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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #371622

Re: Faster than the speed of light

Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity
Date 2015-12-08 18:35 -0800
References (7 earlier) <gLednQ2vAv2o1PnLnZ2dnUU7_82dnZ2d@giganews.com> <84f4ee2d-dc7e-42f2-8c3d-d589c57fdd7a@googlegroups.com> <No2dnb2g1aDxQfjLnZ2dnUU7_8ydnZ2d@giganews.com> <5f200c65-ca33-4caf-94e1-2cd877774382@googlegroups.com> <dcpdh9Fdul7U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID <0d3fd8fe-d3a2-431e-83dc-e70958c3e268@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject Re: Faster than the speed of light
From John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com>

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On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 8:13:16 PM UTC-5, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 9/12/2015 12:08 PM, John Heath wrote:
> > On Monday, December 7, 2015 at 2:22:23 PM UTC-5, tjrob137 wrote:
> >> On 12/6/15 12/6/15 - 9:45 AM, John Heath wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, December 6, 2015 at 9:42:00 AM UTC-5, tjrob137 wrote:
> >>>> [a Bell-type experiment] Thus we see that this does not violate
> >>>> SR: causal relationships must be timelike; these measurements
> >>>> are separated by a spacelike interval, and thus cannot be
> >>>> causal. But they AREN'T, so all is well. Repeat the mantra:
> >>>>
> >>>> CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION.
> >>>
> >>> Yes if it fails a Bell test for true entanglement. Failing a Bell
> >>> test gets you off the hook to say the properties were always the
> >>> opposite from the beginning therefore it is just correlation not
> >>> causation. However if it passes a Bell test with non classical
> >>> probabilities then there is a fly in the soup.
> >>
> >> Yes, FOR YOU. No for people who understand QM (and QED).
> >>
> >> I think your basic problem is an inability for self-criticism --
> >> it's quite clear you are completely unaware of the assumptions you
> >> implicitly make; as they are WRONG, you simply cannot ask sensible
> >> questions or come to correct conclusions. And of course you remain
> >> completely oblivious of this.
> >>
> >>
> >>> The properties had to be undecided until the measurement was
> >>> made to justify non classical probabilities and return them to
> >>> classical probabilities.
> >>
> >> The problem here is that the spin of the system is a SINGLE
> >> PROPERTY -- your use of the plural "properties" is WRONG.
> >>
> >> That's one of your incorrect assumptions. Others are outlined
> >> below.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Therein is the rub. How do properties that were undecided until a
> >>> measurement is made travel FTL to the other the entangled partner
> >>> to assure it has opposite properties. This was the spooky action
> >>> at a distance that Einstein objected to.
> >>
> >> Yes, YOUR DESCRIPTION is of "spooky action at a distance", but the
> >> experiment DOES NOT CONFORM TO YOUR DESCRIPTION. Or at least the
> >> way it is modeled in QM and QED does not.
> >>
> >>
> >>> There must be something wrong with a Bell test [...]
> >>
> >> No. There _IS_ something wrong in the way you are thinking about
> >> and describing this -- YOU MAKE UNWARRANTED ASSUMPTIONS AND DON'T
> >> QUESTION THEM. And they are wrong.
> >>
> >> Bottom line: the spin OF THE SYSTEM is modeled in QM, NOT the
> >> "spins of each particle". There is a SINGLE property: spin of the
> >> system. But when the spins of the individual particles are
> >> measured, correlations violating the Bell inequalities are
> >> obtained, simply because that is how one computes them in QM.
> >>
> >> Note that QM is incapable of modeling any sort of "propagation"
> >> between the measurements. QED is able to model such things, but for
> >> these experiments that ability is not used, and NOTHING propagates
> >> between the measurements (nothing can, of course, because they are
> >> spacelike separated).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Here is how that works in more detail:
> >>
> >> Note that the handling of spins in QM is "stolen" from QED, because
> >> spins act in such a radically non-classical manner. In particular,
> >> the spin wavefunctions of QM are irreducible representations of the
> >> Lorentz group (even in non-relativistic QM). So I only need to
> >> discuss this once for both theories; I'll use QM (it's more
> >> accessible to readers).
