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Groups > comp.theory > #119248
| From | Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory |
| Subject | Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? |
| Date | 2025-05-16 03:26 +0100 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <10067ok$3ib39$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (4 earlier) <05e306f20fcb7c88c497e353aaecd36b30fc752a.camel@gmail.com> <10053hb$3759k$1@dont-email.me> <879b3c552bad9da9885e41a298b570c92bef1aaf.camel@gmail.com> <10061h6$3de5f$1@dont-email.me> <4bce5af2b2b8cd198af611e5d8d56598cab15b0a.camel@gmail.com> |
On 16/05/2025 02:47, wij wrote:
> On Fri, 2025-05-16 at 01:40 +0100, Mike Terry wrote:
>> On 15/05/2025 19:49, wij wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2025-05-15 at 17:08 +0100, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>> On 14/05/2025 18:53, wij wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 2025-05-14 at 12:24 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/14/2025 11:43 AM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 2025-05-14 at 09:51 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2025 12:13 AM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Q: Write a turing machine that performs D function (which calls itself):
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> void D() {
>>>>>>>>> D();
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Easy?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is not a TM.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is a C program that exists. Therefore, there must be a equivalent TM.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To make a TM that references itself the closest
>>>>>>>> thing is a UTM that simulates its own TM source-code.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How does a UTM simulate its own TM source-code?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You run a UTM that has its own source-code on its tape.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is exactly the source-code on its tape?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Every UTM has some scheme which can be applied to a (TM & input tape) that is to be simulated.
>>>> The
>>>> scheme says how to turn the (TM + input tape) into a string of symbols that represent that
>>>> computation.
>>>>
>>>> So to answer your question, the "source-code on its tape" is the result of applying the UTM's
>>>> particular scheme to the combination (UTM, input tape) that is to be simulated.
>>>>
>>>> If you're looking for the exact string symbols, obviously you would need to specify the exact
>>>> UTM
>>>> being used, because every UTM will have a different answer to your question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike.
>>>
>>> People used to say UTM can simulate all TM. I was questing such a UTM.
>>> Because you said "Every UTM ...", so what is the source of such UTM?
>>
>> Yes, a UTM can simulate any TM including itself. (Nothing magical changes when a UTM simulates
>> itself, as opposed to some other TM.)
>
> Supposed UTM exists, and denoted as U(X), X denotes the tape contents of the
> encoding of a TM. And, U(X) should function the same like X.
> Given instance U(U(f)), it should function like f from the above definition.
> But, U(U(f)) would fall into a 'self-reference' trap.
There is no self-reference trap.
In your notation:
- f represents some computation.
- U(f) represents U being run with f on its tape.
Note this is itself a computation, distinct from f of course
but having the same behaviour.
- U(U(f)) represents U simulating the previous computation.
There is no reason U(f) cannot be simulated by U. U will have no knowledge that it is "simulating
itself", and will just simulate what it is given.
Mike.
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How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 13:13 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 07:02 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 09:51 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 00:43 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 18:14 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 01:33 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 18:49 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 02:01 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 19:38 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 13:00 -0700
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 15:02 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 21:19 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 21:16 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 13:49 -0700
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-14 21:13 +0000
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-15 10:24 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 22:28 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 14:40 -0700
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 23:02 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-05-15 01:09 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 17:19 -0700
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 09:38 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 09:58 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 10:11 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Ben Bacarisse <ben@bsb.me.uk> - 2025-05-15 00:55 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-15 10:17 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 12:24 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 01:39 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 12:45 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 02:13 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 01:53 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-15 17:08 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 11:47 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 03:57 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 15:50 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-16 10:33 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 10:43 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-16 12:10 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-17 11:58 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-15 19:37 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-16 10:27 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 10:40 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-19 10:21 +0200
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-19 13:39 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 23:41 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-21 11:47 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-21 07:11 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 02:49 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 14:15 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 04:08 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-16 10:45 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 10:47 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-16 21:34 +0200
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-16 10:40 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 10:44 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-17 12:02 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-16 01:40 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-16 01:59 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 09:47 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-16 03:26 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 19:40 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-16 16:33 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-17 03:35 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-16 23:51 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-17 11:01 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 22:12 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-17 11:23 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 22:40 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-17 11:49 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 22:58 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-17 09:02 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-17 15:45 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-18 03:26 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-17 14:39 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-18 11:20 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-19 04:35 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-18 15:57 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-18 17:45 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-19 05:46 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-18 17:09 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-19 06:35 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-18 19:09 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-19 07:54 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-19 13:52 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-19 13:48 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 23:36 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-21 11:56 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-05-18 15:58 -0600
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-18 17:08 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-18 19:19 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-05-18 21:21 -0600
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-18 23:07 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-19 09:54 +0200
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-19 15:29 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 23:33 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-21 12:03 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-21 07:16 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-21 21:43 +0200
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-21 14:49 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-23 13:03 +0200
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-19 13:44 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-19 13:41 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-17 20:46 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-17 14:55 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-17 16:07 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-05-16 12:22 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-16 16:57 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-05-16 21:04 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 15:38 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-17 05:21 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 16:40 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-16 20:32 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-16 17:59 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-16 10:24 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 10:37 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-15 10:07 +0300
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