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Groups > sci.physics > #567701 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-04-03 12:52 -0400 |
| Last post | 2016-04-12 18:24 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 253 — 15 participants |
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-03 12:52 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-03 17:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-04 15:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-04 18:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Double-A <double-a3@hush.com> - 2016-04-04 12:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 12:58 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jack Ryan <mixmaster@remailer.cpunk.us> - 2016-04-05 03:50 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-05 18:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 16:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-05 18:47 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 00:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-04-07 06:10 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 18:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-08 14:23 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 09:57 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 10:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 00:28 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-05 22:14 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 03:38 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 00:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-04-07 06:24 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:03 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 19:53 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 03:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 23:06 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-07 19:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 13:04 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-07 21:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 00:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 17:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 21:47 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-09 13:55 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 10:08 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 15:19 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 22:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 04:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 01:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 12:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 14:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 08:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 16:40 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 15:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-11 19:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 20:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 21:25 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 23:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:10 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:40 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:11 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-09 00:01 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Womack <twomack@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-04-09 09:21 +0100
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 15:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 09:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 14:22 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 10:45 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 19:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:41 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-06 17:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 12:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:28 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 23:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 10:09 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:31 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:42 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-07 15:55 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 14:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:19 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:47 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-09 18:17 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 00:37 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-10 16:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-11 16:41 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-12 15:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-05 17:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-05 18:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 15:09 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-05 18:54 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 19:57 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-06 17:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 15:43 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 20:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 16:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 23:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 19:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 03:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 22:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 06:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 12:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 00:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:45 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:12 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 04:43 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 22:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 17:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 04:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 23:31 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 01:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:18 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 22:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:19 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:57 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:44 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 20:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 23:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 04:42 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-07 16:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:43 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 01:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:19 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 23:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 05:49 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:10 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 21:03 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:27 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:27 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-07 21:40 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 15:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 19:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 21:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 17:37 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 08:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-10 17:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 17:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 05:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 01:43 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-11 16:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Rick Jones <rick.jones2@hpe.com> - 2016-04-11 18:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-12 15:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:12 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:24 +0000
Page 2 of 13 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 … 13 Next page →
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-06 00:07 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <l4d9gbd9lgupq29j4muavomosib6gecl06@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #568157 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Jack Ryan <mixmaster@remailer.cpunk.us> wrote:
>>>> In article <1poatc-pc1.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>>>>> > For your reference, records indicate that
>>>>> > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> > Actually we could start building it as soon as the Falcon Heavy becomes
>>>>> >> > operational:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > NASA scientists say we could colonise the Moon by 2022... for just $10
>>>>> >> > billion.
>>>>> >> > What are we waiting for?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> $10 billion without a better purpose?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Some might argue that blowing up shit in the Middle East is not a
>>>>> > better purpose. A more pointed question would be whether or not that
>>>>> > budget and timeline is actually accurate, or if it won?t be more like
>>>>> > $200 billion spent and a wait until 2035.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Some rational reason to "colonise" the moon, which will never happen
>>>>> >> as no Moon colony could ever be self supporting.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > History has shown a pretty big halo effect for such projects, so I
>>>>> > would expect quite a bit of indirect economic value in new Moon and
>>>>> > Mars missions. But I would agree that NASA would do well to make a
>>>>> > more direct case for why a Moon colony would be a valuable resource
>>>>> > to have.
>>>>>
>>>>> All historical colonizations have been to places with air, water, and
>>>>> growing things where one could be dropped nude and survive. ....
>>>>
>>>> Iceland? Greenland? Northern Newfundland?
>>>>
>>>> Hell, for much of Europe surviving after being dropped nude in the
>>>> Winter is not likely.
>>>>
>>>> If the Pilgrims had landed at Plymouth bare assed in the Winter
>>>> they would probably not have survived long.
>>>>
>>>> You might want to amend your statement about all historical
>>>> colonies.
