Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > sci.space.policy > #54831 > unrolled thread

Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO.

Back to article view | Back to sci.space.policy

Contents

  Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO. "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2015-11-25 13:15 -0500
    Re: Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-25 23:56 +0000
      Re: Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO. "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2015-11-25 22:45 -0500
        Re: Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO. Lester Thorpe <lt11@thorpe.info> - 2015-11-26 04:47 +0000
      Re: Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO. "Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <mooregr@deletethisgreenms.com> - 2015-11-25 23:53 -0500
        Re: Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 06:25 +0000
      Re: Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2015-11-26 11:46 -0500
        Re: Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 20:13 +0000
          Re: Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2015-11-29 23:03 -0700
    Re: Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO. Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2015-11-26 11:44 -0500
    Re: Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO. Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2015-11-29 22:53 -0700

#54831 — Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO.

Elon Musk Verified account ‏@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the 
upper stage and a heavy satellite.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/669132749500887040

Thank you very much, Mr. Musk.

It would be a major advance if SpaceX would at least do a test launch of a 
F9 first stage only to confirm what the payload could be for it as an SSTO. 
Perhaps someone at DARPA could encourage them to do such a test? That would 
remove a major roadblock to SSTO's being investigated - the mental block 
that they can not be done.

For an SSTO altitude compensation is important to maximize performance. I 
was surprised in fact that when I did the calculation I found that using 
altitude compensation an SSTO can be more cost effective than a two stage 
rocket. That is, the price per kilo is lower for the SSTO with altitude 
compensation than it is for a TSTO(!)

This is a radical suggestion I know. But for a long time people have been 
saying that SSTO's couldn't even be done. Now Musk has confirmed that the F9 
first stage can do SSTO, without even trying to make it so. The calculation 
that they can in fact even be more cost effective than a multistage, IF you 
use altitude compensation, isn't even particularly hard:

The Coming SSTO's: Falcon 9 v1.1 first stage as SSTO, Page 2.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-coming-sstos-falcon-9-v11-first.html


   Bob Clark

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A mission to Europa could result in the most important scientific advance in 
human history, dwarfing even the Apollo missions, to discover life on 
another world. By commercial space, launch and spacecraft costs can be 
slashed by a factor of 10 or more. This would be a cost that could be 
financed privately. And at costs this low it can even be done at a profit:

Low cost Europa lander missions.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2015/02/low-cost-europa-lander-missions.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#54832

In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
> 
> Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
> The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the 
> upper stage and a heavy satellite.

That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.


-- 
Jim Pennino

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#54833

The Elon tweet suggests the payload would be less, not zero. More important 
though the payload can be significantly increased by using known methods of 
altitude compensation.

  Bob Clark


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A mission to Europa could result in the most important scientific advance in 
human history, dwarfing even the Apollo missions, to discover life on 
another world. By commercial space, launch and spacecraft costs can be 
slashed by a factor of 10 or more. This would be a cost that could be 
financed privately. And at costs this low it can even be done at a profit:

Low cost Europa lander missions.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2015/02/low-cost-europa-lander-missions.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wrote in message news:8euhic-5co.ln1@mail.specsol.com...

In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>
> Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
> The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the
> upper stage and a heavy satellite.

That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.


-- 
Jim Pennino

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#54834

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 22:45:20 -0500, Robert Clark wrote:

> 
> known methods of altitude compensation.
> 

You mention "altitude compensation."

Is altitude compensation a major reason for using multi-stage vehicles
to achieve orbit?  That is, multi-stages would allow different engines
for different altitudes.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#54835

wrote in message news:8euhic-5co.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
>
>In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
>> The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the
>> upper stage and a heavy satellite.
>
>That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
>to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.
>
>

It's more like Lindbergh's flight across the Atlantic; proof of concept.


-- 
Greg D. Moore                   http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#54836

In sci.physics "Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <mooregr@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote:
> wrote in message news:8euhic-5co.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
>>
>>In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
>>> The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the
>>> upper stage and a heavy satellite.
>>
>>That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
>>to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.
>>
>>
> 
> It's more like Lindbergh's flight across the Atlantic; proof of concept.
 
Not really.

What a given engine will achieve is calculable. 

-- 
Jim Pennino

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#54838

In article <8euhic-5co.ln1@mail.specsol.com>, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com 
says...
> 
> In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
> > The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the 
> > upper stage and a heavy satellite.
> 
> That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
> to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.

