Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory

From	cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Newsgroups	comp.theory, sci.logic, sci.math
Subject	Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory
Date	2025-10-15 12:21 +0000
Organization	PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID	<10co3l0$lv0$4@reader2.panix.com> (permalink)
References	<10cn08f$3c8c3$1@dont-email.me> <20251014193940.96@kylheku.com> <10cn303$3cvon$1@dont-email.me> <20251014202441.931@kylheku.com>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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In article <20251014202441.931@kylheku.com>,
Kaz Kylheku  <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> wrote:
>On 2025-10-15, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 10/14/2025 9:46 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>> On 2025-10-15, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 5. In short
>>>>
>>>> The halting problem as usually formalized is syntactically consistent
>>>> only because it pretends that U(p) is well-defined for every p.
>>>>
>>>> If you interpret the definitions semantically — as saying that
>>>> U(p) should simulate the behavior
>>> 
>>> ... then you're making a grievous mistake. The halting function doesn't
>>> stipulate simulation.
>>> 
>>
>> None-the-less it is a definitely reliable way to
>> discern the actual behavior that the actual input
>> actually specifies.
>
>No, it isn't.  When the input specifies halting behavior
>then we know that simulation will terminate in a finite number
>of steps. In that case we discern that the input has terminated.
>
>When the input does not terminate, simulation does not inform
>about this.
>
>No matter how many steps of the simulation have occurred,
>there are always more steps, and we have no idea whether
>termination is coming.
>
>In other words, simulation is not a halting decision algorithm.
>
>Exhaustive simulation is what we must desperately avoid
>if we are to discern the halting behavior that
>the actual input specifies.
>
>You are really not versed in the undergraduate rudiments
>of this problem, are you!
>
>> The system that the halting problem assumes is
>> logically incoherent when  ...
>
>when it is assumed that halting can be decided; but that inconsitency is
>resolved by concluding that halting is not decidable.
>
>... when you're a crazy crank on comp.theory, otherwise all good.
>
>>    "You’re making a sharper claim now — that even
>>     as mathematics, the halting problem’s assumed
>>     system collapses when you take its own definitions
>>     seriously, without ignoring what they imply."
>>
>
>I don't know who is supposed to be saying this and to whom;
>(Maybe one of your inner vocies to the other? or AI?)
>
>Whoever is making this "sharper claim" is an absolute dullard.
>
>The halting problem's assumed system does positively /not/
>collapse when you take its definitions seriously,
>and without ignoring what they imply.
>
>(But when have you ever done that, come to think of it.)

Could you guys please keep this stuff out of comp.lang.c?

	- Dan C.

Thread

The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 21:17 -0500
  Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 02:46 +0000
    Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 22:04 -0500
      Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 03:34 +0000
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 22:46 -0500
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 05:36 +0000
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 06:44 -0500
              Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 16:38 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 12:12 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-10-15 17:19 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 12:24 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-10-15 18:25 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:07 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 06:55 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-16 08:33 +0100
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:23 -0500
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:14 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 19:01 +0000
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:11 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 18:54 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:19 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 13:14 -0700
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 20:47 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 16:00 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 17:18 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 19:12 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 14:58 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 15:56 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-10-16 21:07 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 16:19 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-16 22:25 +0100
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 16:39 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 21:46 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 21:45 +0000
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 17:28 -0500
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-10-15 12:21 +0000
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 07:32 -0500
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory tTh <tth@none.invalid> - 2025-10-15 16:50 +0200
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 16:25 +0000
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-16 12:34 +0300
              Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:27 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 14:03 -0700
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-17 11:45 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-17 10:11 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-18 11:58 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-18 05:47 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-19 11:39 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-19 10:31 +0100
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-19 14:16 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-19 13:38 +0100
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 11:04 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 13:22 -0700
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 13:34 -0700
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 23:00 -0500
      Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-16 05:37 +0100
    Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-15 05:39 +0100
      Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 05:38 +0000
        The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 18:33 -0500
          Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Python <jpierre.messager@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 23:59 +0000
          Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-16 06:46 +0100
            Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:14 -0500
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-16 05:53 +0100
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 07:56 -0500
  Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-15 12:15 +0300
    Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 07:30 -0500
      Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-16 12:21 +0300
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:34 -0500
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 21:31 +0000
            The halting problem incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 17:04 -0500
              Re: The halting problem incoherent Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-17 11:59 +0300
                Re: The halting problem incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-17 06:47 -0500
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-17 11:54 +0300
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-17 10:15 -0500
              Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-19 11:42 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 11:08 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-19 18:43 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 10:24 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 17:18 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 12:34 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 17:41 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 12:47 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 18:09 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 13:42 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 19:21 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 14:30 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 22:15 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 17:33 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 17:43 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 15:59 -0700
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-20 23:58 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 19:07 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 01:32 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 20:38 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 02:00 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 21:21 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 03:22 +0000
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:37 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:45 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:51 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:55 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:09 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 08:09 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 08:30 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 09:34 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 09:45 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 10:51 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 10:17 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 11:19 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 10:26 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 11:31 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 11:17 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 12:57 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 05:42 +0000
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-21 06:55 +0100
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 01:37 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 16:22 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 20:55 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 02:15 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:02 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-20 20:59 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-20 12:22 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 12:06 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-22 11:51 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 07:22 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-23 13:04 +0300
    Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 13:08 -0700
  Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-16 07:55 -0400

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