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Groups > sci.space.policy > #55633 > unrolled thread
| Started by | dumpster4@hotmail.com |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-03-25 10:02 -0700 |
| Last post | 2016-04-11 19:09 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 457 — 20 participants |
Back to article view | Back to sci.space.policy
The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon dumpster4@hotmail.com - 2016-03-25 10:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-25 18:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon bob haller <hallerb@aol.com> - 2016-03-26 11:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-26 16:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon dumpster4@hotmail.com - 2016-03-26 23:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 00:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 16:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2016-03-27 22:26 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 19:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-03 12:52 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-03 17:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-03 15:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-03 18:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-03 18:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 01:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-04 15:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-04 18:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 12:58 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon bob haller <hallerb@aol.com> - 2016-04-04 20:13 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 23:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 20:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jack Ryan <mixmaster@remailer.cpunk.us> - 2016-04-05 03:50 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-05 18:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 16:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-05 18:47 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 00:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-04-07 06:10 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 18:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 16:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-08 14:23 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 09:57 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 09:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 10:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 12:53 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 19:38 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 00:27 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 17:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 00:28 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-05 22:14 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 03:38 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:58 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 00:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-04-07 06:24 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 04:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 05:53 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:03 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 16:47 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 19:53 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 03:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 23:06 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-07 19:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 13:04 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-07 21:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 00:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 17:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 21:47 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-09 13:55 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 10:08 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 15:19 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 22:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 04:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 01:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 12:53 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 12:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 14:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 08:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 16:40 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 15:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-11 19:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 20:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:04 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 22:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 21:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 05:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 00:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 13:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 21:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 02:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 21:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 13:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 15:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 04:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 22:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:04 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:21 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 22:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 01:33 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 20:44 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-17 05:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 23:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 12:54 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon dumpster4@hotmail.com - 2016-04-14 08:58 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 13:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 14:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 23:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:10 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:40 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:11 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-09 00:01 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 09:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Womack <twomack@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-04-09 09:21 +0100
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 14:47 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 16:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 15:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 10:45 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 19:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:41 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-06 17:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 12:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:28 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 23:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:31 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:42 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:07 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-07 15:55 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 14:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:19 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:47 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 16:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-09 18:17 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 00:37 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-10 16:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-11 16:41 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-12 15:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:45 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:08 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 00:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-05 17:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-05 18:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 15:09 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-07 08:28 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-06 17:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 15:43 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 20:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 16:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 23:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 19:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 03:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 22:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 06:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 12:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 00:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:45 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:12 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:08 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 22:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 17:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 04:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 23:31 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:56 +0000
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:34 +0000
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:48 +0000
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:59 +0000
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:19 +0000
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:57 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:44 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:29 +0000
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:09 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 20:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 23:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 04:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-07 16:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:43 +0000
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:19 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 23:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 20:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 05:49 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 23:09 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:10 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 21:03 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:27 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:27 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-07 21:40 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:47 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 15:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 19:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 21:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 17:37 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 08:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:53 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:31 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 18:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 03:22 +0000
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:01 +0000
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:53 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 01:47 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 20:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 04:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 22:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:43 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-10 17:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 17:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 05:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 01:43 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-11 16:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Rick Jones <rick.jones2@hpe.com> - 2016-04-11 18:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-12 15:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:09 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:45 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-13 15:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 09:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:15 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:47 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:25 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 02:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 21:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:46 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 02:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:57 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 20:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-17 05:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 23:58 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-14 16:46 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:31 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:27 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 02:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 21:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:17 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:38 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 16:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 02:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:12 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:15 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:18 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 18:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 13:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:21 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 04:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-03-28 11:47 +1100
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 21:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2016-03-28 08:12 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2016-03-28 19:10 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2016-03-28 20:10 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-03-29 07:42 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2016-03-29 18:17 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <mooregr@deletethisgreenms.com> - 2016-03-29 23:03 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-29 21:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-29 21:19 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 20:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-03-29 04:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 23:58 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon bob haller <hallerb@aol.com> - 2016-04-07 20:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 08:21 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:09 -0700
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| From | William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-06 20:02 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <8bb83cee-673d-4735-9556-626d2484c0da@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #55689 |
People like to spend crazy resources to do exciting and dangerous things just for the sheer thrill of it; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRqnTODwvEA There are about 70,000 skydivers in the world today that jump 3.3 million times per year. About 21 people are killed each year doing this. Jet powered wings are being developed, and there are rocket powered wingsuits also under development as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaNZzUg5Opg&nohtml5=False https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pmjur9gBj0U&nohtml5=False some are built around spacesuits and hauled into space https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvbN-cWe0A0 More powerful rockets are being developed with advanced avionics - to extend their range further. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07Pm8ZY0XJI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vleASILamss Lowering the cost of space launch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSF81yjVbJE The SpaceX Falcon Heavy can place 16,000 kg into trans lunar trajectory. Equipped with 8,000 kg of propellant, a fully loaded capsule enters lunar orbit and returns. This is sufficient to take seven astronauts to lunar orbit and back. Once on lunar orbit, each astronaut uses a rocket belt to land on the moon, stay there for up to six hours, and return to lunar orbit. The rocket belt is refueled, and the astronauts land again at another location. http://www.wired.com/2013/07/lunar-flying-units-1969/ http://www.astronautix.com/craft/leap.htm A total of six rocket belts carry out a total of 28 flights allowing 7 astronauts four visists to the moon, 6 at a time, while the 7th stays on board tending the ship. There are twenty sites where landers (both manned and unmanned) are reported to have landed. Doing up to six landings per day - up to five days in lunar orbit - provides ample time to carry out the requisite number of flights. There are 55,000 people who have more than $200 million cash assets. One flight per month with seven paid seats per flight, at $45 million per seat, generates $315 million per launch, and 12 launches per year require 84 persons to sign up at this price. This is 1/6th of a percent market penetration. In short, this is an easily achieved level of market penetration into this population. This is $3.78 billion per year in revenue for twelve flights per year costing $732 million. With $5 million per seat for things like spacesuits, and propellant, training, etc., a total cost of $1.152 billion per year - earning $2.628 billion per year. Allocating $1 billion per year for deploying robots on other planets, this provides a means to return people to the moon whilst exploring the solar system with robots. On Tuesday, April 5, 2016 at 3:13:26 PM UTC+12, bob haller wrote: > On Monday, April 4, 2016 at 2:46:04 PM UTC-4, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > > In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote: > > > For your reference, records indicate that > > > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > > > > > >> In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote: > > >> > Actually we could start building it as soon as the Falcon Heavy becomes > > >> > operational: > > >> > > > >> > NASA scientists say we could colonise the Moon by 2022... for just $10 > > >> > billion. > > >> > What are we waiting for? > > >> > > >> $10 billion without a better purpose? > > > > > > Some might argue that blowing up shit in the Middle East is not a > > > better purpose. A more pointed question would be whether or not that > > > budget and timeline is actually accurate, or if it won't be more like > > > $200 billion spent and a wait until 2035. > > > > > >> Some rational reason to "colonise" the moon, which will never happen > > >> as no Moon colony could ever be self supporting. > > > > > > History has shown a pretty big halo effect for such projects, so I > > > would expect quite a bit of indirect economic value in new Moon and > > > Mars missions. But I would agree that NASA would do well to make a > > > more direct case for why a Moon colony would be a valuable resource > > > to have. > > > > All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and > > growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. > > > > Survival on the Moon or Mars for more than a few minutes requires state > > of the art technology and constant resupply. > > > > The closest thing in history is Antarctica, where there are no colonies > > but only research stations. > > > > I'm all for sending swarms of robots throughout the solar system, but > > sending people is a waste of resources. > > > > > > -- > > Jim Pennino > > i have to agree, robots could do the entire solar system for a fraction of the costs..
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| From | Jack Ryan <mixmaster@remailer.cpunk.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 03:50 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <7c27b9bce4659fe96934b3127c10672a@remailer.cpunk.us> |
| In reply to | #55684 |
In article <1poatc-pc1.ln1@mail.specsol.com> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > > In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote: > > For your reference, records indicate that > > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > > > >> In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote: > >> > Actually we could start building it as soon as the Falcon Heavy becomes > >> > operational: > >> > > >> > NASA scientists say we could colonise the Moon by 2022... for just $10 > >> > billion. > >> > What are we waiting for? > >> > >> $10 billion without a better purpose? > > > > Some might argue that blowing up shit in the Middle East is not a > > better purpose. A more pointed question would be whether or not that > > budget and timeline is actually accurate, or if it won’t be more like > > $200 billion spent and a wait until 2035. > > > >> Some rational reason to "colonise" the moon, which will never happen > >> as no Moon colony could ever be self supporting. > > > > History has shown a pretty big halo effect for such projects, so I > > would expect quite a bit of indirect economic value in new Moon and > > Mars missions. But I would agree that NASA would do well to make a > > more direct case for why a Moon colony would be a valuable resource > > to have. > > All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and > growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. .... Iceland? Greenland? Northern Newfundland? Hell, for much of Europe surviving after being dropped nude in the Winter is not likely. If the Pilgrims had landed at Plymouth bare assed in the Winter they would probably not have survived long. You might want to amend your statement about all historical colonies.
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 18:20 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <29cdtc-88a.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #55691 |
In sci.physics Jack Ryan <mixmaster@remailer.cpunk.us> wrote: > In article <1poatc-pc1.ln1@mail.specsol.com> > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >> >> In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote: >> > For your reference, records indicate that >> > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >> > >> >> In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote: >> >> > Actually we could start building it as soon as the Falcon Heavy becomes >> >> > operational: >> >> > >> >> > NASA scientists say we could colonise the Moon by 2022... for just $10 >> >> > billion. >> >> > What are we waiting for? >> >> >> >> $10 billion without a better purpose? >> > >> > Some might argue that blowing up shit in the Middle East is not a >> > better purpose. A more pointed question would be whether or not that >> > budget and timeline is actually accurate, or if it won?t be more like >> > $200 billion spent and a wait until 2035. >> > >> >> Some rational reason to "colonise" the moon, which will never happen >> >> as no Moon colony could ever be self supporting. >> > >> > History has shown a pretty big halo effect for such projects, so I >> > would expect quite a bit of indirect economic value in new Moon and >> > Mars missions. But I would agree that NASA would do well to make a >> > more direct case for why a Moon colony would be a valuable resource >> > to have. >> >> All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and >> growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. .... > > Iceland? Greenland? Northern Newfundland? > > Hell, for much of Europe surviving after being dropped nude in the > Winter is not likely. > > If the Pilgrims had landed at Plymouth bare assed in the Winter > they would probably not have survived long. > > You might want to amend your statement about all historical > colonies. OK, dropped in with nothing more than a heavy winter coat. No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century technology to survive. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 16:14 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <6eh8gb5km5r5jfkekgffgks4tcp86vr22j@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #55693 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Jack Ryan <mixmaster@remailer.cpunk.us> wrote:
>> In article <1poatc-pc1.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>
>>> In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>>> > For your reference, records indicate that
>>> > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>>> >> > Actually we could start building it as soon as the Falcon Heavy becomes
>>> >> > operational:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > NASA scientists say we could colonise the Moon by 2022... for just $10
>>> >> > billion.
>>> >> > What are we waiting for?
>>> >>
>>> >> $10 billion without a better purpose?
