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Groups > sci.space.policy > #55633 > unrolled thread

The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon

Started bydumpster4@hotmail.com
First post2016-03-25 10:02 -0700
Last post2016-04-11 19:09 -0700
Articles 20 on this page of 457 — 20 participants

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Contents

  The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon dumpster4@hotmail.com - 2016-03-25 10:02 -0700
    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-25 18:38 -0700
    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon bob haller <hallerb@aol.com> - 2016-03-26 11:50 -0700
      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-26 16:38 -0700
        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon dumpster4@hotmail.com - 2016-03-26 23:05 -0700
        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 00:28 -0700
          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 16:56 -0700
            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2016-03-27 22:26 -0400
              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 19:51 -0700
      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-03 12:52 -0400
        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-03 17:07 +0000
          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-03 15:28 -0700
            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-03 18:06 -0700
              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-03 18:36 -0700
              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 01:38 -0700
          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-04 15:20 +0000
            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-04 18:35 +0000
              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 12:58 -0700
              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon bob haller <hallerb@aol.com> - 2016-04-04 20:13 -0700
                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 23:50 -0700
                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 20:02 -0700
              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jack Ryan <mixmaster@remailer.cpunk.us> - 2016-04-05 03:50 -0400
                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-05 18:20 +0000
                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 16:14 -0700
                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-05 18:47 -0500
                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 00:00 -0700
                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-04-07 06:10 -0400
                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 18:51 +0000
                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 16:35 -0700
                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-08 14:23 -0500
                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:25 -0700
                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 09:57 -0500
                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 09:55 -0700
                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:38 -0700
                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 10:20 -0700
                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 12:53 -0500
                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:01 -0700
                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 19:38 -0500
                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 00:27 -0700
                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 17:44 -0700
                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 00:28 +0000
                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-05 22:14 -0400
                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 03:38 +0000
                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:58 -0400
                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:17 +0000
                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 00:07 -0700
                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-04-07 06:24 -0400
                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 04:54 -0700
                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 05:53 -0700
                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:03 +0000
                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 16:47 -0700
                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 19:53 -0600
                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 03:42 +0000
                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 23:06 -0600
                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:05 +0000
                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:34 -0700
                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-07 19:18 +0000
                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 13:04 -0700
                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-07 21:07 +0000
                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 00:03 -0700
                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 17:50 +0000
                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:03 -0700
                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 21:47 +0000
                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:24 -0700
                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-09 13:55 +0000
                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 10:08 -0500
                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:51 -0700
                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:07 +0000
                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:49 -0700
                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:16 +0000
                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:07 -0700
                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:16 +0000
                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:46 -0700
                                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:23 +0000
                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 15:19 -0700
                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 22:49 +0000
                                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:02 -0700
                                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 04:05 +0000
                                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 01:41 -0700
                                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:18 +0000
                                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:20 -0700
                                                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 12:53 -0500
                                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:02 -0700
                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 12:06 +0000
                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:57 -0700
                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 14:17 +0000
                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 08:26 -0700
                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 16:40 +0000
                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 15:38 -0700
                                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-11 19:06 +0000
                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:50 +0000
                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 20:02 -0700
                                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:16 +0000
                                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:03 -0700
                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:54 -0700
                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:18 +0000
                                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:04 -0700
                                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 22:33 +0000
                                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 21:48 -0700
                                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 05:02 +0000
                                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 00:07 -0700
                                                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:35 +0000
                                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:23 -0700
                                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:09 +0000
                                                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 13:36 -0700
                                                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 21:06 +0000
                                                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:24 -0700
                                                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 02:51 +0000
                                                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 21:03 -0700
                                                                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:36 +0000
                                                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:56 -0700
                                                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:02 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 13:40 -0700
                                                                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:09 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 15:40 -0700
                                                                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:53 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:24 -0700
                                                                                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:42 +0000
                                                                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:24 -0700
                                                                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 04:13 +0000
                                                                                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 22:02 -0700
                                                                                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:04 +0000
                                                                                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:21 -0700
                                                                                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 22:42 +0000
                                                                                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 01:33 -0700
                                                                                                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:22 +0000
                                                                                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:07 -0700
                                                                                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:20 +0000
                                                                                                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:52 -0700
                                                                                                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 20:44 +0000
                                                                                                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:35 -0700
                                                                                                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-17 05:22 +0000
                                                                                                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 23:55 -0700
                                                                                                                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 12:54 -0500
                                                                                                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:03 -0700
                                                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon dumpster4@hotmail.com - 2016-04-14 08:58 -0700
                                                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 13:28 -0700
                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 14:28 -0700
                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:26 +0000
                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 23:49 -0700
                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:24 +0000
                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:10 -0700
                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:40 +0000
                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:55 -0700
                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:11 +0000
                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:49 -0700
                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:21 +0000
                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:57 -0700
                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:29 +0000
                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:30 -0700
                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-09 00:01 -0600
                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 09:03 -0700
                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Womack <twomack@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-04-09 09:21 +0100
                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:24 +0000
                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 14:47 -0700
                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 16:54 -0700
                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 15:49 +0000
                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 10:45 -0700
                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 19:08 +0000
                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:22 -0700
                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:41 +0000
                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:50 -0700
                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-06 17:39 +0000
                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:08 +0000
                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:36 -0700
                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:06 +0000
                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 12:59 -0700
                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:28 +0000
                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 23:52 -0700
                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:26 +0000
                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:14 -0700
                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:42 +0000
                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:57 -0700
                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:14 +0000
                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:52 -0700
                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:31 +0000
                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:00 -0700
                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:34 +0000
                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:42 -0700
                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:07 -0500
                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:25 -0700
                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:57 -0700
                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-07 15:55 +0000
                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:14 +0000
                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 14:54 +0000
                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:36 +0000
                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:00 -0700
                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:36 +0000
                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:44 -0700
                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:19 +0000
                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:47 -0700
                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 16:28 -0700
                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-09 18:17 -0600
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                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-10 16:50 +0000
                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:13 +0000
                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-11 16:41 +0000
                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:21 +0000
                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-12 15:48 +0000
                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:21 +0000
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                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:26 -0700
                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 00:03 -0700
              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-05 17:42 +0000
                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-05 18:32 +0000
                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 15:09 -0400
                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-07 08:28 -0400
                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-06 17:56 +0000
                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:35 +0000
                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 15:43 -0400
                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 20:08 +0000
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                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:51 -0700
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                                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:09 -0500
                                                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:26 -0700
                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 20:29 +0000
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                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-07 16:20 +0000
                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:09 +0000
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                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 05:49 -0400
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                                                                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:32 +0000
                                                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:48 -0700
                                                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:43 +0000
                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-10 17:22 +0000
                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:56 +0000
                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 17:44 -0700
                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:30 +0000
                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:46 -0700
                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 05:21 +0000
                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 01:43 -0700
                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-11 16:48 +0000
                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Rick Jones <rick.jones2@hpe.com> - 2016-04-11 18:52 +0000
                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:08 +0000
                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-12 15:53 +0000
                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:23 +0000
                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:32 -0700
                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:13 +0000
                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:06 -0700
                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:52 +0000
                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:54 -0700
                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:33 +0000
                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:09 -0700
                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:06 +0000
                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:45 -0700
                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-13 15:39 +0000
                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 09:34 -0700
                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:59 +0000
                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:57 -0700
                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:34 +0000
                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:15 -0700
                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:06 +0000
                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:47 -0700
                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:05 +0000
                                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:30 -0700
                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:26 +0000
                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:56 -0700
                                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:25 +0000
                                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:30 -0700
                                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 02:09 +0000
                                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 21:41 -0700
                                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:33 +0000
                                                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:49 -0700
                                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:46 +0000
                                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 02:38 -0700
                                                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:57 +0000
                                                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:25 -0700
                                                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:21 +0000
                                                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:55 -0700
                                                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 20:49 +0000
                                                                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:39 -0700
                                                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-17 05:23 +0000
                                                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 23:58 -0700
                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-14 16:46 +0000
                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:06 +0000
                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:31 -0700
                                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:27 +0000
                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:56 -0700
                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:26 +0000
                                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:32 -0700
                                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 02:10 +0000
                                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 21:41 -0700
                                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:34 +0000
                                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:50 -0700
                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:53 +0000
                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:56 -0700
                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:35 +0000
                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:17 -0700
                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:07 +0000
                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:48 -0700
                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:08 +0000
                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:35 -0700
                                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:29 +0000
                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:05 -0700
                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:32 +0000
                                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:20 -0700
                                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:38 +0000
                                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 16:00 -0700
                                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:52 +0000
                                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 02:49 -0700
                                                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:59 +0000
                                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:26 -0700
                                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:22 +0000
                                                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:54 -0700
                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:12 -0700
                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:24 +0000
                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:34 -0700
                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:15 +0000
                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:18 -0700
                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 18:07 +0000
                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 13:01 -0700
                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:39 +0000
                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:22 -0700
                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:08 +0000
                                                        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:49 -0700
                                                          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:10 +0000
                                                            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:39 -0700
                                                              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:30 +0000
                                                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:07 -0700
                                                                  Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:34 +0000
                                                                    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:21 -0700
                                                                      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:39 +0000
                                Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 04:03 -0700
    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-03-28 11:47 +1100
      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 21:35 -0700
      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2016-03-28 08:12 -0400
        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2016-03-28 19:10 -0400
          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2016-03-28 20:10 -0400
          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-03-29 07:42 -0400
            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2016-03-29 18:17 -0400
              Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <mooregr@deletethisgreenms.com> - 2016-03-29 23:03 -0400
            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-29 21:06 -0700
            Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-29 21:19 -0700
        Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 20:56 -0700
          Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-29 04:32 -0700
    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 23:58 -0700
    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon bob haller <hallerb@aol.com> - 2016-04-07 20:26 -0700
    Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 08:21 -0700
      Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:09 -0700