It would be useful only in that it would finally prove that SSTO is 
possible.  Right now, it's only a theoretical possibility.  

In my opinion, it would be a very expensive stunt since Falcon 9's first 
stage is not designed for reentry from orbital velocities.  

Jeff
-- 
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#54839

In sci.physics Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> wrote:
> In article <8euhic-5co.ln1@mail.specsol.com>, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com 
> says...
>> 
>> In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> > Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
>> > The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the 
>> > upper stage and a heavy satellite.
>> 
>> That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
>> to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.
> 
> It would be useful only in that it would finally prove that SSTO is 
> possible.  Right now, it's only a theoretical possibility.  

It is much more than a theoretical possibility, but it is not currently
an economic possibility.

> In my opinion, it would be a very expensive stunt since Falcon 9's first 
> stage is not designed for reentry from orbital velocities.  

A butt load of micro-satellites might make it usefull for something.

> 
> Jeff

-- 
Jim Pennino

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#54852

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

>>
>> In my opinion, it would be a very expensive stunt since Falcon 9's first 
>> stage is not designed for reentry from orbital velocities.  
>
>A butt load of micro-satellites might make it usefull for something.
>

But that's a very expensive way to launch them.  Cheaper to put them
all on a regular Falcon 9 as extra cargo and let them ride 'free'. The
launch is actually cheaper overall than the 'SSTO' launch of just the
microsats, since you're not throwing away all those engines in the
first stage (assuming they get landing working).

-- 
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable 
 man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, 
 all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
                                      --George Bernard Shaw

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#54837

In article <n34tnh$bo1$2@dont-email.me>, 
rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com says...
> 
> Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
> The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the 
> upper stage and a heavy satellite.
> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/669132749500887040
> 
> Thank you very much, Mr. Musk.
> 
> It would be a major advance if SpaceX would at least do a test launch of a 
> F9 first stage only to confirm what the payload could be for it as an SSTO. 
> Perhaps someone at DARPA could encourage them to do such a test? That would 
> remove a major roadblock to SSTO's being investigated - the mental block 
> that they can not be done.
> 
> For an SSTO altitude compensation is important to maximize performance. I 
> was surprised in fact that when I did the calculation I found that using 
> altitude compensation an SSTO can be more cost effective than a two stage 
> rocket. That is, the price per kilo is lower for the SSTO with altitude 
> compensation than it is for a TSTO(!)
> 
> This is a radical suggestion I know. But for a long time people have been 
> saying that SSTO's couldn't even be done. Now Musk has confirmed that the F9 
> first stage can do SSTO, without even trying to make it so. The calculation 
> that they can in fact even be more cost effective than a multistage, IF you 
> use altitude compensation, isn't even particularly hard:
> 
> The Coming SSTO's: Falcon 9 v1.1 first stage as SSTO, Page 2.
> http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-coming-sstos-falcon-9-v11-first.html

Lots of stages in the past supposedly had SSTO performance, but none has 
ever flown as an SSTO.  Until a Falcon 9 Full Thrust first stages flies 
as an SSTO, this is all theoretical.

I doubt SpaceX would ever fly it as an SSTO.  Reentering from orbital 
velocity surely cause the stage to break up and be lost.  It would be a 
very expensive stunt.  

Jeff
-- 
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#54851

"Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> wrote:

>
>Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
>The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the 
>upper stage and a heavy satellite.
>https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/669132749500887040
>
>Thank you very much, Mr. Musk.
>
>It would be a major advance if SpaceX would at least do a test launch of a 
>F9 first stage only to confirm what the payload could be for it as an SSTO. 
>Perhaps someone at DARPA could encourage them to do such a test? That would 
>remove a major roadblock to SSTO's being investigated - the mental block 
>that they can not be done.
>

I'd rather have them get landing that first stage working instead.  If
you're doing SSTO you probably lose the first stage because you're
using that 10% reserve fuel to get to orbit rather than land the
booster.  That means that a two stage Falcon 9 is probably cheaper to
use than a SSTO Falcon 9.


-- 
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable 
 man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, 
 all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
                                      --George Bernard Shaw

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

Back to top | Article view | sci.space.policy

csiph-web