>>> >
>>> > Some might argue that blowing up shit in the Middle East is not a
>>> > better purpose. A more pointed question would be whether or not that
>>> > budget and timeline is actually accurate, or if it won?t be more like
>>> > $200 billion spent and a wait until 2035.
>>> >
>>> >> Some rational reason to "colonise" the moon, which will never happen
>>> >> as no Moon colony could ever be self supporting.
>>> >
>>> > History has shown a pretty big halo effect for such projects, so I
>>> > would expect quite a bit of indirect economic value in new Moon and
>>> > Mars missions. But I would agree that NASA would do well to make a
>>> > more direct case for why a Moon colony would be a valuable resource
>>> > to have.
>>>
>>> All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and
>>> growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. ....
>>
>> Iceland? Greenland? Northern Newfundland?
>>
>> Hell, for much of Europe surviving after being dropped nude in the
>> Winter is not likely.
>>
>> If the Pilgrims had landed at Plymouth bare assed in the Winter
>> they would probably not have survived long.
>>
>> You might want to amend your statement about all historical
>> colonies.
>>
>
>OK, dropped in with nothing more than a heavy winter coat.
>
Colonies with insufficient support from 'back home' tended to
disappear. You talk like all colonization attempts are easily
successful. There are enough failed colonies to prove that to be
bullshit.
>
>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century
>technology to survive.
>
Bullshit. Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the
skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best
technology available at the time.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
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| From | Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 18:47 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ne1iqr$mb$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #55696 |
On 4/5/2016 6:14 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>> All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and >>>> growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. .... >>> > >> > > Bullshit. Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the > skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best > technology available at the time. > silly boy, the moon and mar have NO AIR, NO WATER, NO FOOD, NOTHING but sand and rocks, and high radiation.
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-06 00:00 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <rtc9gbduk05g2rmau799atnb5jeb2kqk04@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #55697 |
Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>On 4/5/2016 6:14 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>
>>>>> All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and
>>>>> growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. ....
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>> Bullshit. Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the
>> skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best
>> technology available at the time.
>>
>
>silly boy,
>
>the moon and mar have NO AIR, NO WATER, NO FOOD, NOTHING but sand and
>rocks, and high radiation.
>
Silly boy.
The moon and mar have resource that can produce air, water, and thus
food. Nothing between your ears but hard vacuum.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
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| From | Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 06:10 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.316ffc23adb80b479899a7@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #55697 |
In article <ne1iqr$mb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, invalid@invalid.com says... > > On 4/5/2016 6:14 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote: > > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > > >>>> All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and > >>>> growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. .... > >>> > > > >> > > > > Bullshit. Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the > > skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best > > technology available at the time. > > > > > silly boy, > > the moon and mar have NO AIR, NO WATER, NO FOOD, NOTHING but sand and > rocks, and high radiation. Both the moon and Mars have water. Mars has a very thin atmosphere of CO2. Other chemicals, such as oxygen on the moon, can be extracted from the local "soil". No, there are no animals or plants to eat, but the raw materials are definitely there to make them. Jeff -- All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone. These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends, employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 18:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <fqmitc-mir.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #55733 |
In sci.physics Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> wrote: > In article <ne1iqr$mb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, invalid@invalid.com says... >> >> On 4/5/2016 6:14 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote: >> > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >> >> >>>> All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and >> >>>> growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. .... >> >>> >> > >> >> >> > >> > Bullshit. Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the >> > skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best >> > technology available at the time. >> > >> >> >> silly boy, >> >> the moon and mar have NO AIR, NO WATER, NO FOOD, NOTHING but sand and >> rocks, and high radiation. > > Both the moon and Mars have water. Mars has a very thin atmosphere of > CO2. Other chemicals, such as oxygen on the moon, can be extracted from > the local "soil". No, there are no animals or plants to eat, but the > raw materials are definitely there to make them. > > Jeff There are no raw materials off the Earth to make Jello. Sure you can theoretically do all that, all it takes is very large, very sophisticated, very heavy, very expensive, and very expensive to transport equipment along with a very expensive power system to make it all work. The key here is the horrendous cost of getting things to the Moon or Mars in the first place and that any equipment used there will likely be a one off custom design that will come at another huge expense. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 16:35 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <0e49b077-e3a4-40ae-b992-816a45ebf3c1@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #55743 |
On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 7:01:03 AM UTC+12, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > In sci.physics Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> wrote: > > In article <ne1iqr$mb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, invalid@invalid.com says... > >> > >> On 4/5/2016 6:14 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote: > >> > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >> > >> >>>> All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and > >> >>>> growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. .... > >> >>> > >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> > Bullshit. Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the > >> > skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best > >> > technology available at the time. > >> > > >> > >> > >> silly boy, > >> > >> the moon and mar have NO AIR, NO WATER, NO FOOD, NOTHING but sand and > >> rocks, and high radiation. > > > > Both the moon and Mars have water. Mars has a very thin atmosphere of > > CO2. Other chemicals, such as oxygen on the moon, can be extracted from > > the local "soil". No, there are no animals or plants to eat, but the > > raw materials are definitely there to make them. > > > > Jeff > > There are no raw materials off the Earth to make Jello. Yes there is. The same materials that exist on Earth exist everywhere in the cosmos. Spectroscopy proves that. > Sure you can theoretically do all that, So, which is it? Obviously, since the same materials exist everywhere as exist here, we can easily make whatever we want anywhere in the cosmos. > all it takes is very large, very > sophisticated, very heavy, very expensive, and very expensive to transport > equipment along with a very expensive power system to make it all work. All things human do require very sophisticated processes. However, their cost and weight, and what must be transported to instantiate those processes is a function of technical skill and know how. > The key here is the horrendous cost of getting things to the Moon or Mars > in the first place and that any equipment used there will likely be a > one off custom design that will come at another huge expense. You presume things that seem reasonable, but arise from a profound ignorance of what is possible, and as a result, your presumptions are not necessarily so. You mentioned Jello. So, let's look at that as a good example Jello is made from inedible collagens which are processed into edible proteins by dissolving those proteins in hydrochloric acid. The dissolved protiens then extracted and purified rendering them edible in the process. A very useful thing to do in a closed cycle setup. Its easy to see that this process is an important one since it is critical to close the life support system of a colony. So, what's involved? Here is a good primer reference on the process; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bYIow9pc6M And a more detailed reference here; https://www.academia.edu/8410348/Industrial_Gelatin_Manufacture-Theory_and_Practice Now, you can take this process chart and send it to a qualified vendor, such as this one; http://www.precoinc.com/newsletter/2014/january/lab-on-a-chip-production/ To produce a process on chip that is about the size of a postage stamp, and processes a milliliter of gelatin per day. These will cost about $35,000 per spin, and it will likely take 3 or 4 spins to get the details right. So, about $150,000 in risk capital. Then, you with a prototype, you figure out what the product will cost in larger quantities. You will have something about 1 cm2 and a few mm thick, that processes a millilitre of gelatine a day from a millilitre of collagen a day. At that scale, you'd get 706 of them on a 300 mm diameter wafer. Such a wafer costs about $1500 in small quantity and trends down to $750 per wafer in larger quantity. So, you've got $1 to $2 per chip - to process 1 cc or more per day of gelatine massing 1 gram. That's your basic jello making chip set. How many do you need? A pack of Jello-Brand gelatine weighs 85 grams and last year 300 million packets were sold in 158 flavourings in the USA. That's about 1 packet of 85 grams per person per year. So, a chip that costs $1 that makes bones, nail clippings skin hair fur feathers and similar wastes into edible products, for 4.3 persons per chip at this productivity and level of consumption. Gelatine has about 42.5 MJ/kg so 1 gram has 42.5 kJ/g - and the process described above is about 16% efficient, so multiply by six - that means each chip will consume about 2.95 Watts of power - and that's 686 milliwatts per person. 6 kWh per year in energy costs and at $0.11 per kWh that's $0.66 for a package of gelatine. The cost and weight are negligible. The feedstock is waste. The cost of energy determines the cost of the product. In short, you can have Jello with your meals if you like all made in situ with no transportation costs between worlds. Lab on Chip or Micro Electro Mechanical Systems - make 3D printed drugs possible. This can also be used to make 3D printed flavourings as well. http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/08/3d-printing-pills-spritam-drug-industry/401177/ So, we can have the 158 flavourings too. What can be done with gelatine, can be done with ANYTHING! We can print 3D organs for medicine, we can also print 3D food items. http://3dprinting.com/food/ When we build swarms of mobile 'print heads' that operate together to create 3d patterns very rapidly, we will have something very similar to the food replicator of fiction, all using well defined near term technology available now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl3JjgeDp68 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK54Bu9HFRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIEhi_sAkU8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihR9SX7dgRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEez9lNh8Uw So, what's the minimum mass we need to send to live well? We make use of self-replicating machine cells that swarm together to extract needed materials from the environment to organise the environment to our needs. This is called a self-replicating utility fog. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXpkG93KzdY How much do we need? The answer is about 10 kg. Half of that are seed cells that are held in stasis during the trip. About 2,000 varieties of plant and animal cells, that are feed by algae that doubles in mass every 33 hours when in the right environment. The other half are a variety of machine cells that extract materials from the environment using available sunlight. One variety processes regolith. Another variety processes air. Yet another processes sunlight. Each variety cooperates with the others, and each is given a cascade of tasks after landing to grow into a self sufficient homestead for the astronauts who came along as well. Housing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YiPLjozLdU Clothing http://www.electroloom.com So, an adult that has sufficient resources to survive 30 days in the vacuum of space, along with another 20 kg of self-replicating utility fog, in a mechancal counter-pressure suit all massing 98 kg - including astronaut (on average) means that a 53 ton payload of a Falcon Heavy, with a LOX/Methane rocket with a 3.73 km/sec exhaust speed, must achieve a delta vee of 6 km/sec requires 42.9 tons of propellant and carries 10.1 tons of payload. At 100 kg per person, (structure) this is enough to carry 100 people to mars, in stasis. With 30 days of supplies, they spend a day watching Earth disappear, and re-awaken a day before aerobraking on Mars. I mentioned the deep space stage as if it were a single ship. It is not. Each person is dressed in a long duration spacesuit, and has their own MEMS based rocket array on the suit surface. The suit allows them to boost to Mars, enter stasis, re-awaken, and land on the red planet, plant your machine system, and tend to its growth into the homestead of your dreams. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C_jPcUkVrM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqfnMzDhi38 Stasis - suspended animation - metabolic flexibility - are different words for the same thing. It is als a solved problem. It is being used on humans today to extend life at the scenes of tragic accidents. It is being explored as a means to bring combatants into custody with less risks to all. It will be used to explore the cosmos. https://labs.fhcrc.org/roth/ The cost of a Falcon heavy launch with all parts thrown away is $61 million. The cost of a Falcon heavy launch with all parts reused 150 times or more is less than $600,000. 100 divided by $600,000 is $6,000. Monsterous profits $10,000 - per person. So, we can see that we are very near to achieving a transformation in the way we relate to the cosmos. One ship whose parts and pieces are all brought back to the launch center and maintained and refuelled to relaunch in 4 hours, can place 6 payloads of 100 each per day. 600 persons per day - per ship. So, one ship can send 219,156 people to Mars per year. Ten ships can transport 2.2 million per year. 1500 ships can send 330 million per year - which reduces Earth's population. The world presently has nearly 20,000 airliners that transport 10 million people per day - 3.6 billion people per year. > > > -- > Jim Pennino
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| From | Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 14:23 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ne90ft$q93$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #55743 |
On 4/7/2016 1:51 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > In sci.physics Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> wrote: >> In article <ne1iqr$mb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, invalid@invalid.com says... >>> >>> On 4/5/2016 6:14 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote: >>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>>>> All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and >>>>>>> growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. .... >>>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Bullshit. Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the >>>> skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best >>>> technology available at the time. >>>> >>> >>> >>> silly boy, >>> >>> the moon and mar have NO AIR, NO WATER, NO FOOD, NOTHING but sand and >>> rocks, and high radiation. >> >> Both the moon and Mars have water. Mars has a very thin atmosphere of >> CO2. Other chemicals, such as oxygen on the moon, can be extracted from >> the local "soil". No, there are no animals or plants to eat, but the >> raw materials are definitely there to make them. >> >> Jeff > > There are no raw materials off the Earth to make Jello. > > Sure you can theoretically do all that, all it takes is very large, very > sophisticated, very heavy, very expensive, and very expensive to transport > equipment along with a very expensive power system to make it all work. > > The key here is the horrendous cost of getting things to the Moon or Mars > in the first place and that any equipment used there will likely be a > one off custom design that will come at another huge expense. > > take O2, how do you extract that from rocks ? What is needed rate of production? What does it take ? how much does the O2 plant weigh ? now, where do you get the N2 ? not from rocks... what is the rate of water you can get from the vaccuum of moon/mars surface ? 100 grams per day ?