> >>
> >> Background: In Quantum Mechanics a system is modeled by a
> >> wavefunction; here each wavefunction is the product of a spin
> >> wavefunction and a position wavefunction. As usual, to compute the
> >> probability of obtaining a given result from a measurement, one
> >> evaluates the overlap integral between the system's wavefunction
> >> and the various eigenfunctions of the operator corresponding to
> >> the measurement (probability = overlap integral squared). Each
> >> measurement yields a value corresponding to an eigenvalue, and
> >> these values (measurement results) are distributed according to
> >> each eigenfunction's probability.
> >>
> >> In a typical Bell-type experiment, two particles are generated in a
> >> state with entangled spins, the particles are separated, and their
> >> spins are measured at events with spacelike separation (i.e. light
> >> cannot propagate between them).
> >>
> >> The position wavefunction does not affect the result, because we
> >> only make measurements on the particles where they are located --
> >> the overlap of the position functions is always 1, which multiplies
> >> the spin overlap discussed next.
> >>
> >> In generating the "entangled spin state", necessarily there is a
> >> spin wavefunction FOR THE SYSTEM. Do _NOT_ think of this as
> >> describing the individual particle spins, it describes the SYSTEM'S
> >> spin.
> >>
> >> So to model the measurements of individual particles' spins, one
> >> computes the overlap integral between the system's spin
> >> wavefunction and the eigenfunctions corresponding to the two
> >> individual particle spin operators -- modeling two measurements one
> >> uses the product of the two individual-particle spin
> >> eigenfunctions. For spin measurements along a common axis (here
> >> along z), one uses the product of eigenfunctions of S_z1 and S_z2,
> >> the spin operators along the z axis for particle 1 and particle 2;
> >> the result is that the overlap integral is zero unless they
> >> individual particle spins are equal magnitude and opposite
> >> directions. In general one finds correlations which violate Bell's
> >> inequalities.
> >>
> >> Note there is NOTHING "propagating" between the measurements. Your
> >> whole confusion is resolved by simply noting that there is no
> >> "wavefunction for each particle's spin", there is only a
> >> wavefunction FOR THE SYSTEM -- that _IS_ how QM works. Yes, this is
> >> counter-intuitive and does not conform to your GUESSES about how
> >> the world works -- that's YOUR problem, not mine, not QM's, and
> >> not Bell's.
> >>
> >> Yes, this violates Bell's inequalities. In his derivation of them
> >> he assumed locality, but this spin wavefunction is NOT local in the
> >> sense he needed (the system is not local).
> >>
> >>
> >> Tom Roberts
> >
> > Take it easy the number of coffees . This post sounds sounds like the
> > attention span of a gerbil going off in six different directions.
> > This is not a competition. You are clearly more knowledgeable than I
> > so please stop competing with me.
> >
> > Now that the social pecking order has been set aside the way is clear
> > to talk physics.
> >
> > A] A Bell test is about classical vs non classical probabilities
> > period. If it is non classical then there is a fly in the soup that
> > has to be rectified.
> >
> > B] A Bell test on the polarization of entangled photons leads to non
> > classical probabilities so there is a fly in the soup that needs to
> > be rectified.
> >
> > C] The most popular solution is to say the polarization of the
> > entangled photons was undecided until the measurement is made. This
> > will return non classical probabilities to classical probabilities.
> > The soup no longer has a fly.
> >
> > I can go on and on about why this solution works as well as provide
> > software simulations to show that it works but first I need to know
> > if you agree with A , B and C before proceeding. One step at a time
> > and there is no hurry , take it easy on the coffees :<).
> >
> 
> You won't get anywhere with a software simulation unless it cheats and 
> simulates non-locality. If it doesn't simulate non-locality then it 
> itself is a local model, and by virtue of Bell's theorem, it cannot 
> simulate the actual results.
> 
> Sylvia.