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#55698

Fromjimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Date2016-04-06 00:28 +0000
Message-ID<nq1etc-hec.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
In reply to#55696
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> 
>>In sci.physics Jack Ryan <mixmaster@remailer.cpunk.us> wrote:
>>> In article <1poatc-pc1.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>>>> > For your reference, records indicate that
>>>> > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> > Actually we could start building it as soon as the Falcon Heavy becomes
>>>> >> > operational:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > NASA scientists say we could colonise the Moon by 2022... for just $10
>>>> >> > billion.
>>>> >> > What are we waiting for?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> $10 billion without a better purpose?
>>>> >
>>>> > Some might argue that blowing up shit in the Middle East is not a
>>>> > better purpose.  A more pointed question would be whether or not that
>>>> > budget and timeline is actually accurate, or if it won?t be more like
>>>> > $200 billion spent and a wait until 2035.
>>>> >
>>>> >> Some rational reason to "colonise" the moon, which will never happen
>>>> >> as no Moon colony could ever be self supporting.
>>>> >
>>>> > History has shown a pretty big halo effect for such projects, so I
>>>> > would expect quite a bit of indirect economic value in new Moon and
>>>> > Mars missions.  But I would agree that NASA would do well to make a
>>>> > more direct case for why a Moon colony would be a valuable resource
>>>> > to have.
>>>>
>>>> All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and
>>>> growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. ....
>>> 
>>> Iceland? Greenland? Northern Newfundland?
>>> 
>>> Hell, for much of Europe surviving after being dropped nude in the 
>>> Winter is not likely.
>>> 
>>> If the Pilgrims had landed at Plymouth bare assed in the Winter 
>>> they would probably not have survived long.
>>> 
>>> You might want to amend your statement about all historical 
>>> colonies.
>>>
>>
>>OK, dropped in with nothing more than a heavy winter coat.
>>
> 
> Colonies with insufficient support from 'back home' tended to
> disappear.  You talk like all colonization attempts are easily
> successful.  There are enough failed colonies to prove that to be
> bullshit.

I never said anything like that.

However, support from 'back home' wasn't oxygen, food, water, and
repair parts for high tech equipment.

For the most part it was luxury items such as good china before such
manufacturing could be established in the colonies.

In return the colonies, depending on where they were, sent back things
like spices, precious metals, furs, and timber.

There is nothing off the Earth so valuable it would be worth the
shipping cost in fuel to send it back to Earth.

>>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century
>>technology to survive.
>>
> 
> Bullshit.  Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the
> skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best
> technology available at the time.
 
And that technology, except for a very few things like muskets, dates
back to at least the 10th Century.

And, BTW, the indigious populations where most colonies where established
were surviving just fine on Stone Age technology long before the Europeans
appeared.

 

-- 
Jim Pennino

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55701

From"Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com>
Date2016-04-05 22:14 -0400
Message-ID<ne1r84$9eo$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#55698
Some experiments suggest we might be able to grow food on Mars if we add the 
organics commonly found in Earth soils:

Scientists just grew vegetables in ‘Martian’ soil — but there’s a catch.
By Rachel Feltman March 9
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/03/09/scientists-just-grew-vegetables-in-martian-soil-but-theres-a-catch/

  But Mars Curiosity, finally, has shown Mars soils do contain organics. 
Then we may be able to produce the needed organics from those already there.

   Bob Clark


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize 
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital 
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/nanotech-from-air-to-space/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wrote in message news:nq1etc-hec.ln1@mail.specsol.com...