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 13:25 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <cp4ggbdce0ihfgg1ekj0r34g929t73cu58@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #55787 |
Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>On 4/7/2016 1:51 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>> In sci.physics Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> wrote:
>>> In article <ne1iqr$mb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, invalid@invalid.com says...
>>>>
>>>> On 4/5/2016 6:14 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote:
>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and
>>>>>>>> growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. ....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bullshit. Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the
>>>>> skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best
>>>>> technology available at the time.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> silly boy,
>>>>
>>>> the moon and mar have NO AIR, NO WATER, NO FOOD, NOTHING but sand and
>>>> rocks, and high radiation.
>>>
>>> Both the moon and Mars have water. Mars has a very thin atmosphere of
>>> CO2. Other chemicals, such as oxygen on the moon, can be extracted from
>>> the local "soil". No, there are no animals or plants to eat, but the
>>> raw materials are definitely there to make them.
>>>
>>
>> There are no raw materials off the Earth to make Jello.
>>
>> Sure you can theoretically do all that, all it takes is very large, very
>> sophisticated, very heavy, very expensive, and very expensive to transport
>> equipment along with a very expensive power system to make it all work.
>>
>> The key here is the horrendous cost of getting things to the Moon or Mars
>> in the first place and that any equipment used there will likely be a
>> one off custom design that will come at another huge expense.
>>
>
>take O2, how do you extract that from rocks ? What is needed rate of
>production? What does it take ? how much does the O2 plant weigh ?
>
Oven. Whatever is needed. Oven. Whatever it needs to.
>
>now, where do you get the N2 ? not from rocks...
>
Why not? Does Google not work on your machine, either?
>
>what is the rate of water you can get from the vaccuum of moon/mars
>surface ? 100 grams per day ?
>
As much as you need. Both have lots of ice deposits
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
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| From | Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 09:57 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <neb5a1$dtb$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #55795 |
On 4/8/2016 3:25 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote:
> Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>
>>>>> silly boy,
>>>>>
>>>>> the moon and mar have NO AIR, NO WATER, NO FOOD, NOTHING but sand and
>>>>> rocks, and high radiation.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The key here is the horrendous cost of getting things to the Moon or Mars
>>> in the first place and that any equipment used there will likely be a
>>> one off custom design that will come at another huge expense.
>>>
>>
>> take O2, how do you extract that from rocks ? What is needed rate of
>> production? What does it take ? how much does the O2 plant weigh ?
>>
>
> Oven. Whatever is needed. Oven. Whatever it needs to.
no answer ? try to think it through.
man needs 500 liters of O2 per day
there are 10 men up there, 2 are needed to run the O2 plant, and 2 are
needed to run the Water plant, and 2 are needed to run the N2 plant.
so your O2 flow rate is 5,000 liters per day,
your N2 flow rate is 15,000 liters per day (assume a 25% O2)
and about 7.5 liters of water per day per person
so how many tons rocks do you cook per day ?
How much energy is needed to run the rock cooking plant?
What type of rocks work for O2 that are on the surface ?
where do you get 24 liters of water per day ? (assume a 25% recapture rate)
Biofilm questions: where does the lost water go? will the biofilm cause
dammage to the electronics? How much energy is used to keep the
Humidity down to below 70% ?
how do you reprocess the salt bath used for cooking the rocks ?
What rocks do you cook to get N2 ???
>
>>
>> now, where do you get the N2 ? not from rocks...
>>
>
> Why not? Does Google not work on your machine, either?
you cannot find any common rocks with N in them, right ?
you have not thought this through have you?
go look on the NASA site, you wont see answers to the hard problems
either, although there are lots of studies on these issues.
Radiation! requires men on either moon or mars to live below ground 20
feet, and only go to surface 5% of the time. 95% of the time they must
be in the underground shelter, large tin can, to keep the radiation from
making them all go blind.
>
>>
>> what is the rate of water you can get from the vaccuum of moon/mars
>> surface ? 100 grams per day ?
>>
>
> As much as you need. Both have lots of ice deposits
dream on, tell your moon men to go suck on ice cubes at the poles.
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| From | William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 09:55 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <40ddbe1d-28ac-49e9-ae0e-4150dd0f38a7@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #55848 |
On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 2:58:14 AM UTC+12, Sergio wrote:
> On 4/8/2016 3:25 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote:
> > Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> >
>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> silly boy,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> the moon and mar have NO AIR, NO WATER, NO FOOD, NOTHING but sand and
> >>>>> rocks, and high radiation.
> >>>>
>
> >>>
> >>> The key here is the horrendous cost of getting things to the Moon or Mars
> >>> in the first place and that any equipment used there will likely be a
> >>> one off custom design that will come at another huge expense.
> >>>
> >>
> >> take O2, how do you extract that from rocks ? What is needed rate of
> >> production? What does it take ? how much does the O2 plant weigh ?
> >>
> >
> > Oven. Whatever is needed. Oven. Whatever it needs to.
>
> no answer ? try to think it through.
People have.
>
> man needs 500 liters of O2 per day
An adult male under somewhat vigorous activity, requires 686 grams of oxygen every 24 hours. Others need less. At STP a mole of any gas occupies 22.4 litres. That's 480.2 litres of oxygen at STP.
> there are 10 men up there,
So, 6.86 kg of oxygen is consumed and they combine that oxygen in their bodies with carbon and hydrogen producing 8.57 kg of CO2 along with 0.71 kg of H2O.
> 2 are needed to run the O2 plant, and 2 are
> needed to run the Water plant, and 2 are needed to run the N2 plant.
Nonsense. This is not the experience in nuclear submarine crews, and it is unlikely to be the experience with space crews. Systems will be highly automated and require little time and attention.
> so your O2 flow rate is 5,000 liters per day,
6.86 kg per day. The volume depends on the air pressure, which at STP is 4,802 litres.
> your N2 flow rate is 15,000 liters per day (assume a 25% O2)
Nitrogen is not consumed, so this is an overstatement.
> and about 7.5 liters of water per day per person
400 grams of water per day consumed directly, and 2,650 grams of food per day, 80% of the food is water by weight, so that's 2,120 grams of water. So, that's 2620 grams of water per day. Don't forget there is also 1936 grams of waste per day and 857 grams of water vapour emitted per day.
Now, there are other than direct uses, but these can vary depending on details. A biosuit equipped with a smart sponge material can keep a person clean and rash free with far less water than we use on daily basis.
So, your 75 kg per day is an overstatement for ten folks. However, accepting that overstated figure, it takes 10,800 Joules to purify dirty water. So, 810,000 joules is required to purify that much water from waste each day. Dividing by the number of seconds in a day this translates to 9.375 Watts.
>
> so how many tons rocks do you cook per day ?
With recycling that depends on your growth rate, your loss rate, and your standard of living. To replicate the living standards of Monaco, one of the wealthiest nations on Earth, requires that 62.5 square meters of surface be pressurised and built up using 625 metric tons of material. This is extracted from 3,125 tons of rock - and includes EVERYTHING necessary for life.
Now a kilogram of solar collectors collects 16 sq meters of sunlight, which on Mars produces 1,924 Watts during the day. It takes 45 megajoules to process 1 kg of material. So, it takes 6.5 hours for self replicating solar collectors to double in size. Self replicating machinery was perfected at Bath University in Britain in 2005. So you have two doublins per Martian day. So, starting with 1 kg of self replicating machine cells, we have 4 kg after the first day, 16 kg after the second day, 64 kg the third day and so on. In eleven days we have processed 3,125 tons of rock into 625 tons of useful materials which is then reorganised to meet the needs of an individual.
You only extract from rock what you need, and then recycle. That's the way we do it on Earth. That's the way they will do it on other planets.
The most straightforward approach is to use a solar pumped laser to blast rock into a plasma, and then use electric and magnetic fields to separate ALL the materials into elemental form. Then use an additive manufacturing technique to reassemble those elements into useful products as desired.
Once you have what you need, then you recycle your wastes as efficiently as possible.
CO2 + 4 H2 --> CH4 + 2 H2O
then
CH4 + energy --> C + 2 H2 pyrolysis
and
2 H2O + energy --> 2 H2 + O2 electrolysis
This requires 128 Watts per person to maintain. The equipment occupies about a half liter of space, and is fully automated.
> How much energy is needed to run the rock cooking plant?
> What type of rocks work for O2 that are on the surface ?
42% of all materials on Mars and the Moon as well as Earth are made of oxygen.
> where do you get 24 liters of water per day ? (assume a 25% recapture rate)
Mostly from wastewater.
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/What-We-Do/Global-Development/Reinvent-the-Toilet-Challenge
That's far less energy using.
Originally from extraction from rock.
> Biofilm questions: where does the lost water go?
Closed cycle systems loss rate is nil.
> will the biofilm cause
> dammage to the electronics?
I'm not understanding this question.
> How much energy is used to keep the
> Humidity down to below 70% ?
You are profoundly ignorant of common practice aboard US submarines then.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a213429.pdf
http://www.molecularproducts.com/us/case-studies/the-design-of-life-support-systems-for-submarines-military
> how do you reprocess the salt bath used for cooking the rocks ?
Nothing is wasted. You don't get that. At 45 MJ/kg you use everything. Rock is reduced to an elemental plasma, the plasma line is then separated by time of flight mass spectrometry, and the component atoms recombine additively to produce any product desired.
http://www.kore.co.uk/tutorial.htm
http://additivemanufacturing.com/basics/
> What rocks do you cook to get N2 ???
On the moon's surface (we have yet to probe deeply into the moon) nitrogen is present at a rate of 280 grams per cubic meter of surface rock. So, to maintain a 78% nitrogen atmosphere in a 5 meter tall pressure vessel, above a square meter we must process 3.8 meters of rock - below each square meter. At 45 MJ/kg of rock processed this means that 77 MW of power are required to process 3 square meters per day. Since this involves processing ALL of the rock, we get EVERYTHING we need for that 3 square meters.
CREATING a habitat is different than operating one. Once you have a habitat, nitrogen is not consumed, but recycled within the habitat.
