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| From | antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.arch |
| Subject | Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? |
| Date | 2025-05-26 19:20 +0000 |
| Organization | To protect and to server |
| Message-ID | <1012euo$1fclb$1@paganini.bofh.team> (permalink) |
| References | (9 earlier) <100q47d$3k7s2$1@dont-email.me> <jwv8qmncayc.fsf-monnier+comp.arch@gnu.org> <100srqk$pos5$1@dont-email.me> <100vm4s$16av3$1@paganini.bofh.team> <100vq44$1h5c4$1@dont-email.me> |
Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> wrote:
> On 5/25/2025 11:05 AM, Waldek Hebisch wrote:
>> Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 5/23/2025 2:03 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>>> Stephen Fuld [2025-05-23 08:28:44] wrote:
>>>>> On 5/22/2025 5:18 PM, Waldek Hebisch wrote:
>>>>>> It is pretty clear that due to drive mechanics track cache/buffer
>>>>>> is useful.
>>>>> Pretty clear to everyone except one person. :-)
>>>>
>>>> 🙂
>>>>
>>>>>> However, the real question is about size: how big
>>>>>> should it be. For "consumer" drives I see claims of 256 MB
>>>>>> cache. Given rather optimistic 200 MB/s transfer rate it is
>>>>>> about 1.25s of drive data, that is 80-150 rotations. I would
>>>>>> expect that say 4 tracks should be enough for reading. For
>>>>>> writing one could use few more tracks. Still, advertised cache
>>>>>> sizes seem to be much bigger than necessary.
>>>>> It's not just the rotations, but the seek time. So your example is fewer
>>>>> "operations" than the 80-150 you get when just including rotations.
>>>>
>>>> I don't understand what you're getting at, here.
>>>> I think Waldek's argument is that 256MB corresponds approximately
>>>> to the amount of data stored in 80-150 tracks, and seek time doesn't
>>>> change that fact.
>>>
>>> Yes, I didn't express myself well. :-( And once again, I have to say
>>> that my information may be obsolete.
>>>
>>> I think it is useful to separate talking about read data from write
>>> data. For read data, as with any cache, more is always better than
>>> less, though with diminishing returns. Why pick 1.25 sec as the "cut
>>> off point"? If the host re-references data that it hasn't read for say
>>> 3 seconds, having it in cache still saves, probably a seek time and on
>>> average 1/2 rotation time. Plus, it means the heads will be free to
>>> handle other requests. All of this is standard cache benefits. I see
>>> no reason to limit the cache size and reduce this benefit.
>>
>> We are talking here about common case, that is when disc is accessed
>> via OS cache. OS cache is significantly larger than disc cache, so
>> hit ratio for data sent to host is going to be quite low. Disc
>> cache has an advantage: it gets "for free" some data that host did
>> not request. But it is rather unlikely that keeping such data
>> for long time has significant advantage.
>>
>>>>> And if you are caching writes, more cache gives you more blocks to choose
>>>>> from when optimizing the write back order, which reduces the time to write
>>>>> them all back.
>>>>
>>>> IIUC, for SATA drives, NCQ is still limited to 32 in-flight commands, so
>>>> unless the drive is allowed to do write-back caching it seems the amount
>>>> of space used for write-buffering is likely small (compared to 256MB).
>>>> [ Unless it is common for individual write commands to cover multi-MB
>>>> chunks of data? ]
>>>
>>>
>>> For write data, I was unaware of the 32 operation limit. I was used to
>>> SCSI, which, IIRC was larger, and for server type applications, where
>>> some sort of UPS is more common, the site may choose to enable write
>>> caching in the disk. For a disk vendor, given the small cost of the
>>> DRAM, it is an easy choice.
>>
>> I do not look at details of disc protocol. But with protocal done
>> right host would first transfer commands and then deliver data
>> in order requested by the drive. So most buffering would be in
>> the host and disc would need just enough buffering to ensure
>> smooth transmission and low interrupt rate. 4 track looks like
>> plenty for this purpose.
>
> No, when the disk receives a write command, it accepts the write data
> immediately (up to some large limit). That way, when the heads settle
> on the track, if the disk happens to be positioned in the middle of the
> transfer, it can write the last part of the data to the disk
> immediately, then wait for the disk to spin to where the transfer starts
> to finish the transferring the first part of the write data. This
> reduces average latency, i.e. improves performance.
Latency of writes typically is of little importance, host buffers
several seconds of of write data and writes only after delay
(ratinale for this is that data may be overwritten, by dealying
host may avoid actual disc operation). To allow scheduling in
the drive one wants commands to be sent as fast as possible.