In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>
>>In sci.physics Jack Ryan <mixmaster@remailer.cpunk.us> wrote:
>>> In article <1poatc-pc1.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>>>> > For your reference, records indicate that
>>>> > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> 
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >> > Actually we could start building it as soon as the Falcon Heavy 
>>>> >> > becomes
>>>> >> > operational:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > NASA scientists say we could colonise the Moon by 2022... for just 
>>>> >> > $10
>>>> >> > billion.
>>>> >> > What are we waiting for?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> $10 billion without a better purpose?
>>>> >
>>>> > Some might argue that blowing up shit in the Middle East is not a
>>>> > better purpose.  A more pointed question would be whether or not that
>>>> > budget and timeline is actually accurate, or if it won?t be more like
>>>> > $200 billion spent and a wait until 2035.
>>>> >
>>>> >> Some rational reason to "colonise" the moon, which will never happen
>>>> >> as no Moon colony could ever be self supporting.
>>>> >
>>>> > History has shown a pretty big halo effect for such projects, so I
>>>> > would expect quite a bit of indirect economic value in new Moon and
>>>> > Mars missions.  But I would agree that NASA would do well to make a
>>>> > more direct case for why a Moon colony would be a valuable resource
>>>> > to have.
>>>>
>>>> All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and
>>>> growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. ....
>>>
>>> Iceland? Greenland? Northern Newfundland?
>>>
>>> Hell, for much of Europe surviving after being dropped nude in the
>>> Winter is not likely.
>>>
>>> If the Pilgrims had landed at Plymouth bare assed in the Winter
>>> they would probably not have survived long.
>>>
>>> You might want to amend your statement about all historical
>>> colonies.
>>>
>>
>>OK, dropped in with nothing more than a heavy winter coat.
>>
>
> Colonies with insufficient support from 'back home' tended to
> disappear.  You talk like all colonization attempts are easily
> successful.  There are enough failed colonies to prove that to be
> bullshit.

I never said anything like that.

However, support from 'back home' wasn't oxygen, food, water, and
repair parts for high tech equipment.

For the most part it was luxury items such as good china before such
manufacturing could be established in the colonies.

In return the colonies, depending on where they were, sent back things
like spices, precious metals, furs, and timber.

There is nothing off the Earth so valuable it would be worth the
shipping cost in fuel to send it back to Earth.

>>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century
>>technology to survive.
>>
>
> Bullshit.  Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the
> skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best
> technology available at the time.

And that technology, except for a very few things like muskets, dates
back to at least the 10th Century.

And, BTW, the indigious populations where most colonies where established
were surviving just fine on Stone Age technology long before the Europeans
appeared.

-- 
Jim Pennino

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55702

Fromjimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Date2016-04-06 03:38 +0000
Message-ID<tucetc-5hd.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
In reply to#55701
In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
> 
> Some experiments suggest we might be able to grow food on Mars if we add the 
> organics commonly found in Earth soils:

And nitrogen for the air, nitrates for the soil and water and put them
under a heated pressure dome.

As long as they are plants that don't require a lot of sunlight, in which
case you have to add grow lights.

Don't forget the pumps to keep the dome pressurized and the huge power
source for the pumps and possible grow lights.

Of course, you will need most of that stuff anyway, except for the nitrogen
and nitrates, to keep humans alive.

-- 
Jim Pennino

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#56242

From"Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com>
Date2016-04-16 11:58 -0400
Message-ID<netn8l$q6q$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#55701
There is also this:

Chinese Use Space Radiation to Mutate Food Crops.
http://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/space-hazards/radiation/chinese-space-radiation-mutate-food-crops/

Six foot cucumbers. Yum!

  Bob Clark



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize 
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital 
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/nanotech-from-air-to-space/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Robert Clark"  wrote in message news:ne1r84$9eo$2@dont-email.me...


Some experiments suggest we might be able to grow food on Mars if we add the
organics commonly found in Earth soils:

Scientists just grew vegetables in ‘Martian’ soil — but there’s a catch.
By Rachel Feltman March 9
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/03/09/scientists-just-grew-vegetables-in-martian-soil-but-theres-a-catch/

  But Mars Curiosity, finally, has shown Mars soils do contain organics.
Then we may be able to produce the needed organics from those already there.

   Bob Clark


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/nanotech-from-air-to-space/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wrote in message news:nq1etc-hec.ln1@mail.specsol.com...

In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>
>>In sci.physics Jack Ryan <mixmaster@remailer.cpunk.us> wrote:
>>> In article <1poatc-pc1.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>>>> > For your reference, records indicate that
>>>> > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> 
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >> > Actually we could start building it as soon as the Falcon Heavy 
>>>> >> > becomes
>>>> >> > operational:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > NASA scientists say we could colonise the Moon by 2022... for just 
>>>> >> > $10
>>>> >> > billion.
>>>> >> > What are we waiting for?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> $10 billion without a better purpose?
>>>> >
>>>> > Some might argue that blowing up shit in the Middle East is not a
>>>> > better purpose.  A more pointed question would be whether or not that
>>>> > budget and timeline is actually accurate, or if it won?t be more like
>>>> > $200 billion spent and a wait until 2035.
>>>> >
>>>> >> Some rational reason to "colonise" the moon, which will never happen
>>>> >> as no Moon colony could ever be self supporting.
>>>> >
>>>> > History has shown a pretty big halo effect for such projects, so I
>>>> > would expect quite a bit of indirect economic value in new Moon and
>>>> > Mars missions.  But I would agree that NASA would do well to make a
>>>> > more direct case for why a Moon colony would be a valuable resource
>>>> > to have.
>>>>
>>>> All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and
>>>> growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. ....
>>>
>>> Iceland? Greenland? Northern Newfundland?
>>>
>>> Hell, for much of Europe surviving after being dropped nude in the
>>> Winter is not likely.
>>>
>>> If the Pilgrims had landed at Plymouth bare assed in the Winter
>>> they would probably not have survived long.
>>>
>>> You might want to amend your statement about all historical
>>> colonies.
>>>
>>
>>OK, dropped in with nothing more than a heavy winter coat.
>>
>
> Colonies with insufficient support from 'back home' tended to
> disappear.  You talk like all colonization attempts are easily
> successful.  There are enough failed colonies to prove that to be
> bullshit.

I never said anything like that.

However, support from 'back home' wasn't oxygen, food, water, and
repair parts for high tech equipment.

For the most part it was luxury items such as good china before such
manufacturing could be established in the colonies.

In return the colonies, depending on where they were, sent back things
like spices, precious metals, furs, and timber.

There is nothing off the Earth so valuable it would be worth the
shipping cost in fuel to send it back to Earth.

>>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century
>>technology to survive.
>>
>
> Bullshit.  Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the
> skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best
> technology available at the time.

And that technology, except for a very few things like muskets, dates
back to at least the 10th Century.

And, BTW, the indigious populations where most colonies where established
were surviving just fine on Stone Age technology long before the Europeans
appeared.