On Mars things are quite different. There 1.9% of the Martian atmosphere is Nitrogen. So pressurising the atmosphere 7800x and extracting the nitrogen provides adequate nitrogen supplies.
> >
> >>
> >> now, where do you get the N2 ? not from rocks...
> >>
> >
> > Why not? Does Google not work on your machine, either?
>
> you cannot find any common rocks with N in them, right ?
I cited several papers that detail the surface rocks on the moon have 280 grams per cubic meter of rock. On Mars its common knowledge that there is sufficient nitrogen to pressurise the entire surface to earth normal conditions to a depth of 5 meters.
> you have not thought this through have you?
Other have, and have exceptional experience in building systems like long duration submarines.
> go look on the NASA site, you wont see answers to the hard problems
> either, although there are lots of studies on these issues.
There are operating systems today. There are no show stoppers whatever.
> Radiation! requires men on either moon or mars to live below ground 20
> feet, and only go to surface 5% of the time. 95% of the time they must
> be in the underground shelter, large tin can, to keep the radiation from
> making them all go blind.
You've never heard of EX-RAD have you?
We all have stem cells. Activating and manipulating these cells in our bodies have the ability to maintain our health despite damage caused by radiation. This will also be used to extend life span.
>
>
>
>
> >
> >>
> >> what is the rate of water you can get from the vaccuum of moon/mars
> >> surface ? 100 grams per day ?
> >>
> >
> > As much as you need. Both have lots of ice deposits
>
> dream on, tell your moon men to go suck on ice cubes at the poles.
India and China probes of the moon have found water on the moon.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/24/water-moon-space-exploration-india
This stands in stark contrast of US reports which said there was no water. This calls US experience into question. When we return to the moon, we will find out the truth of these matters, and the explanation for these discrepancies.
There appears to be plenty of ice on the poles of the moon. As there is ice on the poles of Mercury. Hydrogen streaming from the sun, bombarding silicates on the surface of the moon, produces hydrates, including water. If the water is protected, it will remain where it was formed.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/features/chandrayaan1/waterMolecules/
The Chinese are sending robots to these locations to process the water and rock into useful forms that astronauts arriving later can use. This is the tecnique that will be generally used to minimise risk to crews.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 12:38 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <9emigbh5sjs9e2062d5f8agah2tquorqkk@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #55858 |
William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> wrote:
>India and China probes of the moon have found water on the moon.
>
>http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/24/water-moon-space-exploration-india
>
>This stands in stark contrast of US reports which said there was no water. This calls US experience into question. When we return to the moon, we will find out the truth of these matters, and the explanation for these discrepancies.
>
Actually, US reports were from 50 years ago before the small amounts
of water present in lunar rocks could be detected. Analysis of Apollo
samples shows a few thousand ppm water. A US probe showed ice at the
poles.
--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 10:20 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <9pbigbdqsau5m447s9obvpmt4ped1fgkmj@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #55848 |
Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>On 4/8/2016 3:25 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote:
>> Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> silly boy,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the moon and mar have NO AIR, NO WATER, NO FOOD, NOTHING but sand and
>>>>>> rocks, and high radiation.
>>>>>
>
>>>>
>>>> The key here is the horrendous cost of getting things to the Moon or Mars
>>>> in the first place and that any equipment used there will likely be a
>>>> one off custom design that will come at another huge expense.
>>>>
>>>
>>> take O2, how do you extract that from rocks ? What is needed rate of
>>> production? What does it take ? how much does the O2 plant weigh ?
>>>
>>
>> Oven. Whatever is needed. Oven. Whatever it needs to.
>
>no answer ?
>
I gave you an answer. You just don't like it.
>
> try to think it through.
>
Great advice. You should follow it.
>
> man needs 500 liters of O2 per day
> there are 10 men up there, 2 are needed to run the O2 plant,
>
Why? It's automated.
>
>and 2 are needed to run the Water plant,
>
Why? It's automated.
>
>and 2 are needed to run the N2 plant.
>
Why? It's automated.
>so your O2 flow rate is 5,000 liters per day,
>your N2 flow rate is 15,000 liters per day (assume a 25% O2)
>and about 7.5 liters of water per day per person
>
>so how many tons rocks do you cook per day ?
>
Figure it out. A person needs less than a kilogram of oxygen per day.
Lunar rocks are typically about 40% oxygen by weight. So given your
specified crew size (which you didn't bother with before when you
asked the question) you need to cook about .01 tons of rock per day.
>
>How much energy is needed to run the rock cooking plant?
>
What does it matter? You have shitloads available from the Sun.
>
>What type of rocks work for O2 that are on the surface ?
>
Almost any of them. Lunar rock is largely oxides of various types.
>
>where do you get 24 liters of water per day ? (assume a 25% recapture rate)
>
Why is the recapture rate so low? Why does your math not work out?
Your earlier claim was 10 people times 7.5 liters per day (which is
high, by the way) which gives a 75 liter per day requirement with 25%
recapture (around 19 liters) which leaves a 56 liter per day
requirement. Now that's down to 24 liters for some reason. It's
simple arithmetic, dude. Keep it straight.
There are several thousand ppm water in typical lunar rock, but you
don't need to mess with that. You get the water from ice deposits. At
the rate you're talking there's plenty.
>
>Biofilm questions: where does the lost water go? will the biofilm cause
>dammage to the electronics? How much energy is used to keep the
>Humidity down to below 70% ?
>
Never heard of a dehumidifier? They're all the rage here on Earth.
Again, how much power doesn't matter because there is shitloads lying
around for free.
>
>how do you reprocess the salt bath used for cooking the rocks ?
>
Uh, the what? Think 'oven', not 'crock pot'.
>
>What rocks do you cook to get N2 ???
>
Any of them. Content is fairly low (on the order of 10 ppm).
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> now, where do you get the N2 ? not from rocks...
>>>
>>
>> Why not? Does Google not work on your machine, either?
>
>you cannot find any common rocks with N in them, right ?
>
>you have not thought this through have you?
>
Nitrogen isn't consumed the way oxygen is, so you don't need to
produce it at the rates you claim. In fact, your whole atmospheric
calculation is wonky.
>
>go look on the NASA site, you wont see answers to the hard problems
>either, although there are lots of studies on these issues.
>
>Radiation! requires men on either moon or mars to live below ground 20
>feet, and only go to surface 5% of the time. 95% of the time they must
>be in the underground shelter, large tin can, to keep the radiation from
>making them all go blind.
>
Cite for your preceding claims?
>
>>
>>>
>>> what is the rate of water you can get from the vaccuum of moon/mars
>>> surface ? 100 grams per day ?
>>>
>>
>> As much as you need. Both have lots of ice deposits
>
>dream on, tell your moon men to go suck on ice cubes at the poles.
>
Jesus, but you're a stupid troll. Perhaps you should pull your head
out of the Chimp's ass? I assume it's up his, because you don't seem
able to find your own ass with both hands.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-17 12:53 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <nf0iju$1fes$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #55859 |
On 4/9/2016 12:20 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote: > Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote: > >> On 4/8/2016 3:25 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote: >>> Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote: >>> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> silly boy, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the moon and mar have NO AIR, NO WATER, NO FOOD, NOTHING but sand and >>>>>>> rocks, and high radiation. >>>>>> >> >>>>> >>>>> The key here is the horrendous cost of getting things to the Moon or Mars >>>>> in the first place and that any equipment used there will likely be a >>>>> one off custom design that will come at another huge expense. >>>>> >>>> >>>> take O2, how do you extract that from rocks ? What is needed rate of >>>> production? What does it take ? how much does the O2 plant weigh ? >>>> >>> >>> Oven. Whatever is needed. Oven. Whatever it needs to. >> >> no answer ? >> > > I gave you an answer. You just don't like it. your mom's microwave oven ? fool. > >> >> try to think it through. >> > > Great advice. You should follow it. I dont expect any real answers or thoughts from you, you are an airhead. an airy-fairy new age pupa, > >> >> man needs 500 liters of O2 per day >> there are 10 men up there, 2 are needed to run the O2 plant, >> > > Why? It's automated. how big is your magic O2 plant ? how much molten salt does it have ? how many tons of rock must it decompose per hour ? > >> >> and 2 are needed to run the Water plant, >> > > Why? It's automated. how do you get water out of a almost perfect vacuum ? > >> >> and 2 are needed to run the N2 plant. >> > > Why? It's automated. where do you get N2 from ? > >> so your O2 flow rate is 5,000 liters per day, >> your N2 flow rate is 15,000 liters per day (assume a 25% O2) >> and about 7.5 liters of water per day per person >> >> so how many tons rocks do you cook per day ? >> > > Figure it out. A person needs less than a kilogram of oxygen per day. > Lunar rocks are typically about 40% oxygen by weight. So given your > specified crew size (which you didn't bother with before when you > asked the question) you need to cook about .01 tons of rock per day. try again, you are off by 10,000 tones per day. you suck at simple math how do you grind up the rocks ? how much energy does that take ? how do you clean the salt ? > >> >> How much energy is needed to run the rock cooking plant? >> > > What does it matter? You have shitloads available from the Sun. wrong answer, but it is what I expect from you, and airy-fairy hippie trippy baboon. you got 400 watts from the sun, the water and O2 plants take 400,000 watts. you gonna use your D cell battery ? you going to use your generator on a bike and pedale 400,000 watts ? > >> >> What type of rocks work for O2 that are on the surface ? >> > > Almost any of them. Lunar rock is largely oxides of various types. answer the question you evasive twit. what type of rocks ? > >> >> where do you get 24 liters of water per day ? (assume a 25% recapture rate) >> > > Why is the recapture rate so low? Why does your math not work out? > Your earlier claim was 10 people times 7.5 liters per day (which is > high, by the way) which gives a 75 liter per day requirement with 25% > recapture (around 19 liters) which leaves a 56 liter per day > requirement. Now that's down to 24 liters for some reason. It's > simple arithmetic, dude. Keep it straight. the question is WHERE do you get 24 liters of water per day ? answer the questions! > > There are several thousand ppm water in typical lunar rock, but you > don't need to mess with that. You get the water from ice deposits. At > the rate you're talking there's plenty. so the astronoughts have to go out and look for and mine "ice deposits" ? sure, that is a winner, how many men go out and look for your moon ice cubes? air-head. > >> >> Biofilm questions: where does the lost water go? will the biofilm cause >> dammage to the electronics? How much energy is used to keep the >> Humidity down to below 70% ? >> > > Never heard of a dehumidifier? They're all the rage here on Earth. > Again, how much power doesn't matter because there is shitloads lying > around for free. wrong again, go find out what they do for the space station, it is huge problem. you oversimplify everything, you should voulenteer for moon or mars and go there for 3 years. > >> >> how do you reprocess the salt bath used for cooking the rocks ? >> > > Uh, the what? Think 'oven', not 'crock pot'. you have no idea how to cook rocks to get O2, you are a simple parrot with no brain at all > >> >> What rocks do you cook to get N2 ??? >> > > Any of them. Content is fairly low (on the order of 10 ppm). wrong, answer the question. what rocks do you cook to get N2 ? gonna look for SiN ?? another mining adventure for your astronuts. > >> >> >> >>> >>>> >>>> now, where do you get the N2 ? not from rocks... >>>> >>> >>> Why not? Does Google not work on your machine, either? >> >> you cannot find any common rocks with N in them, right ? >> >> you have not thought this through have you? >> > > Nitrogen isn't consumed the way oxygen is, so you don't need to > produce it at the rates you claim. In fact, your whole atmospheric > calculation is wonky. where is yours ? oh, you dont have any. Polly want a thought ? > >> >> go look on the NASA site, you wont see answers to the hard problems >> either, although there are lots of studies on these issues. >> >> Radiation! requires men on either moon or mars to live below ground 20 >> feet, and only go to surface 5% of the time. 95% of the time they must >> be in the underground shelter, large tin can, to keep the radiation from >> making them all go blind. >> > > Cite for your preceding claims? NASA web site. > >> >>> >>>> >>>> what is the rate of water you can get from the vaccuum of moon/mars >>>> surface ? 100 grams per day ? >>>> >>> >>> As much as you need. Both have lots of ice deposits >> >> dream on, tell your moon men to go suck on ice cubes at the poles. >> > > Jesus, but you're a stupid troll. Perhaps you should pull your head > out of the Chimp's ass? I assume it's up his, because you don't seem > able to find your own ass with both hands. > you give in to insulting, because I win, you cannot do the math at all, you just an airhead parrot.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-17 13:01 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <2nn7hb90125cl8jejbb408mgsh9q1gj62p@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #56289 |
Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>On 4/9/2016 12:20 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote:
>> Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/8/2016 3:25 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote:
>>>> Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> silly boy,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the moon and mar have NO AIR, NO WATER, NO FOOD, NOTHING but sand and
>>>>>>>> rocks, and high radiation.