Sending possibly bulky write data before sending next command
looks counterpoductive. There could be some data that host
wants to be in persistent storage as fast as possible, but
making it the only option clearly would be a design error in
the disc protocol.
>>>>> The larger DRAM is a small component of drive cost, so the
>>>>> manufacturers think it is worth including more.
>>>>
>>>> In some markets (e.g. home routers), the size of DRAM seems to be enough
>>>> of a cost factor that it took many years until reaching 256MBs, even
>>>> though those boxes *need* that RAM for all kinds of purposes (the 128MB
>>>> of my current home-router seems to be its main source of instability).
>>>> but HDDs are pretty damn expensive beasts nowadays (because prices have
>>>> not gone down for the last 10 years or so), so I guess that makes
>>>> the relative cost of 512MB of DRAM "negligible"?
>>>
>>> I can't comment on routers, but for disks, while the cost of the disk
>>> may not have come down, increasing capacity allows reduced cost per
>>> gigabyte. A substantial portion of the cost is not subject to Moore's
>>> law (e.g. drive motor, magnets and arm assembly, etc.) and some capacity
>>> increasing technologies cost more (but not enough more to overwhelm the
>>> capacity advantage).
>>
>> In nineties I read that for motherboard manufactures 1 cent was
>> "negligible", but 10 cents was significant: In volume transactions
>> margins were low and no party were willing to absorb 10 cents
>> per piece "loss". Discs probably are less competitive than
>> motherboards, but I would expect adding 256 MB to lead to 1
>> dollar or more increase of cost.
>
> I can't comment on your specific numbers, but assuming you are right,
> adding $1 to the cost is is small, at least in the part of the market I
> was familiar with. And remember, you are not "adding" 256MB, as some of
> that is needed for various internal operations.
Generously, buffering could do with about 8MB. I am not sure
how drives handle bad sector map, that potentially could be
quite large. But in principle drive could read infor about bad
sectors from the track, keeping in RAM only info about say bad
tracks and current track. In such case I see no reason for
large internal RAM.
--
Waldek Hebisch
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Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-28 14:50 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-28 08:48 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-28 08:46 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-28 12:08 -0400
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-28 09:20 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-28 12:52 -0400
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-28 10:15 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-28 14:16 -0400
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-28 13:37 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-28 22:28 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-28 16:00 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-29 14:23 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-29 09:56 -0400
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-29 01:54 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-28 12:32 -0400
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 13:36 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-26 23:26 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-26 20:31 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 13:45 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-26 23:24 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-25 19:16 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-25 16:27 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-26 03:01 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-25 23:58 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2025-05-26 15:36 -1000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-05-26 20:14 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-26 07:13 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 07:31 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-05-26 19:20 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 14:12 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-30 01:42 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-29 20:25 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-30 05:53 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2025-05-31 12:53 -1000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-06-02 18:04 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-03 07:14 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-25 15:21 -0500
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-26 06:46 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-05-26 16:06 +0300
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-26 16:30 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 13:00 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 13:04 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 14:15 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 15:20 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 15:40 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 16:02 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 16:07 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2025-05-27 18:40 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-27 12:28 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-27 12:42 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2025-05-29 05:10 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-29 15:31 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2025-05-30 01:17 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-29 15:33 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-27 12:28 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-26 23:12 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-26 23:32 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 19:00 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-05-27 09:43 +0200
Drive Caches (Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, ...) Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-05-25 20:55 +0000
Re: Drive Caches (Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, ...) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-26 00:07 -0400
Re: Drive Caches (Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, ...) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 00:59 -0500
Re: Drive Caches (Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-26 07:13 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-23 22:19 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2025-05-23 20:51 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-17 23:57 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? quadibloc <quadibloc@gmail.com> - 2025-05-19 21:33 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-20 00:43 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-20 13:53 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 13:19 -0500
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-20 16:06 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-20 22:11 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? David Schultz <david.schultz@earthlink.net> - 2025-05-20 19:34 -0500
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-21 01:00 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-21 00:34 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2025-05-20 21:30 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 18:39 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-21 03:41 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2025-05-21 12:09 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-21 15:30 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-22 02:45 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2025-05-21 07:06 -1000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? jseigh <jseigh_es00@xemaps.com> - 2025-05-21 17:32 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-21 07:05 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-22 02:48 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-21 08:23 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-21 14:08 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-22 02:49 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-22 17:34 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-22 17:42 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-23 01:54 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-22 22:42 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2025-05-22 23:47 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-21 00:32 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 18:29 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 18:04 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-22 16:49 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-22 18:04 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 18:31 -0700
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