Is there a Swiss Army Knife of launching a Prolog system (Was: Most radical approach is Novacore from Dogelog Player)

From	Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.prolog
Subject	Is there a Swiss Army Knife of launching a Prolog system (Was: Most radical approach is Novacore from Dogelog Player)
Date	2025-07-13 15:17 +0200
Message-ID	<1050bkj$26p4p$2@solani.org> (permalink)
References	<vpceij$is1s$1@solani.org> <103bos1$164mt$1@solani.org> <103bpdh$164t1$1@solani.org> <103bqc8$165f2$1@solani.org>

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BTW: I see what you did here:

doge.pl: $(PROG)
	$(file >$@,false :- \+true. ?- ['$<'],$(MAIN).)

https://github.com/hurufu/prolog-all/blob/main/rules.mk

Yes, I do not yet have a -g option.

Maybe should change that... The issue is a
little tricky. Only recently I managed to handle
some stuff that is tied to to the command line
after the Novacore has been loaded.

For example the top-level is now entered after
the Novacore is loaded, and the top-level loads
in itself library(session) etc.. To have a -g option
there is a dependency on

library(charsio), to convert a string into a term,
which is not part of Novacore itself. So maybe I could
do the same for a -g option, so that I can keep
the Novacore small, load

library(charsio) depending on the command line.
I just did yesterday something to make the Novacore
smaller. And handling a -g option this way could
be a viable way to keep it small.

Mild Shock schrieb:
> Hi,
> 
> The most radical approach is Novacore from
> Dogelog Player. It consists of the following
> major incisions in the ISO core standard:
> 
> - We do not forbid chars, like for example
>    using lists of the form [a,b,c], we also
>    provide char_code/2 predicate bidirectionally.
> 
> - We do not provide and _chars built-in
>    predicates also there is nothing _strings. The
>    Prolog system is clever enough to not put
>    every atom it sees in an atom table. There
>    is only a predicate table.
> 
> - Some host languages have garbage collection that
>    deduplicates Strings. For example some Java
>    versions have an options to do that. But we
>    do not have any efforts to deduplicate atoms,
>    which are simply plain strings.
> 
> - Some languages have constant pools. For example
>    the Java byte code format includes a constant
>    pool in every class header. We do not do that
>    during transpilation , but we could of course.
>    But it begs the question, why only deduplicate
>    strings and not other constant expressions as well?
> 
> - We are totally happy that we have only codes,
>    there are chances that the host languages use
>    tagged pointers to represent them. So they
>    are represented similar to the tagged pointers
>    in SWI-Prolog which works for small integers.
> 
> - But the tagged pointer argument is moot,
>    since atom length=1 entities can be also
>    represented as tagged pointers, and some
>    programming languages do that. Dogelog Player
>    would use such tagged pointers without
>    poluting the atom table.
> 
> - What else?
> 
> Bye
> 
> Mild Shock schrieb:
>>
>> Technically SWI-Prolog doesn't prefer codes.
>> Library `library(pure_input)` might prefer codes.
>> But this is again an issue of improving the
>> library by some non existent SWI-Prolog community.
>>
>> The ISO core standard is silent about a flag
>> back_quotes, but has a lot of API requirements
>> that support both codes and chars, for example it
>> requires atom_codes/2 and atom_chars/2.
>>
>> Implementation wise there can be an issue,
>> like one might decide to implement the atoms
>> of length=1 more efficiently, since with Unicode
>> there is now an explosion.
>>
>> Not sure whether Trealla Prolog and Scryer
>> Prolog thought about this problem, that the
>> atom table gets quite large. Whereas codes don't
>> eat the atom table. Maybe they forbit predicates
>>
>> that have an atom of length=1 head:
>>
>> h(X) :-
>>      write('Hello '), write(X), write('!'), nl.
>>
>> Does this still work?
>>
>> Mild Shock schrieb:
>>> Concerning library(portray_text) which is in limbo:
>>>
>>>  > Libraries are (often) written for either
>>> and thus the libraries make the choice.
>>>
>>> But who writes these libraries? The SWI Prolog
>>> community. And who doesn’t improve these libraries,
>>> instead floods the web with workaround tips?
>>> The SWI Prolog community.
>>>
>>> Conclusion the SWI-Prolog community has itself
>>> trapped in an ancient status quo, creating an island.
>>> Cannot improve its own tooling, is not willing
>>> to support code from else where that uses chars.
>>>
>>> Same with the missed AI Boom.
>>>
>>> (*) Code from elsewhere is dangerous, People
>>> might use other Prolog systems than only SWI-Prolog,
>>> like for exampe Trealla Prolog and Scryer Prolog.
>>>
>>> (**) Keeping the status quo is comfy. No need to
>>> think in terms of programm code. Its like biology
>>> teachers versus pathology staff, biology teachers
>>> do not everyday see opened corpses.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mild Shock schrieb:
>>>>
>>>> Inductive logic programming at 30
>>>> https://arxiv.org/abs/2102.10556
>>>>
>>>> The paper contains not a single reference to autoencoders!
>>>> Still they show this example:
>>>>
>>>> Fig. 1 ILP systems struggle with structured examples that
>>>> exhibit observational noise. All three examples clearly
>>>> spell the word "ILP", with some alterations: 3 noisy pixels,
>>>> shifted and elongated letters. If we would be to learn a
>>>> program that simply draws "ILP" in the middle of the picture,
>>>> without noisy pixels and elongated letters, that would
>>>> be a correct program.
>>>>
>>>> I guess ILP is 30 years behind the AI boom. An early autoencoder
>>>> turned into transformer was already reported here (*):
>>>>
>>>> SERIAL ORDER, Michael I. Jordan - May 1986
>>>> https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~gary/PAPER-SUGGESTIONS/Jordan-TR-8604-OCRed.pdf 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well ILP might have its merits, maybe we should not ask
>>>> for a marriage of LLM and Prolog, but Autoencoders and ILP.
>>>> But its tricky, I am still trying to decode the da Vinci code of
>>>>
>>>> things like stacked tensors, are they related to k-literal clauses?
>>>> The paper I referenced is found in this excellent video:
>>>>
>>>> The Making of ChatGPT (35 Year History)
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFS90-FX6pg
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Thread