>>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The key here is the horrendous cost of getting things to the Moon or Mars
>>>>>> in the first place and that any equipment used there will likely be a
>>>>>> one off custom design that will come at another huge expense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> take O2, how do you extract that from rocks ? What is needed rate of
>>>>> production? What does it take ? how much does the O2 plant weigh ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oven. Whatever is needed. Oven. Whatever it needs to.
>>>
>>> no answer ?
>>>
>>
>> I gave you an answer. You just don't like it.
>
>your mom's microwave oven ?
>
Good lord, just go look it up for yourself, then.
>
>fool.
>
No need to sign your work.
>
>>
>>>
>>> try to think it through.
>>>
>>
>> Great advice. You should follow it.
>>
>
>I dont expect any real answers or thoughts from you, you are an airhead.
>an airy-fairy new age pupa,
>
That's really quite amusing and I'm afraid just shows what a stupid
shite you actually are.
>
>>
>>>
>>> man needs 500 liters of O2 per day
>>> there are 10 men up there, 2 are needed to run the O2 plant,
>>>
>>
>> Why? It's automated.
>>
>
>how big is your magic O2 plant ? how much molten salt does it have ?
>
What is your fixation with 'molten salt'? There are electrolytic
processes that would use molten salt, but it's not 'used up' so it's
not a big deal.
>
>how many tons of rock must it decompose per hour ?
>
Asked and answered. Martian rocks are largely oxides and are about a
third oxygen by weight. So how many tons of oxygen do you think you
need per hour? Multiply that by three.
>
>>
>>>
>>> and 2 are needed to run the Water plant,
>>>
>>
>> Why? It's automated.
>>
>
>how do you get water out of a almost perfect vacuum ?
>
Uh, you know there's lots of water on Mars, right? It exists as both
frozen ice and as liquid brines.
>
>>
>>>
>>> and 2 are needed to run the N2 plant.
>>>
>>
>> Why? It's automated.
>>
>
>where do you get N2 from ?
>
N2, as has been pointed out to you several times, is not consumed so I
don't need to 'get it' from anywhere.
>>
>>> so your O2 flow rate is 5,000 liters per day,
>>> your N2 flow rate is 15,000 liters per day (assume a 25% O2)
>>> and about 7.5 liters of water per day per person
>>>
>>> so how many tons rocks do you cook per day ?
>>>
>>
>> Figure it out. A person needs less than a kilogram of oxygen per day.
>> Lunar rocks are typically about 40% oxygen by weight. So given your
>> specified crew size (which you didn't bother with before when you
>> asked the question) you need to cook about .01 tons of rock per day.
>
>try again, you are off by 10,000 tones per day. you suck at simple math
>
Jesus, son, take your bloody shoes off and try again.
>
>how do you grind up the rocks ? how much energy does that take ?
>
We've had pulping mills for centuries.
>
>how do you clean the salt ?
>
What's with you and this fixation with salt and what do you think you
need to 'clean' out of it?
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> How much energy is needed to run the rock cooking plant?
>>>
>>
>> What does it matter? You have shitloads available from the Sun.
>>
>
>wrong answer, but it is what I expect from you, and airy-fairy hippie
>trippy baboon.
>
>you got 400 watts from the sun, the water and O2 plants take 400,000 watts.
>
Which orifice did you pull that power requirement number out of? I've
got 400 watts from the Sun PER METER OF PHOTOVOLTAIC CELLS. So I lay
out a 1000x1000 meter area of cells. Multiply it out; 1000x1000x0.4
gives 400kW, so if that's what you need (and that's a stupidly high
number, by the way, unless you need something like a quarter ton of
oxygen per day) that's what you do.
>
>you gonna use your D cell battery ? you going to use your generator on
>a bike and pedale 400,000 watts ?
>
Is that how you get your electricity here? In situ solar and (if
necessary) imported nuclear reactors is what I'd use on Mars, but what
you do is your problem.
>
>>
>>>
>>> What type of rocks work for O2 that are on the surface ?
>>>
>>
>> Almost any of them. Lunar rock is largely oxides of various types.
>>
>
>answer the question you evasive twit. what type of rocks ?
>
Asked and answered multiple times, you ignorant twat. Why is Mars
red?
>
>>
>>>
>>> where do you get 24 liters of water per day ? (assume a 25% recapture rate)
>>>
>>
>> Why is the recapture rate so low? Why does your math not work out?
>> Your earlier claim was 10 people times 7.5 liters per day (which is
>> high, by the way) which gives a 75 liter per day requirement with 25%
>> recapture (around 19 liters) which leaves a 56 liter per day
>> requirement. Now that's down to 24 liters for some reason. It's
>> simple arithmetic, dude. Keep it straight.
>>
>
>the question is WHERE do you get 24 liters of water per day ? answer
>the questions!
>
There's all sorts of water all over Mars. Listen to the answers!
>
>>
>> There are several thousand ppm water in typical lunar rock, but you
>> don't need to mess with that. You get the water from ice deposits. At
>> the rate you're talking there's plenty.
>>
>
>so the astronoughts have to go out and look for and mine "ice deposits"
>? sure, that is a winner, how many men go out and look for your moon ice
>cubes?
>
No, moron. You locate the ice first. DOH!
>
>air-head.
>
Dipshit.
>
>>
>>>
>>> Biofilm questions: where does the lost water go? will the biofilm cause
>>> dammage to the electronics? How much energy is used to keep the
>>> Humidity down to below 70% ?
>>>
>>
>> Never heard of a dehumidifier? They're all the rage here on Earth.
>> Again, how much power doesn't matter because there is shitloads lying
>> around for free.
>>
>
>wrong again, go find out what they do for the space station, it is huge
>problem.
>
Wrong again. Gravity makes a lot of problems easier.
>
>you oversimplify everything,
>
Nope. I simplify it just enough. You, meanwhile, don't think
anything can be done that hasn't been done and that a lot of things
that HAVE been done cannot be done.
>
>you should voulenteer for moon or mars and go there for 3 years.
>
You should learn to spell.
>
>>
>>>
>>> how do you reprocess the salt bath used for cooking the rocks ?
>>>
>>
>> Uh, the what? Think 'oven', not 'crock pot'.
>>
>
>you have no idea how to cook rocks to get O2, you are a simple parrot
>with no brain at all
>
Lots of people have already done lots of research about this. I'd
give you cites to some, but I think you're too stupid to read.
>
>>
>>>
>>> What rocks do you cook to get N2 ???
>>>
>>
>> Any of them. Content is fairly low (on the order of 10 ppm).
>>
>
>wrong, answer the question. what rocks do you cook to get N2 ?
>
Asked and answered. You not liking the answer doesn't make it
invalid.
>
>gonna look for SiN ?? another mining adventure for your astronuts.
>
Which part of 'any of them' and 'nitrogen isn't consumed so does not
have to be replenished' is it that's confusing you?
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> now, where do you get the N2 ? not from rocks...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why not? Does Google not work on your machine, either?
>>>
>>> you cannot find any common rocks with N in them, right ?
>>>
>>> you have not thought this through have you?
>>>
>>
>> Nitrogen isn't consumed the way oxygen is, so you don't need to
>> produce it at the rates you claim. In fact, your whole atmospheric
>> calculation is wonky.
>>
>
>where is yours ? oh, you dont have any. Polly want a thought ?
>
Oh, I see. I note that YOU are fucked up and that's my fault? Yeah,
sure.
>
>>
>>>
>>> go look on the NASA site, you wont see answers to the hard problems
>>> either, although there are lots of studies on these issues.
>>>
>>> Radiation! requires men on either moon or mars to live below ground 20
>>> feet, and only go to surface 5% of the time. 95% of the time they must
>>> be in the underground shelter, large tin can, to keep the radiation from
>>> making them all go blind.
>>>
>>
>> Cite for your preceding claims?
>>
>
>NASA web site.
>
Not a cite. Try again, dipshit. Point to the page.
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> what is the rate of water you can get from the vaccuum of moon/mars
>>>>> surface ? 100 grams per day ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As much as you need. Both have lots of ice deposits
>>>
>>> dream on, tell your moon men to go suck on ice cubes at the poles.
>>>
>>
>> Jesus, but you're a stupid troll. Perhaps you should pull your head
>> out of the Chimp's ass? I assume it's up his, because you don't seem
>> able to find your own ass with both hands.
>>
>
>you give in to insulting, because I win, you cannot do the math at all,
>you just an airhead parrot.