-- 
Jim Pennino



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus 

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#56243

Fromjimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Date2016-04-16 16:17 +0000
Message-ID<j55auc-2dk.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
In reply to#56242
In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
> There is also this:
> 
> Chinese Use Space Radiation to Mutate Food Crops.
> http://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/space-hazards/radiation/chinese-space-radiation-mutate-food-crops/
> 
> Six foot cucumbers. Yum!
> 
>  Bob Clark
 
Given all the hoopla over GMO, I'm sure this would be well received... 

-- 
Jim Pennino

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55706

FromFred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com>
Date2016-04-06 00:07 -0700
Message-ID<l4d9gbd9lgupq29j4muavomosib6gecl06@4ax.com>
In reply to#55698
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>> 
>>>In sci.physics Jack Ryan <mixmaster@remailer.cpunk.us> wrote:
>>>> In article <1poatc-pc1.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>>>>> > For your reference, records indicate that
>>>>> > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> > Actually we could start building it as soon as the Falcon Heavy becomes
>>>>> >> > operational:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > NASA scientists say we could colonise the Moon by 2022... for just $10
>>>>> >> > billion.
>>>>> >> > What are we waiting for?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> $10 billion without a better purpose?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Some might argue that blowing up shit in the Middle East is not a
>>>>> > better purpose.  A more pointed question would be whether or not that
>>>>> > budget and timeline is actually accurate, or if it won?t be more like
>>>>> > $200 billion spent and a wait until 2035.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Some rational reason to "colonise" the moon, which will never happen
>>>>> >> as no Moon colony could ever be self supporting.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > History has shown a pretty big halo effect for such projects, so I
>>>>> > would expect quite a bit of indirect economic value in new Moon and
>>>>> > Mars missions.  But I would agree that NASA would do well to make a
>>>>> > more direct case for why a Moon colony would be a valuable resource
>>>>> > to have.
>>>>>
>>>>> All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and
>>>>> growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. ....
>>>> 
>>>> Iceland? Greenland? Northern Newfundland?
>>>> 
>>>> Hell, for much of Europe surviving after being dropped nude in the 
>>>> Winter is not likely.
>>>> 
>>>> If the Pilgrims had landed at Plymouth bare assed in the Winter 
>>>> they would probably not have survived long.
>>>> 
>>>> You might want to amend your statement about all historical 
>>>> colonies.
>>>>
>>>
>>>OK, dropped in with nothing more than a heavy winter coat.
>>>
>> 
>> Colonies with insufficient support from 'back home' tended to
>> disappear.  You talk like all colonization attempts are easily
>> successful.  There are enough failed colonies to prove that to be
>> bullshit.
>>
>
>I never said anything like that.
>

Of course you did.

>
>However, support from 'back home' wasn't oxygen, food, water, and
>repair parts for high tech equipment.
>

Lots of that last one so that they could do those first three.  Just
like what a modern colony would require.

>
>For the most part it was luxury items such as good china before such
>manufacturing could be established in the colonies.
>

You mean that 'high tech equipment.  That wasn't 'luxuries' and
colonies that didn't get it tended to fail.

>
>In return the colonies, depending on where they were, sent back things
>like spices, precious metals, furs, and timber.
>

Mostly Spanish and French colonies were like that.  There's a reason
why those tended to fail and North American is largely derived from
English colonies which didn't behave that way.

Pleased to see that Jimp the Chimp hasn't changed over the years....


-- 
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
 territory."
                                      --G. Behn

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#55734

FromJeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com>
Date2016-04-07 06:24 -0400
Message-ID<MPG.316fff733ac66c419899a8@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#55698
In article <nq1etc-hec.ln1@mail.specsol.com>, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com 
says...
> > Colonies with insufficient support from 'back home' tended to
> > disappear.  You talk like all colonization attempts are easily
> > successful.  There are enough failed colonies to prove that to be
> > bullshit.
> 
> I never said anything like that.
> 
> However, support from 'back home' wasn't oxygen, food, water, and
> repair parts for high tech equipment.

Water is available on both the moon and Mars at at least one of the 
poles on each.  Oxygen is also available on both the moon and Mars; it 
just needs to be extracted.  Food can therefore be grown.

Repair parts for high tech equipment is exactly the sort of thing that 
Fred is talking about when he says "support".  For early earth colonies, 
things which are difficult to manufacture locally, like anything made of 
metal, had to be shipped in, unless there was a readily available source 
of metal at the colony and all of the tools to smelt and then process 
and work with it.

> For the most part it was luxury items such as good china before such
> manufacturing could be established in the colonies.
> 
> In return the colonies, depending on where they were, sent back things
> like spices, precious metals, furs, and timber.
> 

Agreed that this pattern would often continue with even well established 
colonies.  The colony would mostly ship back raw materials, or goods 
easily manufactured locally, and the "old world" would send the colony 
finished "hard" goods. 

> There is nothing off the Earth so valuable it would be worth the
> shipping cost in fuel to send it back to Earth.

Depends.  If the fuel is largely made locally (on the moon or Mars), the 
cost is local too.  It may be more difficult to extract, but the supply 
(the entire planet or moon) versus demand (a fledgling colony) would be 
quite favorable.
 
> >>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century
> >>technology to survive.
> >>
> > 
> > Bullshit.  Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the
> > skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best
> > technology available at the time.
>  
> And that technology, except for a very few things like muskets, dates
> back to at least the 10th Century.

Most certainly, but even that early tech (e.g. metal knives, axes, and 
etc) would be quite difficult to manufacture at many early colonies 
which may lack readily available raw materials (e.g. iron ore right on 
the surface).
 
> And, BTW, the indigious populations where most colonies where established
> were surviving just fine on Stone Age technology long before the Europeans
> appeared.
 
"Just fine" is a stretch, depending on the technological level of the 
indigenous populations.  (Primitive) technologies like farming and 
domestication and selective breeding of animals *greatly* increased the 
potential population density of even indigenous populations.  