Prolog totally missed the AI Boom Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-02-22 13:05 +0100
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    Ignorance in ILP circles confirmed (Was: Auto-Encoders as Prolog Fact Stores) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-02-23 18:33 +0100
    Neuro infused logic programming [NILP] (Was: Auto-Encoders as Prolog Fact Stores) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-03-19 20:58 +0100
  Last Exit Analogical Resoning (Was: Prolog totally missed the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-03-07 18:16 +0100
  A software engineering analyis why Prolog fails (Was: Prolog totally missed the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-03-25 12:22 +0100
    Lets re-iterate software engineering first! (Was: A software engineering analyis why Prolog fails) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-03-27 11:42 +0100
      Re: Lets re-iterate software engineering first! (Was: A software engineering analyis why Prolog fails) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-03-27 11:43 +0100
  No Coders completely Brain Dead (Was: Prolog totally missed the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-23 16:37 +0200
    Unicode and atom length=1 (Was: No Coders completely Brain Dead) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-23 16:47 +0200
      Most radical approach is Novacore from Dogelog Player (Was: Unicode and atom length=1) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-23 17:03 +0200
        SWI-Prolog master not wide awake, doing day-sleeping (Was: Most radical approach is Novacore from Dogelog Player) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-23 18:43 +0200
          Re: SWI-Prolog master not wide awake, doing day-sleeping (Was: Most radical approach is Novacore from Dogelog Player) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-23 18:44 +0200
          The beauty of a double hook (Was: SWI-Prolog master not wide awake, doing day-sleeping) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-23 18:45 +0200
          The beauty of a dual use hook (Was: SWI-Prolog master not wide awake, doing day-sleeping) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-23 19:01 +0200
            maplist(char_code, Chars, Codes) is bidirectional (Was: The beauty of a dual use hook) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-23 19:17 +0200
              I really have lost all hope and given up (Was: maplist(char_code, Chars, Codes) is bidirectional) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-23 19:31 +0200
        Do Prologers know the Unicode Range? (Was: Most radical approach is Novacore from Dogelog Player) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-27 13:21 +0200
          Can Prologers produce 100% Prolog Code? (Was: Do Prologers know the Unicode Range?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-27 13:22 +0200
            Attention: Python versus Java (Was: Can Prologers produce 100% Prolog Code?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-27 13:36 +0200
        Is there a Swiss Army Knife of launching a Prolog system (Was: Most radical approach is Novacore from Dogelog Player) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-13 15:17 +0200
          An -e option could be the more rational choice (Was: Is there a Swiss Army Knife of launching a Prolog system) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-13 15:19 +0200
        Prolog Cycle detection in the Top-Level (Was: Most radical approach is Novacore from Dogelog Player) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-20 13:39 +0200
          What does SWI-Prolog / Ciao Prolog produce? (Was: Prolog Cycle detection in the Top-Level) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-20 13:43 +0200
  Do not give dogs what is holy [Matthew 7:6] (Was: Prolog totally missed the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-23 20:33 +0200
    Typo:: Do not give dogs what is holy [Matthew 7:6] (Was: Prolog totally missed the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-23 20:38 +0200
      What WG17 could do to prevent segregation [DEC-10 Prolog (10 November 1982)] (Was: Typo:: Do not give dogs what is holy) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-23 21:16 +0200
        Avoid the cheap tricks by Scryer Prolog (Was: What WG17 could do to prevent segregation [DEC-10 Prolog (10 November 1982)]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-23 22:19 +0200
          Why tuck the tail in front of a false Messias (Was: Avoid the cheap tricks by Scryer Prolog) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-23 22:20 +0200
  Missed the AI Boom because missed the Emojis (Was: Prolog totally missed the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-29 13:32 +0200
    Bonus in Trealla Prolog, different Tokenizer (Was: Missed the AI Boom because missed the Emojis) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-29 13:36 +0200
  Science is not prepared for the AI Revolution (Was: Prolog totally missed the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-06-29 16:35 +0200
  Bart Demoen's amageddon revisited (Was: Prolog totally missed the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-09 01:55 +0200
    Long story short: Not everybody was blended by Bart Demoen (Was: Bart Demoen's amageddon revisited) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-09 02:08 +0200