>
Irony. It's not at all like goldy or silvery.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-17 19:38 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <nf1ach$k9j$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #56292 |
On 4/17/2016 3:01 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote: > Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote: > >> On 4/9/2016 12:20 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote: >>> Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On 4/8/2016 3:25 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote: >>>>> Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> silly boy, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the moon and mar have NO AIR, NO WATER, NO FOOD, NOTHING but sand and >>>>>>>>> rocks, and high radiation. >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The key here is the horrendous cost of getting things to the Moon or Mars >>>>>>> in the first place and that any equipment used there will likely be a >>>>>>> one off custom design that will come at another huge expense. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> take O2, how do you extract that from rocks ? What is needed rate of >>>>>> production? What does it take ? how much does the O2 plant weigh ? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Oven. Whatever is needed. Oven. Whatever it needs to. >>>> >>>> no answer ? >>>> >>> >>> I gave you an answer. You just don't like it. >> >> your mom's microwave oven ? >> > > Good lord, just go look it up for yourself, then. unresponsive > >> >>> >>>> >>>> try to think it through. >>>> >>> >>> Great advice. You should follow it. >>> >> >> I dont expect any real answers or thoughts from you, you are an airhead. >> an airy-fairy new age pupa, >> > > That's really quite amusing and I'm afraid just shows what a stupid > shite you actually are. > unresponsive >> >>> >>>> >>>> man needs 500 liters of O2 per day >>>> there are 10 men up there, 2 are needed to run the O2 plant, >>>> >>> >>> Why? It's automated. >>> >> >> how big is your magic O2 plant ? how much molten salt does it have ? >> > > What is your fixation with 'molten salt'? There are electrolytic > processes that would use molten salt, but it's not 'used up' so it's > not a big deal. wrong. and again answer the question you evasive twit! what "magic" technology are you proposing to extract O2 from your moon rocks ? you have no clue. > >> >> how many tons of rock must it decompose per hour ? >> > > Asked and answered. Martian rocks are largely oxides and are about a > third oxygen by weight. So how many tons of oxygen do you think you > need per hour? Multiply that by three. again, no numbers, no math, because it is fiction. Make it real. how are you going to decompose moon rocks into O2 ? Your version. Answer NOW ! > >> >>> >>>> >>>> and 2 are needed to run the Water plant, >>>> >>> >>> Why? It's automated. >>> >> >> how do you get water out of a almost perfect vacuum ? >> > > Uh, you know there's lots of water on Mars, right? It exists as both > frozen ice and as liquid brines. so you are going to have your men on mars hunt for frozen ice ? and liquid bribes ? How much O2 and water does that take ? you haven't thought any of this through, Polly. How many hours a day can they stay on the surface without getting too much radiation exposure ? (hint: 2 hours MAX) > >> >>> >>>> >>>> and 2 are needed to run the N2 plant. >>>> >>> >>> Why? It's automated. >>> >> >> where do you get N2 from ? >> > > N2, as has been pointed out to you several times, is not consumed so I > don't need to 'get it' from anywhere. because you cant melt rocks to get N2 dummy. > >>> >>>> so your O2 flow rate is 5,000 liters per day, >>>> your N2 flow rate is 15,000 liters per day (assume a 25% O2) >>>> and about 7.5 liters of water per day per person >>>> >>>> so how many tons rocks do you cook per day ? >>>> >>> >>> Figure it out. A person needs less than a kilogram of oxygen per day. >>> Lunar rocks are typically about 40% oxygen by weight. So given your >>> specified crew size (which you didn't bother with before when you >>> asked the question) you need to cook about .01 tons of rock per day. >> >> try again, you are off by 10,000 tones per day. you suck at simple math >> > > Jesus, son, take your bloody shoes off and try again. you may call me Jesus, and you may worship me now. It is OK. > >> >> how do you grind up the rocks ? how much energy does that take ? >> > > We've had pulping mills for centuries. you havent. you are assuming earth energy available on mars and moon, which is lunacy. > >> >> how do you clean the salt ? >> > > What's with you and this fixation with salt and what do you think you > need to 'clean' out of it? Ok, how are you going to decompose your rocks to get O2. Answer the Question. NOW > >> >> >>> >>>> >>>> How much energy is needed to run the rock cooking plant? >>>> >>> >>> What does it matter? You have shitloads available from the Sun. >>> >> >> wrong answer, but it is what I expect from you, and airy-fairy hippie >> trippy baboon. >> >> you got 400 watts from the sun, the water and O2 plants take 400,000 watts. >> > > Which orifice did you pull that power requirement number out of? I've > got 400 watts from the Sun PER METER OF PHOTOVOLTAIC CELLS. nope, 200 max So I lay > out a 1000x1000 meter area of cells. Multiply it out; 1000x1000x0.4 > gives 400kW, so if that's what you need (and that's a stupidly high > number, by the way, unless you need something like a quarter ton of > oxygen per day) that's what you do. so you put out a square mile of solar cells, how much did it cost to do that, and now you have to have another man up there cleaning off the solar cells all the time, cheaper to put a nuke battery up there. > >> >> you gonna use your D cell battery ? you going to use your generator on >> a bike and pedale 400,000 watts ? >> > > Is that how you get your electricity here? In situ solar and (if > necessary) imported nuclear reactors is what I'd use on Mars, but what > you do is your problem. Im not going to Mars, no air, no water no food, live in a can 22 hours a day to survive the radiation. But you deserve to go up there. > >> >>> >>>> >>>> What type of rocks work for O2 that are on the surface ? >>>> >>> >>> Almost any of them. Lunar rock is largely oxides of various types. >>> >> >> answer the question you evasive twit. what type of rocks ? >> > > Asked and answered multiple times, you ignorant twat. Why is Mars > red? liar. what type of rocks ? can you google and find out ? why would there be oxide rocks of any kind if no air was on mars ? or did you forget again and assume earth rocks are on mars ? > >> >>> >>>> >>>> where do you get 24 liters of water per day ? (assume a 25% recapture rate) >>>> >>> >>> Why is the recapture rate so low? Why does your math not work out? >>> Your earlier claim was 10 people times 7.5 liters per day (which is >>> high, by the way) which gives a 75 liter per day requirement with 25% >>> recapture (around 19 liters) which leaves a 56 liter per day >>> requirement. Now that's down to 24 liters for some reason. It's >>> simple arithmetic, dude. Keep it straight. >>> >> >> the question is WHERE do you get 24 liters of water per day ? answer >> the questions! >> > > There's all sorts of water all over Mars. Listen to the answers! liar, in any given location there may be up to 4 atoms of water. it is a stinking vacuum, Polly. > >> >>> >>> There are several thousand ppm water in typical lunar rock, but you >>> don't need to mess with that. You get the water from ice deposits. At >>> the rate you're talking there's plenty. >>> >> >> so the astronoughts have to go out and look for and mine "ice deposits" >> ? sure, that is a winner, how many men go out and look for your moon ice >> cubes? >> > > No, moron. You locate the ice first. DOH! no you do it, you say there is water all over mars, where ? got URL ? or are you just making this stuff up ? (yes polly, you are dreaming full time) > >> >> air-head. >> > > Dipshit. twerker > >> >>> >>>> >>>> Biofilm questions: where does the lost water go? will the biofilm cause >>>> dammage to the electronics? How much energy is used to keep the >>>> Humidity down to below 70% ? >>>> >>> >>> Never heard of a dehumidifier? They're all the rage here on Earth. >>> Again, how much power doesn't matter because there is shitloads lying >>> around for free. >>> >> >> wrong again, go find out what they do for the space station, it is huge >> problem. >> > > Wrong again. Gravity makes a lot of problems easier. google for it Dumbass. vacuum of space on mars, moon, between your ears causes lots of problems > >> >> you oversimplify everything, >> > > Nope. I simplify it just enough. You, meanwhile, don't think > anything can be done that hasn't been done and that a lot of things > that HAVE been done cannot be done. non responsive > >> >> you should voulenteer for moon or mars and go there for 3 years. >> > > You should learn to spell. they need Engrlish teachers on Mars to find ice chips and suck the O2 out of rocks. > >> >>> >>>> >>>> how do you reprocess the salt bath used for cooking the rocks ? >>>> >>> >>> Uh, the what? Think 'oven', not 'crock pot'. >>> >> >> you have no idea how to cook rocks to get O2, you are a simple parrot >> with no brain at all >> > > Lots of people have already done lots of research about this. I'd > give you cites to some, but I think you're too stupid to read. liar, you have no cites. > >> >>> >>>> >>>> What rocks do you cook to get N2 ??? >>>> >>> >>> Any of them. Content is fairly low (on the order of 10 ppm). >>> >> >> wrong, answer the question. what rocks do you cook to get N2 ? >> > > Asked and answered. You not liking the answer doesn't make it > invalid. liar, again you do not know, you are making stuff up. > >> >> gonna look for SiN ?? another mining adventure for your astronuts. >> > > Which part of 'any of them' and 'nitrogen isn't consumed so does not > have to be replenished' is it that's confusing you? of course it is consumed, all gases in space vehicles lose gas, but you dont know that. or much of anything else, right Polly ? SwAwKK ! > >> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> now, where do you get the N2 ? not from rocks... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Why not? Does Google not work on your machine, either? >>>> >>>> you cannot find any common rocks with N in them, right ? >>>> >>>> you have not thought this through have you? >>>> >>> >>> Nitrogen isn't consumed the way oxygen is, so you don't need to >>> produce it at the rates you claim. In fact, your whole atmospheric >>> calculation is wonky. >>> >> >> where is yours ? oh, you dont have any. Polly want a thought ? >> > > Oh, I see. I note that YOU are fucked up and that's my fault? Yeah, > sure. your projecting again, nothing from you crank. as expected. wild clames, no thought behind any of them. > >> >>> >>>> >>>> go look on the NASA site, you wont see answers to the hard problems >>>> either, although there are lots of studies on these issues. >>>> >>>> Radiation! requires men on either moon or mars to live below ground 20 >>>> feet, and only go to surface 5% of the time. 95% of the time they must >>>> be in the underground shelter, large tin can, to keep the radiation from >>>> making them all go blind. >>>> >>> >>> Cite for your preceding claims? >>> >> >> NASA web site. >> > > Not a cite. Try again, dipshit. Point to the page. here you go; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll0e9cPB08Y > >> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> what is the rate of water you can get from the vaccuum of moon/mars >>>>>> surface ? 100 grams per day ? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As much as you need. Both have lots of ice deposits >>>> >>>> dream on, tell your moon men to go suck on ice cubes at the poles. >>>> >>> >>> Jesus, but you're a stupid troll. Perhaps you should pull your head >>> out of the Chimp's ass? I assume it's up his, because you don't seem >>> able to find your own ass with both hands. >>> >> >> you give in to insulting, because I win, you cannot do the math at all, >> you just an airhead parrot. >> > > Irony. It's not at all like goldy or silvery. Airhead Polly Parrot crank. No science at all.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-18 00:27 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <acv8hb54l4sherk2398bt6f6vnsffe3vlu@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #56296 |
Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>On 4/17/2016 3:01 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote:
>> Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/9/2016 12:20 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote:
>>>> Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/8/2016 3:25 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote:
>>>>>> Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> silly boy,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the moon and mar have NO AIR, NO WATER, NO FOOD, NOTHING but sand and
>>>>>>>>>> rocks, and high radiation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The key here is the horrendous cost of getting things to the Moon or Mars
>>>>>>>> in the first place and that any equipment used there will likely be a
>>>>>>>> one off custom design that will come at another huge expense.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> take O2, how do you extract that from rocks ? What is needed rate of
>>>>>>> production? What does it take ? how much does the O2 plant weigh ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oven. Whatever is needed. Oven. Whatever it needs to.
>>>>>
>>>>> no answer ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I gave you an answer. You just don't like it.
>>>
>>> your mom's microwave oven ?
>>>
>>
>> Good lord, just go look it up for yourself, then.
>
>unresponsive
>
Dipshit.
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> try to think it through.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Great advice. You should follow it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I dont expect any real answers or thoughts from you, you are an airhead.
>>> an airy-fairy new age pupa,
>>>
>>
>> That's really quite amusing and I'm afraid just shows what a stupid
>> shite you actually are.
>>
>
>unresponsive
>
Dipshit
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> man needs 500 liters of O2 per day
>>>>> there are 10 men up there, 2 are needed to run the O2 plant,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why? It's automated.
>>>>
>>>
>>> how big is your magic O2 plant ? how much molten salt does it have ?
>>>
>>
>> What is your fixation with 'molten salt'? There are electrolytic
>> processes that would use molten salt, but it's not 'used up' so it's
>> not a big deal.
>
>wrong. and again answer the question you evasive twit! what "magic"
>technology are you proposing to extract O2 from your moon rocks ?
>
>you have no clue.
>
You wouldn't know a clue if it was formally introduced to you and wore
a nametag.
>>
>>>
>>> how many tons of rock must it decompose per hour ?