Agree. The purpose of the software simulation of Alice and Bob entangled photon polarization measurements is to put a finger on why the results are non classical to gain a better understanding of a Bell test. As to returning non classical probabilities to classical probabilities there are a few solutions. As you say the software is not a determinant of which is correct. I arbitrarily picked the most popular solution of undecided polarization until measurement was made. The software was not intended to show which solution is correct. Only to gain a feel of how a Bell test is done and how to make a distinction between classical and non classical probabilities.

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Faster than the speed of light Omar Shabsigh <omar.shabsigh@gmail.com> - 2015-11-28 04:36 -0800
  Re: Faster than the speed of light "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-28 07:09 -0800
  Re: Faster than the speed of light Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-28 07:41 -0800
    Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 05:35 -0800
    Re: Faster than the speed of light Ned Latham <nedlatham@internode.on.net> - 2015-12-02 05:13 -0600
      Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-02 22:47 +1100
        Re: Faster than the speed of light Ned Latham <nedlatham@internode.on.net> - 2015-12-04 09:31 -0600
          Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-05 14:09 +1100
            Re: Faster than the speed of light Ned Latham <nedlatham@internode.on.net> - 2015-12-06 09:42 -0600
              Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-07 10:57 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Ned Latham <nedlatham@internode.on.net> - 2015-12-16 11:08 -0600
      Re: Faster than the speed of light Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-02 03:55 -0800
        Re: Faster than the speed of light Ned Latham <nedlatham@internode.on.net> - 2015-12-04 09:35 -0600
          Re: Faster than the speed of light Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-04 09:43 -0800
            Re: Faster than the speed of light Ned Latham <nedlatham@internode.on.net> - 2015-12-06 10:03 -0600
          Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-05 14:13 +1100
            Re: Faster than the speed of light Ned Latham <nedlatham@internode.on.net> - 2015-12-06 10:07 -0600
      Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-02 10:40 -0600
        Re: Faster than the speed of light Carl Heinz Krüger <heinzkrueger@ubernetz.org> - 2015-12-02 17:43 +0000
        Re: Faster than the speed of light Ned Latham <nedlatham@internode.on.net> - 2015-12-04 09:39 -0600
          Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-04 12:50 -0600
            Re: Faster than the speed of light Ned Latham <nedlatham@internode.on.net> - 2015-12-06 10:28 -0600
        Re: Faster than the speed of light RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-04 09:38 -0800
          Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-04 12:53 -0600
            Re: Faster than the speed of light RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-05 01:55 -0800
              Re: Faster than the speed of light Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-12-05 11:49 +0100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-12-05 18:06 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-12-06 10:25 +0100
              Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-06 08:41 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-06 07:45 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-07 11:06 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-07 13:22 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-12-07 15:04 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-12-07 15:10 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-08 17:08 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-09 12:13 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-08 18:35 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-12-08 19:41 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-10 18:07 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-09 15:08 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-09 03:43 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-09 13:02 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-09 11:18 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-09 15:25 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-12-09 14:27 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Plexippus Kritikos <plexik@laertesegidio.org> - 2015-12-09 22:41 +0000
                Re: Faster than the speed of light "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-12-09 18:04 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Plexippus Kritikos <plexik@laertesegidio.org> - 2015-12-10 15:34 +0000
                Re: Faster than the speed of light "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-12-10 19:21 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Plexippus Kritikos <plexik@laertesegidio.org> - 2015-12-11 23:17 +0000
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-10 00:14 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-12-09 23:58 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Plexippus Kritikos <plexik@laertesegidio.org> - 2015-12-10 15:33 +0000
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-10 11:39 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Plexippus Kritikos <plexik@laertesegidio.org> - 2015-12-10 18:31 +0000
                Re: Faster than the speed of light RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-10 15:49 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-12-10 16:41 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-10 22:50 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-11 04:07 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Plexippus Kritikos <plexik@laertesegidio.org> - 2015-12-11 23:37 +0000
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-11 20:05 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-11 18:18 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-12-12 09:55 +0100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 05:43 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-11 20:24 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-11 18:39 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-11 18:54 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 02:22 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-12 12:00 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 11:56 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-12 17:25 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-12-13 01:15 +0100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Plexippus Kritikos <plexik@laertesegidio.org> - 2015-12-13 00:19 +0000
