Confirmed
>> Meta GenAI 2024b    24576    Meta AI    U.S.    Confirmed
>> Jupiter, Jülich    23536    EuroHPC JU,
>> Jülich Supercomputing
>> Center    Germany    Confirmed
>> Anonymized Chinese
>> System    20000    N/A    China    Confirmed
>> Anonymized Chinese
>> System    20000    N/A    China    Confirmed
>>
>> https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-worlds-most-powerful-ai-supercomputers/ 
>>
>> Bye
>>
>> Mild Shock schrieb:
>>>
>>>
>>> In a Tibetan lamasery, the monks seek to
>>> list all of the names of God. They believe
>>> the Universe was created for this purpose,
>>> and that once this naming is completed, God
>>> will bring the Universe to an end. Three
>>>
>>> centuries ago, the monks created an alphabet
>>> in which they calculated they could encode
>>> all the possible names of God, numbering
>>> about 9,000,000,000 ("nine billion") and
>>> each having no more than nine characters.
>>>
>>> riting the names out by hand, as they had
>>> been doing, even after eliminating various
>>> nonsense combinations, would take another
>>> 15,000 years; the monks wish to use modern
>>> technology to finish this task in 100 days.
>>>
>>> They rent a computer capable of printing all
>>> the possible permutations, and hire two
>>> Westerners to install and program the machine.
>>> The computer operators are skeptical but
>>> play along. After three months, as the job
>>>
>>> nears completion, they fear that the monks
>>> will blame the computer (and, by extension,
>>> its operators) when nothing happens. The
>>> Westerners leave slightly earlier than their
>>> scheduled departure without warning the monks,
>>>
>>> so that it will complete its final print run
>>> shortly after they leave. On their way to the
>>> airfield they pause on the mountain path. Under
>>> a clear night sky they es timate that it must be
>>> just about the time that the monks are pasting
>>>
>>> the final printed names into their holy books.
>>> Then they notice that "overhead, without any
>>> fuss, the stars were going out."
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God
>>
>

Thread

Vanishing Point . [Le Dot] Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-05 00:52 +0200
  Lets compare AI data centers (Re: Vanishing Point . [Le Dot]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-05 01:05 +0200
    USA domestic chips for the never ending crunch (Re: Lets compare AI data centers) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-05 01:19 +0200
      OpenAI is Toast: Kimi K2 is Live [Halting Problem] (Was: USA domestic chips for the never ending crunch) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-10 15:57 +0100
        Re: OpenAI is Toast: Kimi K2 is Live [Halting Problem] (Was: USA domestic chips for the never ending crunch) olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-10 12:20 -0600
          Re: OpenAI is Toast: Kimi K2 is Live [Halting Problem] (Was: USA domestic chips for the never ending crunch) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-10 12:08 -0800
        Re: OpenAI is Toast: Kimi K2 is Live [Halting Problem] (Was: USA domestic chips for the never ending crunch) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-11-10 17:05 -0800
        The joy of running an AI Model on your AI Laptop [Local AI] (Was: OpenAI is Toast: Kimi K2 is Live [Halting Problem]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-11 21:09 +0100
        The joy of running an AI Model on your AI Laptop [Local AI] (Was: OpenAI is Toast: Kimi K2 is Live [Halting Problem]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-11 21:12 +0100
          Cute Racoon generated with Local AI (Was: The joy of running an AI Model on your AI Laptop [Local AI]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-11 23:26 +0100
        Meta is Dust: Yann LeCun crushed by Behemoth China (Was: OpenAI is Toast: Kimi K2 is Live [Halting Problem]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-13 19:03 +0100
          Even Prolog now depends on China (Was: Meta is Dust: Yann LeCun crushed by Behemoth China) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-13 19:13 +0100
            Re: Even Prolog now depends on China (Was: Meta is Dust: Yann LeCun crushed by Behemoth China) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-11-13 11:42 -0800
  Re: Vanishing Point . [Le Dot] Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-10-04 18:38 -0700
    Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License (CC BY-SA 4.0). (Was: Vanishing Point . [Le Dot]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-05 10:09 +0200
      Holy Schrimp Jesus: The Internet is Dead [Rossy Boy dethroned?] (Was: Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-05 10:29 +0200
        Re: Holy Schrimp Jesus: The Internet is Dead [Rossy Boy dethroned?] (Was: Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-10-05 10:29 -0700
        Re: Holy Schrimp Jesus: The Internet is Dead [Rossy Boy dethroned?] (Was: Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License) kinak <kin@mob.net.inv> - 2025-10-05 18:57 +0100
          Re: Holy Schrimp Jesus: The Internet is Dead [Rossy Boy dethroned?] (Was: Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-10-05 11:06 -0700
    British writer Arthur C. Clarke (Re: Vanishing Point . [Le Dot]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-05 19:33 +0200
      Aryabhatta of Bihar [Indian Mathematician-Astronomer] (Re: British writer Arthur C. Clarke) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-05 19:34 +0200
      Re: British writer Arthur C. Clarke (Re: Vanishing Point . [Le Dot]) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-10-05 11:06 -0700
  Knight Rider (2025/2026) will kill us all (Was: Vanishing Point . [Le Dot]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-13 21:52 +0100
    The AGI Gambit: Hype vs. Reality (Re: Knight Rider (2025/2026) will kill us all) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-13 21:59 +0100
      Stable Diffusion with Control Net (Re: The AGI Gambit: Hype vs. Reality) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-13 23:04 +0100

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