Jeff
-- 
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.  
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends, 
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55737

FromWilliam Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com>
Date2016-04-07 04:54 -0700
Message-ID<0e98c3b2-3eb8-466b-87f8-c2f09576b4fb@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#55734
On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 10:24:35 PM UTC+12, Jeff Findley wrote:
> In article <nq1etc-hec.ln1@mail.specsol.com>, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com 
> says...
> > > Colonies with insufficient support from 'back home' tended to
> > > disappear.  You talk like all colonization attempts are easily
> > > successful.  There are enough failed colonies to prove that to be
> > > bullshit.
> > 
> > I never said anything like that.
> > 
> > However, support from 'back home' wasn't oxygen, food, water, and
> > repair parts for high tech equipment.
> 
> Water is available on both the moon and Mars at at least one of the 
> poles on each.  Oxygen is also available on both the moon and Mars; it 
> just needs to be extracted.  Food can therefore be grown.
> 
> Repair parts for high tech equipment is exactly the sort of thing that 
> Fred is talking about when he says "support".  For early earth colonies, 
> things which are difficult to manufacture locally, like anything made of 
> metal, had to be shipped in, unless there was a readily available source 
> of metal at the colony and all of the tools to smelt and then process 
> and work with it.
> 
> > For the most part it was luxury items such as good china before such
> > manufacturing could be established in the colonies.
> > 
> > In return the colonies, depending on where they were, sent back things
> > like spices, precious metals, furs, and timber.
> > 
> 
> Agreed that this pattern would often continue with even well established 
> colonies.  The colony would mostly ship back raw materials, or goods 
> easily manufactured locally, and the "old world" would send the colony 
> finished "hard" goods. 
> 
> > There is nothing off the Earth so valuable it would be worth the
> > shipping cost in fuel to send it back to Earth.
> 
> Depends.  If the fuel is largely made locally (on the moon or Mars), the 
> cost is local too.  It may be more difficult to extract, but the supply 
> (the entire planet or moon) versus demand (a fledgling colony) would be 
> quite favorable.
>  
> > >>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century
> > >>technology to survive.
> > >>
> > > 
> > > Bullshit.  Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the
> > > skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best
> > > technology available at the time.
> >  
> > And that technology, except for a very few things like muskets, dates
> > back to at least the 10th Century.
> 
> Most certainly, but even that early tech (e.g. metal knives, axes, and 
> etc) would be quite difficult to manufacture at many early colonies 
> which may lack readily available raw materials (e.g. iron ore right on 
> the surface).
>  
> > And, BTW, the indigious populations where most colonies where established
> > were surviving just fine on Stone Age technology long before the Europeans
> > appeared.
>  
> "Just fine" is a stretch, depending on the technological level of the 
> indigenous populations.  (Primitive) technologies like farming and 
> domestication and selective breeding of animals *greatly* increased the 
> potential population density of even indigenous populations.  
> 
> Jeff
> -- 
> All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.  
> These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends, 
> employer, or any organization that I am a member of.

With the discovery of ice caps on Mercury, the feeling among many planetary scientists is that water is common in the solar system, and in fact common in all star systems.  Many now feel that the hydrogen coming out of the sun finds its way to the planets and other objects that orbit the sun, and interact with silicates and other oxides, to form water.  

http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~ryden/ast825/ch11.pdf

20.3x10^-15 litres/sec/m2.   This 640 cc per year per square kilometer.  

Taking an asteroid and moving it to Earth Mars Lagrange Point One, and making a faceted mirror that focuses light to equal that of Earth, requires a mirror 6,612 miles across.  Putting a solar powered magnetic ring of that size at that point, focuses protons onto the Martian surface, producing 592 million litres of water on the martian surface each (Earth) year.  Of course, colliding with Martian CO2 produces water as well as oil and carbon deposits.  

This all with fairly near term technology. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55739

FromWilliam Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com>
Date2016-04-07 05:53 -0700
Message-ID<b60b8bc3-2434-478e-8e27-f5236117bae6@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#55734
On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 10:24:35 PM UTC+12, Jeff Findley wrote:
> In article <nq1etc-hec.ln1@mail.specsol.com>, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com 
> says...
> > > Colonies with insufficient support from 'back home' tended to
> > > disappear.  You talk like all colonization attempts are easily
> > > successful.  There are enough failed colonies to prove that to be
> > > bullshit.
> > 
> > I never said anything like that.
> > 
> > However, support from 'back home' wasn't oxygen, food, water, and
> > repair parts for high tech equipment.
> 
> Water is available on both the moon and Mars at at least one of the 
> poles on each.  Oxygen is also available on both the moon and Mars; it 
> just needs to be extracted.  Food can therefore be grown.
> 
> Repair parts for high tech equipment is exactly the sort of thing that 
> Fred is talking about when he says "support".  For early earth colonies, 
> things which are difficult to manufacture locally, like anything made of 
> metal, had to be shipped in, unless there was a readily available source 
> of metal at the colony and all of the tools to smelt and then process 
> and work with it.
> 
> > For the most part it was luxury items such as good china before such
> > manufacturing could be established in the colonies.
> > 
> > In return the colonies, depending on where they were, sent back things
> > like spices, precious metals, furs, and timber.
> > 
> 
> Agreed that this pattern would often continue with even well established 
> colonies.  The colony would mostly ship back raw materials, or goods 
> easily manufactured locally, and the "old world" would send the colony 
> finished "hard" goods. 
> 
> > There is nothing off the Earth so valuable it would be worth the
> > shipping cost in fuel to send it back to Earth.
> 
> Depends.  If the fuel is largely made locally (on the moon or Mars), the 
> cost is local too.  It may be more difficult to extract, but the supply 
> (the entire planet or moon) versus demand (a fledgling colony) would be 
> quite favorable.
>  
> > >>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century
> > >>technology to survive.
> > >>
> > > 
> > > Bullshit.  Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the
> > > skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best
> > > technology available at the time.
> >  
> > And that technology, except for a very few things like muskets, dates
> > back to at least the 10th Century.
> 
> Most certainly, but even that early tech (e.g. metal knives, axes, and 
> etc) would be quite difficult to manufacture at many early colonies 
> which may lack readily available raw materials (e.g. iron ore right on 
> the surface).
>  
> > And, BTW, the indigious populations where most colonies where established
> > were surviving just fine on Stone Age technology long before the Europeans
> > appeared.
>  
> "Just fine" is a stretch, depending on the technological level of the 
> indigenous populations.  (Primitive) technologies like farming and 
> domestication and selective breeding of animals *greatly* increased the 
> potential population density of even indigenous populations.  
> 
> Jeff
> -- 
> All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.  
> These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends, 
> employer, or any organization that I am a member of.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19780044024
http://www.johnslewis.com/2011/01/demandite-and-resources-in-space.html

Modern methods of production will make use of demandite to make anything desired.  This has long been known.

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=iKnaLbRtQasC&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=demandite&source=bl&ots=qwP5tMw4SZ&sig=tGnkoczMosLKU1qqvwZBCA29zgE&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=demandite&f=false

The issue is the biosphere.  The biosphere cannot support - according to conventional wisdom - a large number of people living at a high standard.  Self replicating machines transforming the Earth into a factory for billions of high tech consumers cannot be sustained.  Self replicating machinery operating automatically throughout the asteroid belt and inner solar system, can transform worlds and make large volumes of high quality products available on Earth.

Here is what we consume in the advanced industrial world;

Fuel.........	0.42	3242.82
Building....	0.40	3088.40
Agriculture	 0.10 	    772.10
Metals......	0.06	   463.26
Others......	 0.02	    154.42

Total.........	 1.00	   7721.00

So, the average industrial consumer uses 7.72 metric tons of stuff each year.  3.24 tons of that is fuel in the form of oil, natural gas and coal.  3.09 tons of stuff is in the form of building materials.  Glass, stone, gravel, concrete, and so forth.    We don't need the first with beamed energy from space.  We don't need to bring stones and sand to Earth.  We can use materials here without too much trouble.  We can even reycle the materials we want to clean up.