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-12 17:24 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-13 18:49 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 18:20 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-13 14:58 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 20:24 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-12 14:00 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 02:48 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-12 22:38 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 09:25 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-13 13:12 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 20:08 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-13 16:01 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-13 05:34 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light alsor@interia.pl - 2015-12-13 06:53 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-13 18:58 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-13 21:02 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-15 18:42 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2015-12-15 23:33 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-19 17:03 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light David Fuller <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-20 06:55 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light alsor@interia.pl - 2015-12-20 08:50 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light David Fuller <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-20 11:19 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 23:10 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light alsor@interia.pl - 2015-12-24 12:09 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-12-24 21:55 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light alsor@interia.pl - 2015-12-26 10:28 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Omar Shabsigh <omar.shabsigh@gmail.com> - 2016-01-03 00:03 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-24 09:32 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-25 19:43 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 03:21 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-14 22:38 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 04:08 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-15 11:13 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-12 12:03 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-12 17:15 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-13 13:14 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 13:57 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Plexippus Kritikos <plexik@laertesegidio.org> - 2015-12-11 23:42 +0000
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-13 12:15 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Plexippus Kritikos <plexik@laertesegidio.org> - 2015-12-11 23:29 +0000
                Re: Faster than the speed of light JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 15:32 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Plexippus Kritikos <plexik@laertesegidio.org> - 2015-12-11 23:47 +0000
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Plexippus Kritikos <plexik@laertesegidio.org> - 2015-12-11 23:34 +0000
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-11 20:21 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Plexippus Kritikos <plexik@laertesegidio.org> - 2015-12-12 16:31 +0000
                Re: Faster than the speed of light RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-12 00:52 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-11 00:11 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Plexippus Kritikos <plexik@laertesegidio.org> - 2015-12-12 16:59 +0000
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-09 13:30 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-12-09 14:12 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Plexippus Kritikos <plexik@laertesegidio.org> - 2015-12-09 22:32 +0000
                Re: Faster than the speed of light RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-10 15:37 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-13 12:50 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-12-10 18:10 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-11 16:35 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-12-07 14:53 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-08 12:22 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-12-07 18:47 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-08 15:33 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-12-07 21:43 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-12-07 19:40 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-10 00:27 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-08 12:58 -0800
  Re: Faster than the speed of light "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2015-11-28 07:56 -0800
  Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-11-29 15:50 +1100
    Re: Faster than the speed of light Carl Heinz Krüger <heinzkrueger@ubernetz.org> - 2015-11-30 16:21 +0000
      Re: Faster than the speed of light "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-30 08:40 -0800
        Re: Faster than the speed of light Carl Heinz Krüger <heinzkrueger@ubernetz.org> - 2015-11-30 16:55 +0000
          Re: Faster than the speed of light "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-30 09:28 -0800
            Re: Faster than the speed of light "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-30 09:31 -0800
          Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-11-30 12:14 -0600
            Re: Faster than the speed of light Carl Heinz Krüger <heinzkrueger@ubernetz.org> - 2015-11-30 18:25 +0000
          Re: Faster than the speed of light John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-30 21:23 -0800
            Re: Faster than the speed of light "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-30 21:50 -0800
              Re: Faster than the speed of light John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-30 22:20 -0800
            Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-01 17:38 +1100
              Re: Faster than the speed of light John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-30 22:50 -0800
            Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-01 11:02 -0600
          Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-01 17:40 +1100
          Re: Faster than the speed of light Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-01 07:44 +0100
            Re: Faster than the speed of light Carl Heinz Krüger <heinzkrueger@ubernetz.org> - 2015-12-01 19:54 +0000
      Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-11-30 11:51 -0600
        Re: Faster than the speed of light Carl Heinz Krüger <heinzkrueger@ubernetz.org> - 2015-11-30 18:03 +0000
    Re: Faster than the speed of light Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-01 07:41 +0100
      Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-01 19:11 +1100
        Re: Faster than the speed of light Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-01 22:42 +0100
          Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-02 10:20 +1100
            Re: Faster than the speed of light Carl Heinz Krüger <heinzkrueger@ubernetz.org> - 2015-12-01 23:32 +0000
            Re: Faster than the speed of light Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-02 00:53 +0100
              Re: Faster than the speed of light Carl Heinz Krüger <heinzkrueger@ubernetz.org> - 2015-12-02 00:03 +0000
              Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-02 11:14 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-02 02:03 +0100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 19:33 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 10:34 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-02 22:49 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-02 10:21 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Carl Heinz Krüger <heinzkrueger@ubernetz.org> - 2015-12-02 17:30 +0000
                Re: Faster than the speed of light RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-03 09:21 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-04 10:00 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-03 17:34 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-03 16:04 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-04 09:00 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-05 14:03 +1100
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-05 22:50 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-08 12:29 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-04 20:07 -0800
      Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-01 11:14 -0600
        Re: Faster than the speed of light kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-12-02 05:46 -0800
          Re: Faster than the speed of light fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-12-02 08:26 -0800
            Re: Faster than the speed of light fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-12-02 09:38 -0800
              Re: Faster than the speed of light Carl Heinz Krüger <heinzkrueger@ubernetz.org> - 2015-12-02 17:45 +0000
                Re: Faster than the speed of light fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-12-02 20:10 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-12-03 05:58 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-12-03 17:11 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-12-03 17:25 -0800
          Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-02 10:43 -0600
            Re: Faster than the speed of light kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-12-03 08:43 -0800
              Re: Faster than the speed of light Carl Heinz Krüger <heinzkrueger@ubernetz.org> - 2015-12-03 16:56 +0000
              Re: Faster than the speed of light Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-03 12:41 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-12-03 13:29 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-03 16:30 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-12-04 11:56 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-04 16:52 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-12-07 05:58 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 08:34 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-12-04 18:04 -0600
                Re: Faster than the speed of light kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-12-07 06:20 -0800
                Re: Faster than the speed of light Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 08:35 -0600
      Re: Faster than the speed of light JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 11:52 -0800
        Re: Faster than the speed of light Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-01 22:44 +0100
          Re: Faster than the speed of light JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 14:04 -0800
            Re: Faster than the speed of light Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-01 23:54 +0100
  Re: Faster than the speed of light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-11-30 11:32 -0600
    Re: Faster than the speed of light Carl Heinz Krüger <heinzkrueger@ubernetz.org> - 2015-11-30 18:49 +0000
      Re: Faster than the speed of light Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-11-30 20:15 +0100
        Re: Faster than the speed of light Carl Heinz Krüger <heinzkrueger@ubernetz.org> - 2015-11-30 19:22 +0000
          Re: Faster than the speed of light Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 10:51 +0100
            Re: Faster than the speed of light Carl Heinz Krüger <heinzkrueger@ubernetz.org> - 2015-12-01 19:45 +0000
          Re: Faster than the speed of light Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 10:55 +0100
            Re: Faster than the speed of light Carl Heinz Krüger <heinzkrueger@ubernetz.org> - 2015-12-01 19:48 +0000
  Re: Faster than the speed of light Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 10:16 -0600
  Re: Faster than the speed of light Adrian Ferent <adrferent@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 10:20 -0800
    Re: Faster than the speed of light fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-12-02 12:11 -0800
  Re: Faster than the speed of light Adrian Ferent <adrferent@gmail.com> - 2015-12-21 13:45 -0800
    Re: Faster than the speed of light Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-21 16:55 -0600
      Re: Faster than the speed of light Ezra Farrow <ezrafa@dubtechno.org> - 2015-12-21 23:15 +0000
        Re: Faster than the speed of light Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-12-22 12:16 +1100
          Re: Faster than the speed of light John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-21 17:48 -0800
      Re: Faster than the speed of light John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-21 16:41 -0800

csiph-web