      On last sample: Barty Boy in full swing (Re: Long story short: Not everybody was blended by Bart Demoen) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-09 02:12 +0200
        I hope he doesn't get a heart attack (Was: On last sample: Barty Boy in full swing) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-09 02:23 +0200
  Would Poincaré miss the AI Boom (Was: Prolog totally missed the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-10 19:17 +0200
    The ideal choice point as a logical formula (Was: Would Poincaré miss the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-10 21:22 +0200
      What is practical choice point eliminaton then? (Was: The ideal choice point as a logical formula) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-10 21:30 +0200
        Relation of the practical to the mathematical oracle (Was: What is practical choice point eliminaton then?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-10 21:35 +0200
          Should try semi-deep Prolog argument indexing (Was: Relation of the practical to the mathematical oracle) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-10 21:43 +0200
            Benefit and drawback: (Semi-)Deep indexing still rare! (Was: Should try semi-deep Prolog argument indexing) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-10 21:58 +0200
              Does DCG standard [2025] say (Semi-)Deep indexing? (Was: Benefit and drawback: (Semi-)Deep indexing still rare!) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-10 22:03 +0200
    Stack Overflow is declining, and GitHub might be next (Was: Would Poincaré miss the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-15 20:55 +0200
      GitHub 2.0: The no code companion repository (Was: Stack Overflow is declining, and GitHub might be next) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-15 21:15 +0200
    Gian-Carlo Rota’s legacy and modern AI (Was: Would Poincaré miss the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-17 12:00 +0200
  Will the world build on American Stacks? (Was: Prolog totally missed the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-14 15:55 +0200
    Analogy as a Core of Intelligence (Human & Artificial) (Re: Will the world build on American Stacks?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-17 12:14 +0200
      Alain Colmerauer Analogy : Rational Terms / Rational Numbers (Was: Analogy as a Core of Intelligence) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-17 14:33 +0200
        FYI: Peter Aczel Memorial Conference [10th September 2025] (Re: Alain Colmerauer Analogy : Rational Terms / Rational Numbers) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-17 14:57 +0200
          s/Coq/Rocq not found (Re: FYI: Peter Aczel Memorial Conference [10th September 2025]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-17 23:17 +0200
            Wonder Years are Over: Next Step Mars (Was: s/Coq/Rocq not found) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-17 23:36 +0200
          Some of the legacy of Alain Colmerauer (Re: FYI: Peter Aczel Memorial Conference [10th September 2025]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-23 19:10 +0200
  Looks like sorting of rational trees needs an existential type (Was: Prolog totally missed the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-23 13:57 +0200
    LLMs / Autoencoders could profit for Bisimulation Quotienting (Re: Looks like sorting of rational trees needs an existential type) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-23 14:03 +0200
      Are you Geh? From bi-simulation to bi-similarity (Was: LLMs / Autoencoders could profit for Bisimulation Quotienting) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-23 15:18 +0200
        Quite vibrant logic history one can experience right now! (Re: Are you Geh? From bi-simulation to bi-similarity) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-23 19:14 +0200
  The Prolog Community is extremly embarrassing (Was: Prolog totally missed the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-25 21:27 +0200
    Non-Wellfounded and Russell Paradox, what is your opinion? (Re: The Prolog Community is extremly embarrassing) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-25 21:38 +0200
      Unfinished Bimbo Stuff: 4.1. Trees as terms (Re: Non-Wellfounded and Russell Paradox, what is your opinion?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-25 23:03 +0200
        Gold medal waiting for the crankiest of cranks (Was: Unfinished Bimbo Stuff: 4.1. Trees as terms) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-26 16:10 +0200
          Old School Logicians waste time with compare/3 ? (Was: Gold medal waiting for the crankiest of cranks) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-26 16:17 +0200
            Is compare/3 a sunflower study subject? (Was: Old School Logicians waste time with compare/3 ?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-07-26 16:36 +0200
  Lattent Thinking the forbidden Fruit (Was: Prolog totally missed the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-02 11:58 +0100
  Latent Thinking the forbidden Fruit (Was: Prolog totally missed the AI Boom) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-02 12:19 +0100
    Fully automated AI researcher in your team? (Re: Latent Thinking the forbidden Fruit) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-02 13:20 +0100

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