So, the balance of imports, is metals and agriculture products, including clothing and medicines, construction timber, paper, as well as plastics and electronics.  

This adds up to no more than 1.4 metric tons moved from the asteroids to Earth, prior to doing the long term solution of moving people from the Earth to the asteroids.  Importing goods requires that we slow products down by a small amount, so they fall to Earth, to be captured at Earth and distributed and consumed.  

So, during the shipping season from Ceres say;

Ceres:  2.7675 AU - semimajor axis
           17.905 km/sec - average orbital speed
            0.510 km/sec - escape velocity

Earth:  1.0000 AU - semimajor axis
           29.782 km/sec - average orbital velocity
           11.186 km/sec - escape velocity

So, the Vis-Viva equation gives you the velocity at each point in an orbit.  So a Hohmann transfer orbit that connects Earth with Ceres is 
     
  ( 2.7675 + 1.0000 ) / 2 = 1.88375

    V = sqrt( 2/r - 1/a )

So, at r=2.7675 and a= 1.88375  we have

   V = sqrt( 2/2.7675 - 1/1.88375) = 0.43797  times earth's orbital velocity

   0.43797 * 29.782 = 13.044 km/sec  at Ceres.  So,

    17.905 - 13.044 = 4.861 km/sec delta vee to fall from Ceres orbit to Earth orbit around the Sun.

Now the escape velocity of Ceres is 0.510 km/sec.  So, the speed at which an object must be projected from Ceres to Earth is;

   sqrt( 0.510^2 + 4.861^2) = 4.888 km/sec.  

Now, to project 1.4 metric tons from Ceres to Earth requires that it be accelerated to this speed.  If done with a solar powered photonic thruster, this will use;

      1/2 * 1400 kg * 4.888^2 = 16.722 GJ per year.  

This is 529.9 Watts continuous per person at Ceres, with 80% overall efficiency, this requires 3.71 sq meters of solar collector at Ceres per person!  

Adding up across all asteroids for 7.28 billion person this is a total of 3.86 trillion watts!  It takes 15.5 months to get to Earth.  

To break down 1,400 kg into plasma and reassemble it at the atomic level, concentrating the needed atoms, requires 19.6 GJ per year.  This is a little more energy requiring a little larger collector.

On average, 1.16 billion tons enter Earth's atmosphere every hour in billions of payloads and contain products that fly directly to the person's needing the material.  The 15.5 month supply chain can be considered a warehouse, and the last three days orders are placed and final course corrections are made to bring the product to the person.  Utility fog on Earth recycles the wastes including the packaging.  

So, we won't be going to Mars living under a dome and growing minks to export fur back to Earth.  We will send first;

  (1) a network of automatic communications satellites to capture the telecom market,
  (2) a network of automatic power satellites to capture the energy market,
  (3) a network of self replicating automatic manufacturing satellites to capture the manufacturing market,

and finally,

  (4) manufacture residential colonies in the asteroid belt and send people to these colonies reducing human numbers to 500 million in five years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZNzz4SaTYk 

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#55744

Fromjimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Date2016-04-07 19:03 +0000
Message-ID<tgnitc-mir.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
In reply to#55734
In sci.physics Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> wrote:
> In article <nq1etc-hec.ln1@mail.specsol.com>, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com 
> says...
>> > Colonies with insufficient support from 'back home' tended to
>> > disappear.  You talk like all colonization attempts are easily
>> > successful.  There are enough failed colonies to prove that to be
>> > bullshit.
>> 
>> I never said anything like that.
>> 
>> However, support from 'back home' wasn't oxygen, food, water, and
>> repair parts for high tech equipment.
> 
> Water is available on both the moon and Mars at at least one of the 
> poles on each.  Oxygen is also available on both the moon and Mars; it 
> just needs to be extracted.  Food can therefore be grown.

Sure, all this is theoretically posible at a horrendous cost that no
one will ever want to finance.

> Repair parts for high tech equipment is exactly the sort of thing that 
> Fred is talking about when he says "support".  For early earth colonies, 
> things which are difficult to manufacture locally, like anything made of 
> metal, had to be shipped in, unless there was a readily available source 
> of metal at the colony and all of the tools to smelt and then process 
> and work with it.

Repair parts take more than metal. Concider all the bits and pieces
needed to make something as simple as a relay to control a blower
motor. You need several different kinds of metal and alloys as well
as wire and insulators.

>> For the most part it was luxury items such as good china before such
>> manufacturing could be established in the colonies.
>> 
>> In return the colonies, depending on where they were, sent back things
>> like spices, precious metals, furs, and timber.
>> 
> 
> Agreed that this pattern would often continue with even well established 
> colonies.  The colony would mostly ship back raw materials, or goods 
> easily manufactured locally, and the "old world" would send the colony 
> finished "hard" goods. 
> 
>> There is nothing off the Earth so valuable it would be worth the
>> shipping cost in fuel to send it back to Earth.
> 
> Depends.  If the fuel is largely made locally (on the moon or Mars), the 
> cost is local too.  It may be more difficult to extract, but the supply 
> (the entire planet or moon) versus demand (a fledgling colony) would be 
> quite favorable.

Cost is cost no matter where it comes from and again, there is nothing
off the Earth so valuable it would be worth the shipping cost.

>> >>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century
>> >>technology to survive.
>> >>
>> > 
>> > Bullshit.  Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the
>> > skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best
>> > technology available at the time.
>>  
>> And that technology, except for a very few things like muskets, dates
>> back to at least the 10th Century.
> 
> Most certainly, but even that early tech (e.g. metal knives, axes, and 
> etc) would be quite difficult to manufacture at many early colonies 
> which may lack readily available raw materials (e.g. iron ore right on 
> the surface).

Totally misses the point; the colonies could buy such things until
local production was establishe with things like timber, fur, and
spices.

>> And, BTW, the indigious populations where most colonies where established
>> were surviving just fine on Stone Age technology long before the Europeans
>> appeared.
>  
> "Just fine" is a stretch, depending on the technological level of the 
> indigenous populations.  (Primitive) technologies like farming and 
> domestication and selective breeding of animals *greatly* increased the 
> potential population density of even indigenous populations.  

Point missed yet again. The indigenous populations were able to live,
in some cases for thousands of years, without any resupply from Europe.