>>>
>>
>> Asked and answered. Martian rocks are largely oxides and are about a
>> third oxygen by weight. So how many tons of oxygen do you think you
>> need per hour? Multiply that by three.
>
>again, no numbers, no math, because it is fiction.
>
I gave you numbers, dipshit. Three tons of rocks gets you one ton of
oxygen.
>
>Make it real. how are you going to decompose moon rocks into O2 ?
>
>Your version.
>
>Answer NOW !
>
Who the fuck do you think died and left you in charge, dipshit?
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> and 2 are needed to run the Water plant,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why? It's automated.
>>>>
>>>
>>> how do you get water out of a almost perfect vacuum ?
>>>
>>
>> Uh, you know there's lots of water on Mars, right? It exists as both
>> frozen ice and as liquid brines.
>>
>
>so you are going to have your men on mars hunt for frozen ice ? and
>liquid bribes ?
>
No, dipshit. You find those BEFORE people arrive.
>
>How much O2 and water does that take ?
>
None.
>
>you haven't thought any of this through, Polly.
>
You don't think at all, do you Wog?
>
>How many hours a day can they stay on the surface without getting too
>much radiation exposure ? (hint: 2 hours MAX)
>
You need to shove that hint back up your ass where it belongs. Surface
exposure on Mars is 0.67 mSv per day. What that means is that you can
spend a day, a month, or even a year on the surface and be fine (I'm
using Earth times because that's what the exposure limits are
enumerated in). You could spend 16 or so Earth years continually on
the surface before you'd hit career limits.
So the answer to your question is that they can stay on the surface
continuously.
Here. This is intended for school kids. Maybe you can have someone
explain it to you.
https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/284273main_Radiation_HS_Mod1.pdf
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> and 2 are needed to run the N2 plant.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why? It's automated.
>>>>
>>>
>>> where do you get N2 from ?
>>>
>>
>> N2, as has been pointed out to you several times, is not consumed so I
>> don't need to 'get it' from anywhere.
>>
>
>because you cant melt rocks to get N2 dummy.
>
Who said you could, dipshit? Who said you NEEDED TO, dipshit?
As you've been told repeatedly, N2 is not 'used up', so you don't need
to produce a bunch to replenish it.
>>
>>>>
>>>>> so your O2 flow rate is 5,000 liters per day,
>>>>> your N2 flow rate is 15,000 liters per day (assume a 25% O2)
>>>>> and about 7.5 liters of water per day per person
>>>>>
>>>>> so how many tons rocks do you cook per day ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Figure it out. A person needs less than a kilogram of oxygen per day.
>>>> Lunar rocks are typically about 40% oxygen by weight. So given your
>>>> specified crew size (which you didn't bother with before when you
>>>> asked the question) you need to cook about .01 tons of rock per day.
>>>
>>> try again, you are off by 10,000 tones per day. you suck at simple math
>>>
>>
>> Jesus, son, take your bloody shoes off and try again.
>>
>
>you may call me Jesus, and you may worship me now. It is OK.
>
Well, let's look at that a second. Your claim is now that I need 3300
tons of oxygen per day (which is what you'd get out of 10,000 tons or
rock)? Whatever the hell for?
>>
>>>
>>> how do you grind up the rocks ? how much energy does that take ?
>>>
>>
>> We've had pulping mills for centuries.
>
>you havent. you are assuming earth energy available on mars and moon,
>which is lunacy.
>
I'm assuming no such thing, dipshit. I can't be responsible for your
delusions. Oh, and just by the way, solar flux available at the Moon
pretty much is what's available on Earth. It's a bit more because of
the lack of air, but that's quibbling.
>>
>>>
>>> how do you clean the salt ?
>>>
>>
>> What's with you and this fixation with salt and what do you think you
>> need to 'clean' out of it?
>
>Ok, how are you going to decompose your rocks to get O2.
>
>Answer the Question. NOW
>
Piss off, dipshit. NOW
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How much energy is needed to run the rock cooking plant?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What does it matter? You have shitloads available from the Sun.
>>>>
>>>
>>> wrong answer, but it is what I expect from you, and airy-fairy hippie
>>> trippy baboon.
>>>
>>> you got 400 watts from the sun, the water and O2 plants take 400,000 watts.
>>>
>>
>> Which orifice did you pull that power requirement number out of? I've
>> got 400 watts from the Sun PER METER OF PHOTOVOLTAIC CELLS.
>
>nope, 200 max
>
Uh, *YOU* just said 400 watts. Now you're cutting it in half? You
need to pull your dick out so you can count to 'one'?
>
> So I lay
>> out a 1000x1000 meter area of cells. Multiply it out; 1000x1000x0.4
>> gives 400kW, so if that's what you need (and that's a stupidly high
>> number, by the way, unless you need something like a quarter ton of
>> oxygen per day) that's what you do.
>
>so you put out a square mile of solar cells, how much did it cost to do
>that, and now you have to have another man up there cleaning off the
>solar cells all the time, cheaper to put a nuke battery up there.
>
No, I put out a square kilometer of solar cells, not a square mile.
Since the cells are locally produced, 'cost' is sort of irrelevant.
What do you think is getting on the cells that requires them to be
constantly cleaned?
A 'nuke battery' (aka RTG) is a horrible idea. Their power density
sucks. You want real reactors.
>
>>
>>>
>>> you gonna use your D cell battery ? you going to use your generator on
>>> a bike and pedale 400,000 watts ?
>>>
>>
>> Is that how you get your electricity here? In situ solar and (if
>> necessary) imported nuclear reactors is what I'd use on Mars, but what
>> you do is your problem.
>>
>
>Im not going to Mars, no air, no water no food, live in a can 22 hours a
>day to survive the radiation.
>
You're not going because you're an ignorant twat.
>
>But you deserve to go up there.
>
Yes, I do, but that sort of thing is for younger men.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What type of rocks work for O2 that are on the surface ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Almost any of them. Lunar rock is largely oxides of various types.
>>>>
>>>
>>> answer the question you evasive twit. what type of rocks ?
>>>
>>
>> Asked and answered multiple times, you ignorant twat. Why is Mars
>> red?
>
>liar. what type of rocks ? can you google and find out ? why would
>there be oxide rocks of any kind if no air was on mars ?
>
Uh, where do you think a lot of the oxygen on Mars WENT? It didn't
just run down to WalMart and get mugged. It's in the rocks. Why do
you think Mars is red?
>
>or did you forget again and assume earth rocks are on mars ?
>
Jesus, but you're an ignorant twat. Once again, your delusions are
YOURS and I'm not responsible for them.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> where do you get 24 liters of water per day ? (assume a 25% recapture rate)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why is the recapture rate so low? Why does your math not work out?
>>>> Your earlier claim was 10 people times 7.5 liters per day (which is
>>>> high, by the way) which gives a 75 liter per day requirement with 25%
>>>> recapture (around 19 liters) which leaves a 56 liter per day
>>>> requirement. Now that's down to 24 liters for some reason. It's
>>>> simple arithmetic, dude. Keep it straight.
>>>>
>>>
>>> the question is WHERE do you get 24 liters of water per day ? answer
>>> the questions!
>>>
>>
>> There's all sorts of water all over Mars. Listen to the answers!
>
>liar, in any given location there may be up to 4 atoms of water.
>
>it is a stinking vacuum, Polly.
>
You're way too ignorant to be in this conversation. Go learn
something and get back to me, Wog.
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are several thousand ppm water in typical lunar rock, but you
>>>> don't need to mess with that. You get the water from ice deposits. At
>>>> the rate you're talking there's plenty.
>>>>
>>>
>>> so the astronoughts have to go out and look for and mine "ice deposits"
>>> ? sure, that is a winner, how many men go out and look for your moon ice
>>> cubes?
>>>
>>
>> No, moron. You locate the ice first. DOH!
>
>no you do it, you say there is water all over mars, where ? got URL ?
>
>or are you just making this stuff up ? (yes polly, you are dreaming
>full time)
>
Here, dipshit.
http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-confirms-evidence-that-liquid-water-flows-on-today-s-mars
Google "mars water" and go read the 121,000,000 hits you get.
>>
>>>
>>> air-head.
>>>
>>
>> Dipshit.
>
>twerker
>
ignorant delusional twat.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Biofilm questions: where does the lost water go? will the biofilm cause
>>>>> dammage to the electronics? How much energy is used to keep the
>>>>> Humidity down to below 70% ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Never heard of a dehumidifier? They're all the rage here on Earth.
>>>> Again, how much power doesn't matter because there is shitloads lying
>>>> around for free.
>>>>
>>>
>>> wrong again, go find out what they do for the space station, it is huge
>>> problem.
>>>
>>
>> Wrong again. Gravity makes a lot of problems easier.
>
>google for it Dumbass.
>
Google for it yourself, dumbass.
>
>vacuum of space on mars, moon, between your ears causes lots of problems
>
Yeah, but this ain't one of them.
>>
>>>
>>> you oversimplify everything,
>>>
>>
>> Nope. I simplify it just enough. You, meanwhile, don't think
>> anything can be done that hasn't been done and that a lot of things
>> that HAVE been done cannot be done.
>
>non responsive
>
non sequitur
>
>>
>>>
>>> you should voulenteer for moon or mars and go there for 3 years.
>>>
>>
>> You should learn to spell.
>
>they need Engrlish teachers on Mars to find ice chips and suck the O2
>out of rocks.
>
They'd be better at almost anything than you apparently are.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> how do you reprocess the salt bath used for cooking the rocks ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Uh, the what? Think 'oven', not 'crock pot'.
>>>>
>>>
>>> you have no idea how to cook rocks to get O2, you are a simple parrot
>>> with no brain at all
>>>
>>
>> Lots of people have already done lots of research about this. I'd
>> give you cites to some, but I think you're too stupid to read.
>
>liar, you have no cites.
>
dipshit, you read no cites.
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What rocks do you cook to get N2 ???
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any of them. Content is fairly low (on the order of 10 ppm).
>>>>
>>>
>>> wrong, answer the question. what rocks do you cook to get N2 ?
>>>
>>
>> Asked and answered. You not liking the answer doesn't make it
>> invalid.
>
>liar, again you do not know, you are making stuff up.
>
Again, I'm not responsible for your delusions. That's all you.
>
>>
>>>
>>> gonna look for SiN ?? another mining adventure for your astronuts.
>>>
>>
>> Which part of 'any of them' and 'nitrogen isn't consumed so does not
>> have to be replenished' is it that's confusing you?
>
>of course it is consumed, all gases in space vehicles lose gas, but you
>dont know that. or much of anything else, right Polly ? SwAwKK !
>
Nitrogen is a big fucking molecule, you ignorant twat. At normal
pressures you'd lose practically none over a span of years. Where do
you think it goes?
Hint: ISS requires some make up N2, but only because the docking
adapters lose it. That's not really a problem for a settlement.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> now, where do you get the N2 ? not from rocks...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why not? Does Google not work on your machine, either?
>>>>>
>>>>> you cannot find any common rocks with N in them, right ?
>>>>>
>>>>> you have not thought this through have you?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nitrogen isn't consumed the way oxygen is, so you don't need to
>>>> produce it at the rates you claim. In fact, your whole atmospheric
>>>> calculation is wonky.
>>>>
>>>
>>> where is yours ? oh, you dont have any. Polly want a thought ?
>>>
>>
>> Oh, I see. I note that YOU are fucked up and that's my fault? Yeah,
>> sure.
>
>your projecting again, nothing from you crank. as expected.