-- 
Jim Pennino

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#55766

FromWilliam Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com>
Date2016-04-07 16:47 -0700
Message-ID<d979c9f9-2c4b-40fa-95a5-bd618a18598f@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#55744
On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 7:16:04 AM UTC+12, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> In sci.physics Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> wrote:
> > In article <nq1etc-hec.ln1@mail.specsol.com>, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com 
> > says...
> >> > Colonies with insufficient support from 'back home' tended to
> >> > disappear.  You talk like all colonization attempts are easily
> >> > successful.  There are enough failed colonies to prove that to be
> >> > bullshit.
> >> 
> >> I never said anything like that.
> >> 
> >> However, support from 'back home' wasn't oxygen, food, water, and
> >> repair parts for high tech equipment.
> > 
> > Water is available on both the moon and Mars at at least one of the 
> > poles on each.  Oxygen is also available on both the moon and Mars; it 
> > just needs to be extracted.  Food can therefore be grown.
> 
> Sure, all this is theoretically posible 

Its possible in practice as well.

> at a horrendous cost that no
> one will ever want to finance.

Nonsense.  You have no understandng of what it required using current best practices.  If you did you would see just how simple it all is.

> > Repair parts for high tech equipment is exactly the sort of thing that 
> > Fred is talking about when he says "support".  For early earth colonies, 
> > things which are difficult to manufacture locally, like anything made of 
> > metal, had to be shipped in, unless there was a readily available source 
> > of metal at the colony and all of the tools to smelt and then process 
> > and work with it.
> 
> Repair parts take more than metal. 

True.

> Concider 

Consider you mean.

> all the bits and pieces
> needed to make something as simple as a relay to control a blower
> motor. 

Yes, people are considering that and making machines that make machines - Self replicating machine systems are a solved problem.  Have been since 2005.  Now, the effort is to figure out how to make those machines most efficient.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M1zNIVGrjM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVYz7g-qLjs

You need several different kinds of metal and alloys as well
> as wire and insulators.

Yes you do.  Which is easily achieved from found materials to replicate itself.

> 
> >> For the most part it was luxury items such as good china before such
> >> manufacturing could be established in the colonies.
> >> 
> >> In return the colonies, depending on where they were, sent back things
> >> like spices, precious metals, furs, and timber.
> >> 
> > 
> > Agreed that this pattern would often continue with even well established 
> > colonies.  The colony would mostly ship back raw materials, or goods 
> > easily manufactured locally, and the "old world" would send the colony 
> > finished "hard" goods. 
> > 
> >> There is nothing off the Earth so valuable it would be worth the
> >> shipping cost in fuel to send it back to Earth.
> > 
> > Depends.  If the fuel is largely made locally (on the moon or Mars), the 
> > cost is local too.  It may be more difficult to extract, but the supply 
> > (the entire planet or moon) versus demand (a fledgling colony) would be 
> > quite favorable.
> 
> Cost is cost no matter where it comes from and again, there is nothing
> off the Earth so valuable it would be worth the shipping cost.

Cost is a measure of human time and attention in a free and open market.  In rigged markets Cost is also artificially created (see artificial scarcity) to maintain control of large populations and extrac wealth from them.

Most costs on Earth today derive from artificial scarcities which are blamed on nature or on human nature.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU07AdnZiSw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVgSF8CzSy4

> >> >>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century
> >> >>technology to survive.
> >> >>
> >> > 
> >> > Bullshit.  Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the
> >> > skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best
> >> > technology available at the time.
> >>  
> >> And that technology, except for a very few things like muskets, dates
> >> back to at least the 10th Century.
> > 
> > Most certainly, but even that early tech (e.g. metal knives, axes, and 
> > etc) would be quite difficult to manufacture at many early colonies 
> > which may lack readily available raw materials (e.g. iron ore right on 
> > the surface).
> 
> Totally misses the point; the colonies could buy such things until
> local production was establishe with things like timber, fur, and
> spices.

Self replicating machinery that is programmable can receive new instructions from innovators anywhere.  This will be the nature of the trade.  So, instead of Annie Mae going to town to get a bit of gingham and a new pattern for a dress, Anna Mars will receive the open source code for a new molecule to put into her new spacesuit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQXKgG7tsII

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRwnWMYpAi8

> 
> >> And, BTW, the indigious populations where most colonies where established
> >> were surviving just fine on Stone Age technology long before the Europeans
> >> appeared.
> >  
> > "Just fine" is a stretch, depending on the technological level of the 
> > indigenous populations.  (Primitive) technologies like farming and 
> > domestication and selective breeding of animals *greatly* increased the 
> > potential population density of even indigenous populations.  
> 
> Point missed yet again. The indigenous populations were able to live,
> in some cases for thousands of years, without any resupply from Europe.

It will be the same for Martian and Asteroid indigenous populations once they're established with self-replicating machine systems.
 
> 
> -- 
> Jim Pennino

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#55700

FromGreg Goss <gossg@gossg.org>
Date2016-04-05 19:53 -0600
Message-ID<dmj8haFnrsnU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#55693
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century
>technology to survive.

Try reading "Collapse" some time.  Greenland, f'rex.  A fair number of
the Pacific islands.
-- 
We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55703

Fromjimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Date2016-04-06 03:42 +0000
Message-ID<q5detc-5hd.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
In reply to#55700
In sci.physics Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> wrote:
> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> 
>>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century
>>technology to survive.
> 
> Try reading "Collapse" some time.  Greenland, f'rex.  A fair number of
> the Pacific islands.

Greenland has been populated to varying degrees for over 4,000 years.

All but the smallest Pacific islands were populated by people with Stone
Age technology.


-- 
Jim Pennino

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55704

FromGreg Goss <gossg@gossg.org>
Date2016-04-05 23:06 -0600
Message-ID<dmjjq0Fqd26U1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#55703
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

>In sci.physics Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>> 
>>>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century
>>>technology to survive.
>> 
>> Try reading "Collapse" some time.  Greenland, f'rex.  A fair number of
>> the Pacific islands.
>
>Greenland has been populated to varying degrees for over 4,000 years.

But the Viking colony failed.

>All but the smallest Pacific islands were populated by people with Stone
>Age technology.

And a fair number of those colonies failed.
-- 
We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

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#55709

Fromjimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Date2016-04-06 18:05 +0000
Message-ID<dnvftc-moi.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
In reply to#55704
In sci.physics Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> wrote:
> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> 
>>In sci.physics Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> wrote:
>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>> 
>>>>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century
>>>>technology to survive.
>>> 
>>> Try reading "Collapse" some time.  Greenland, f'rex.  A fair number of
>>> the Pacific islands.
>>
>>Greenland has been populated to varying degrees for over 4,000 years.
> 
> But the Viking colony failed.

Which one over the over 4,000 years of habitation?

>>All but the smallest Pacific islands were populated by people with Stone
>>Age technology.
> 
> And a fair number of those colonies failed.

No colony on Earth ever failed for lack of oxygen.

Very few failed for lack of water.

A fair number in less warm climates failed for lack of storing food for
the winter.

A few failed due to hostile indigenous people.

All this is irrelevant.

Attempting to compare any colony on the Earth to a colony off the Earth
is starry eyed nonsense.


-- 
Jim Pennino

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#55712

FromFred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com>
Date2016-04-06 12:34 -0700
Message-ID<jnnagbhj5de3chapk06jgrn50te0tlseu9@4ax.com>
In reply to#55709
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

>
>No colony on Earth ever failed for lack of oxygen.
>
>Very few failed for lack of water.
>
>A fair number in less warm climates failed for lack of storing food for
>the winter.
>
>A few failed due to hostile indigenous people.
>

So now you care what you die from?  We've found water both on the Moon
and on Mars.  Oxygen isn't that difficult a problem, either, given an
oven to bake it out of rocks.

>
>All this is irrelevant.
>
>Attempting to compare any colony on the Earth to a colony off the Earth
>is starry eyed nonsense.
>

Colonies always need supply and support initially.  Colonies off the
Earth will be no different.


-- 
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
 territory."
                                      --G. Behn

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#55747

FromThomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de>
Date2016-04-07 19:18 +0000
Message-ID<ne6bpd$k90$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>
In reply to#55712
Fred J  McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:

> Colonies always need supply and support initially.  Colonies off the
> Earth will be no different.

The main problem I see for space coloies is the complexity of the
technology that is needed for survival, if spare parts cannot be
imported.

Take a simple O-ring used as a seal as as an example.

Currently, this is made from an elastomer.  If it needs to
withstand oil, you will probably need NBR, a rubber made from
1-3-Butadiene and Acrylonitrile.

So, you need 1-3-Butadiene.

You can get that from a C4 stream coming from a steam cracker, which
needs a hydrocarbon feedstock and is an enormously complex chemical
plant, requiring catalysts and dozens of distillation columns.
To separate it from the other C4 products, you usually use a sulfuric
acid extraction.  A steam cracker also produces dozens of other
products, which you will have to dispose of (wasteful) or 
use (for what?)

Hmm... maybe not that, dehydrogenation of n-Butane may be better.
Dehydrogenation catalyst needed, typically Platinum.  To get
n-Butane, you need a steam cracker.

Or maybe dehydrogenate Ethanol (a catalytic reaction, of course).

OK, let's assume we have Butadiene.  Next, we need acrylonitrile,
which is made from Propylene and Ammonia.

Propylene you get from that steam cracker (see above).  Ammonia
manufacture is a high-pressure process requiring nitrogen and
hydrogen.  Nitrogen on the Moon will be hard to get, on Mars
it could be done.

Because NBR is made by emulsion polymerization, you need emulsifiers
(and water).  Emulsifiers are basically soap, so please set up
your soap factory somewhere.

Now you've got the basic polymer, please also set up your plants for
making all the additives which make it into a usable rubber.

And set up the plants for making the catalysts that the different
processes above require.

You can't really use the latex produced in the polymerizaion, so
please use your ready-made plant for precipitation and washing of
the latex and drying (which could involve both a screw and a dryer).
Think of a way to deal with the huge amount of waste water this
will generate, and don't forget the Polyethylene film to wrap
it in.

Now you've got your rubber bale, but it is not yet an O-Ring.
You need to compound and vulcanize it.

Just grabbing a random recipe from the net, please also have
ready your Zinc Oxide, Magnesium oxide, Stearic acid, Styrenated
Phenol, Benzothiazol Disulfide (an accelerator), Tetramethyl
Thiuram Disulfide (another accelerator), Carbon Black, Sulfur and
Dioctyl phtalate.  Also put some old motor oil in, and Add a few
anti-aging and anti-oxydizing chemicals while you're at it.

And this is just to make one simple everyday part that you
could order for a few cents on Earth.

So, is there a way around this?  You can try to restrict yourself
to the materials that you really, really need.  This will mean
that your solutions will be much worse than what you could get on
Earth by just ordering the products you needed.  I am not sure
that this will be easy given the harshness of your environment,
where your solutions should be good if you want to survive.

So, a self-sufficient space colony would have to be quite
large to support something like our technological base.

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#55754

FromFred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com>
Date2016-04-07 13:04 -0700
Message-ID<p4fdgbd35tfptkdmt71p337b7klalq3khc@4ax.com>
In reply to#55747
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:

>Fred J  McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>
>> Colonies always need supply and support initially.  Colonies off the
>> Earth will be no different.
>
>The main problem I see for space coloies is the complexity of the
>technology that is needed for survival, if spare parts cannot be
>imported.
>

Baby steps, Tom.  Baby steps.

>
>Take a simple O-ring used as a seal as as an example.
>
>Currently, this is made from an elastomer.  If it needs to
>withstand oil, you will probably need NBR, a rubber made from
>1-3-Butadiene and Acrylonitrile.
>
>So, you need 1-3-Butadiene.
>

<snip petrochemical description>

Or instead of cracking down complex hydrocarbons you don't have, you
build up what you need out of the pieces.  Please read up on in situ
resource utilization.


-- 
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable 
 man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, 
 all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
                                      --George Bernard Shaw

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#55759

FromThomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de>
Date2016-04-07 21:07 +0000
Message-ID<ne6i6a$nua$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>
In reply to#55754
Fred J  McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>
>>Take a simple O-ring used as a seal as as an example.
>>
>>Currently, this is made from an elastomer.  If it needs to
>>withstand oil, you will probably need NBR, a rubber made from
>>1-3-Butadiene and Acrylonitrile.
>>
>>So, you need 1-3-Butadiene.

><snip petrochemical description>
>
> Or instead of cracking down complex hydrocarbons you don't have, you
> build up what you need out of the pieces.  Please read up on in situ
> resource utilization.

What in situ resources could I use on the Moon (or Mars) to make an
O-ring capable of withstanding oil?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55773

FromFred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com>
Date2016-04-08 00:03 -0700
Message-ID<urlegb1dhlhgu1e19cl6a17cvlro16bhr6@4ax.com>
In reply to#55759
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:

>Fred J  McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>
>>>Take a simple O-ring used as a seal as as an example.
>>>
>>>Currently, this is made from an elastomer.  If it needs to
>>>withstand oil, you will probably need NBR, a rubber made from
>>>1-3-Butadiene and Acrylonitrile.
>>>
>>>So, you need 1-3-Butadiene.
>
>><snip petrochemical description>
>>
>> Or instead of cracking down complex hydrocarbons you don't have, you
>> build up what you need out of the pieces.  Please read up on in situ
>> resource utilization.
>
>What in situ resources could I use on the Moon (or Mars) to make an
>O-ring capable of withstanding oil?
>

Chemistry is chemistry.  Please go follow the link on in situ organic
chemicals I gave the Chimp.


-- 
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
 territory."
                                      --G. Behn

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