>
>wild clames, no thought behind any of them.
>
Wild clams? There's clams on Mars?
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> go look on the NASA site, you wont see answers to the hard problems
>>>>> either, although there are lots of studies on these issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> Radiation! requires men on either moon or mars to live below ground 20
>>>>> feet, and only go to surface 5% of the time. 95% of the time they must
>>>>> be in the underground shelter, large tin can, to keep the radiation from
>>>>> making them all go blind.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cite for your preceding claims?
>>>>
>>>
>>> NASA web site.
>>>
>>
>> Not a cite. Try again, dipshit. Point to the page.
>
>here you go;
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll0e9cPB08Y
>
So NOT the NASA web site, then. Liar. And nothing to do with your
claim, then. Liar.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> what is the rate of water you can get from the vaccuum of moon/mars
>>>>>>> surface ? 100 grams per day ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As much as you need. Both have lots of ice deposits
>>>>>
>>>>> dream on, tell your moon men to go suck on ice cubes at the poles.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jesus, but you're a stupid troll. Perhaps you should pull your head
>>>> out of the Chimp's ass? I assume it's up his, because you don't seem
>>>> able to find your own ass with both hands.
>>>>
>>>
>>> you give in to insulting, because I win, you cannot do the math at all,
>>> you just an airhead parrot.
>>>
>>
>> Irony. It's not at all like goldy or silvery.
>
>Airhead Polly Parrot crank. No science at all.
>
Thanks for validating my opinion, dipshit.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | William Mook <mokmedical@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 17:44 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <60b7b760-8141-419f-b184-83382c5ff4ba@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #55787 |
On Saturday, April 9, 2016 at 7:23:49 AM UTC+12, Sergio wrote: > On 4/7/2016 1:51 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > > In sci.physics Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> wrote: > >> In article <ne1iqr$mb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, invalid@invalid.com says... > >>> > >>> On 4/5/2016 6:14 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote: > >>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>> All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and > >>>>>>> growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. .... > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> Bullshit. Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the > >>>> skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best > >>>> technology available at the time. > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> silly boy, > >>> > >>> the moon and mar have NO AIR, NO WATER, NO FOOD, NOTHING but sand and > >>> rocks, and high radiation. > >> > >> Both the moon and Mars have water. Mars has a very thin atmosphere of > >> CO2. Other chemicals, such as oxygen on the moon, can be extracted from > >> the local "soil". No, there are no animals or plants to eat, but the > >> raw materials are definitely there to make them. > >> > >> Jeff > > > > There are no raw materials off the Earth to make Jello. > > > > Sure you can theoretically do all that, all it takes is very large, very > > sophisticated, very heavy, very expensive, and very expensive to transport > > equipment along with a very expensive power system to make it all work. > > > > The key here is the horrendous cost of getting things to the Moon or Mars > > in the first place and that any equipment used there will likely be a > > one off custom design that will come at another huge expense. > > > > > > take O2, how do you extract that from rocks ? The Moon http://www.lpi.usra.edu/publications/books/lunar_sourcebook/pdf/Chapter05.pdf https://www.prl.res.in/~library/Goswami_J%20N_568_2009_abst.pdf Mars http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/release.php?ArticleID=1816 http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2000/pdf/2033.pdf Processing http://web.utk.edu/~lataylor/pub-list/microwave1.pdf http://www.planetary.brown.edu/planetary/geo287/PhobosDeimos/papers/Landis%20(2007)%20Materials%20refining%20on%20the%20Moon.pdf Laser Processing https://goo.gl/12P6IJ I tend to favour laser processing since it doesn't require any special materials, like fluorine, to operate. It is energy intensive, about 40 MJ/kg of rock. > What is needed rate of > production? What does it take ? how much does the O2 plant weigh ? Well, human oxygen consumption, and consumption of all things really, is well defined, http://www.nss.org/settlement/ColoniesInSpace/ http://www.nss.org/settlement/ColoniesInSpace/colonies_chap09.html 2564 grams of food along with 400 grams of water and 686 grams of oxygen are consumed by an adult male each day under normal activity, and as a result, 1936 grams of waste along with 857 grams of CO2 and 857 grams of water vapour, are excreted per day. In terms of oxygen, we have 686 grams of oxygen turning into 857 grams of CO2 and 857 grams of H2O. Of this H2O 63 grams is made from the combination of oxygen with hydrogen in food, 400 grams comes from the conumption of liquids and 394 grams comes from water contained in foods. IN OUT Food 2564 1936 Waste Water 400 857 Water Oxygen 686 857 CO2 Total 3650 3650 Total So, 686 grams of oxygen is produced each day from 857 grams of CO2 and 62 grams of H2O, reversing the chemical reactions that occur in human metabolism. This is done through electrolysis and the sabatier process. 1,402.4 cc of water is broken down into 155.8 grams of hydrogen and 1246.6 grams of oxygen each day by the application of 256 watts of power to an electrolytic cell. 857 grams of CO2 is combined with 155.8 grams of hydrogen to produce 311.6 grams of methane and 701.2 cc of water. The methane is reduced to 233.7 grams of elementa carbon and 77.9 grams of hydrogen by the application of 14 watts of energy to the methane. The hydrogen is combined with 623.3 grams of oxygen to make 701.2 cc of water along with 76 watts of electrical power in a fuel cell. This all balances an requires around 200 Watts of electrical power generated from sunlight. A low mass thin film concentrating collector, produces 22 kW per kg, so a 200 Watt load requires 9 grams of hardware. http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/01/f7/csp_review_meeting_042313_ganapathi.pdf Any closed cycle process that is well defined can be implemented on a wafer on a small scale, to process about a cc of material each day in a postage stamp sized device. These wafers as described previously cost about $1 each in quantity and about $150,000 to reduce to practice, and $1,000,000 to build up the tooling needed for large scale low cost highly reliable production. The core process here is 1,400 cc of water. So, we need about 1400 of these cells, costing about $1400 in quantity, to process the oxygen using this technique. The oxygen (and the wafers themselves) comes from the rocks. They're about 46% of the regolith on both mars and the moon. So, we need to process 2,174 grams of rocks to get 1,000 grams of oxygen. It takes about 45 megajoules to do that with a laser beam, without recovering any of the energy. Basically, you vaporise rocks with laser beams and direct the resulting plasma flow with magnets and electric grids, forming a beam line. You pulse the laser beam to produce pulses of plasma. The lighter stuff moves more quickly, whilst the heavier stuff moves more slowly. You can even cause the beam line to bend spreading things out more finely. The result is a time of flight mass spectrometry, operating at a current density that lets you process sensible amounts of materials. Each watt of laser energy allows you to process 1.92 grams of rock per day. Assuming we hold on to our gases as well as the builders of the Hindenberg did in the 1920s and 30s, we will lose less than 1% of the gases we work with each day. This means we need to add about 20 watts to our processing system to process rocks into oxygen (and other materials like silicon, iron, titanium etc.) which adds about 10% to our power needs and a few grams to our primary collector. > now, where do you get the N2 ? not from rocks... Why not? http://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/lro-lunar-hydrogen http://www.uapress.arizona.edu/onlinebks/ResourcesNearEarthSpace/resources15.pdf http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1017048806952#page-1 Lunar surface generally has 100 micrograms of Nitrogen per gram of soil. It may have substantially more deeper down. We just don't know. Even so, using the figures for the baked out surface we've sampled to date, a 2800 kg per cubic meter 280 grams of nitrogen may be recovered (along with everything else in that cubic meter of material). A square meter of pressurised air at 1 bar atmosphere, contains 951 grams of nitrogen per meter of atmospheric depth. So, each square meter of pressurised surface requires that soil be processed to a depth of 3.40 meters on the moon generally. So, a 5 meter (16.4 ft) average interior height requires proessing rock to a depth of 17 meters. This is 49 tons of rock to be processed per square meter of pressurised space. At 45 MJ per kg this is 2.21 terajoules of energy. Divided by a year this averages 70 kW per square meter for a year. 77 MW per square meter for 8 hours! Now, peak solar intensity on the Moon is 1368 Watts/m2. At 22 kW per kg, we can tell the size and weight of a solar power unit on the moon, that processes 49 tons of materials into useful materials at a rate of 3 square meters per day. This is a 66.8 m (219 ft) diameter dish that masses 3500 kg and is 268 m (878 ft) in diameter. Now, the mass of improvements that are required to maintain human life at a living standard similar to that enjoyed by the people of Monaco, is 10 metric tons per square meter. At 16,000 people per square kilometer, this is 62.5 sq meters per person and 625 metric tons per person. If nitrogen is the limiting factor, and we're limited to the abundances detected on the baked out lunar surface, then the 3500 kg (3.5 metric ton) solar laser system described will take 21 days (three weeks) to produce all that's needed to sustain a person indefinitely at a very high lifestyle. 17 people may be supported after one year. 170 people after 10 years. Now, this limits everything to the rate our solar system can find nitrogen for the atmosphere and the plant life cycle encased in a dome. This is artifically low. That's because the solar pumped laser setup is made of silicon, silicides, aluminium, and so forth, which is in far greater abundance. In fact, the solar collector is the limiting factor, and it can grow at a rate that doubles every 24 hours during periods of solar insolation. So, starting with 3,500 kg or a 77 MW solar collector on the lunar surface which mines enough to support 17 new people per year, and have it focus only on expanding the number of solar collectors, we can double the size each 24 hour period on the moon. 462,500 sq kilometers of colony space is required to support 7.4 billion persons at 16,000 people per sq km - as in Monaco. The moon is 37.9 million square km. 2.8 million sq km of solar collectors at L1 (if on the near side) or L2 (if on the far side) massing 175,000 tonnes. This is required to process this area in 10 years, which masses 4.63 trillion tons. Starting with 3500 kg and doubling every 24 hours means that we achieve this collector size in 16 days. We add 100 people per hour. Of course, processing thorium, uranium, or lithium-6, using fission or fusion reactors, permits more rapid processing, and establishment of an entire base not in 100 years but in 100 days. On Mars things are considerablly easier with respect to nitrogen. That's because nitrogen is freely available in the Martian atmosphere. Something I've written about here; https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20141013141644-39571567-there-s-plenty-of-air-on-mars > what is the rate of water you can get from the vaccuum of moon/mars > surface ? 100 grams per day ? On the moon 100 grams per day requires processing 358 litres of moon rock per day down to its elemental form requiring the use of 520 Watts of power. The solar power plant at a 22 kW per kg specific power output masses 27 grams and covers 0.386 sq m. At 62.5 sq meters per person and a pressure vessel height of 5 meters (16.4 ft) - we have 312.5 cubic meters of air. At 1.22 kg/m3 and 78% nitrogen content, we have 297.37 kg of nitrogen, and 100 grams addition requires 2974 days of processing 8.2 years. This is the lower rate described above. On Mars all you've got to do is pressurise the Mars atmosphere 7082x and freeze out the surplus CO2 and Argon. Continue to pressurise what is left to 209,460x ambient and bleed off the oxygen, to produce an atmosphere similar to that on Eart at 1 bar. This requires less than 10 Watts of power per person to maintain not only nitrogen, but also oxygen and water, extracted from Mars' atmosphere. The 3500 kg station that produces 77 MW on the Moon will produce only 31 MW on Mars. However, this is sufficient to support the atmosphere of a city of 310,000 people. The solar power is less than half, but the energy required to recover useful materials is reduced by more than half - so there is no real issue in either place.
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