>>>>
>>>
>>>OK, dropped in with nothing more than a heavy winter coat.
>>>
>>
>> Colonies with insufficient support from 'back home' tended to
>> disappear. You talk like all colonization attempts are easily
>> successful. There are enough failed colonies to prove that to be
>> bullshit.
>>
>
>I never said anything like that.
>
Of course you did.
>
>However, support from 'back home' wasn't oxygen, food, water, and
>repair parts for high tech equipment.
>
Lots of that last one so that they could do those first three. Just
like what a modern colony would require.
>
>For the most part it was luxury items such as good china before such
>manufacturing could be established in the colonies.
>
You mean that 'high tech equipment. That wasn't 'luxuries' and
colonies that didn't get it tended to fail.
>
>In return the colonies, depending on where they were, sent back things
>like spices, precious metals, furs, and timber.
>
Mostly Spanish and French colonies were like that. There's a reason
why those tended to fail and North American is largely derived from
English colonies which didn't behave that way.
Pleased to see that Jimp the Chimp hasn't changed over the years....
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
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| From | Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 06:24 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.316fff733ac66c419899a8@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #568157 |
In article <nq1etc-hec.ln1@mail.specsol.com>, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com says... > > Colonies with insufficient support from 'back home' tended to > > disappear. You talk like all colonization attempts are easily > > successful. There are enough failed colonies to prove that to be > > bullshit. > > I never said anything like that. > > However, support from 'back home' wasn't oxygen, food, water, and > repair parts for high tech equipment. Water is available on both the moon and Mars at at least one of the poles on each. Oxygen is also available on both the moon and Mars; it just needs to be extracted. Food can therefore be grown. Repair parts for high tech equipment is exactly the sort of thing that Fred is talking about when he says "support". For early earth colonies, things which are difficult to manufacture locally, like anything made of metal, had to be shipped in, unless there was a readily available source of metal at the colony and all of the tools to smelt and then process and work with it. > For the most part it was luxury items such as good china before such > manufacturing could be established in the colonies. > > In return the colonies, depending on where they were, sent back things > like spices, precious metals, furs, and timber. > Agreed that this pattern would often continue with even well established colonies. The colony would mostly ship back raw materials, or goods easily manufactured locally, and the "old world" would send the colony finished "hard" goods. > There is nothing off the Earth so valuable it would be worth the > shipping cost in fuel to send it back to Earth. Depends. If the fuel is largely made locally (on the moon or Mars), the cost is local too. It may be more difficult to extract, but the supply (the entire planet or moon) versus demand (a fledgling colony) would be quite favorable. > >>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century > >>technology to survive. > >> > > > > Bullshit. Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the > > skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best > > technology available at the time. > > And that technology, except for a very few things like muskets, dates > back to at least the 10th Century. Most certainly, but even that early tech (e.g. metal knives, axes, and etc) would be quite difficult to manufacture at many early colonies which may lack readily available raw materials (e.g. iron ore right on the surface). > And, BTW, the indigious populations where most colonies where established > were surviving just fine on Stone Age technology long before the Europeans > appeared. "Just fine" is a stretch, depending on the technological level of the indigenous populations. (Primitive) technologies like farming and domestication and selective breeding of animals *greatly* increased the potential population density of even indigenous populations. Jeff -- All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone. These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends, employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 19:03 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <tgnitc-mir.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #568523 |
In sci.physics Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> wrote: > In article <nq1etc-hec.ln1@mail.specsol.com>, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com > says... >> > Colonies with insufficient support from 'back home' tended to >> > disappear. You talk like all colonization attempts are easily >> > successful. There are enough failed colonies to prove that to be >> > bullshit. >> >> I never said anything like that. >> >> However, support from 'back home' wasn't oxygen, food, water, and >> repair parts for high tech equipment. > > Water is available on both the moon and Mars at at least one of the > poles on each. Oxygen is also available on both the moon and Mars; it > just needs to be extracted. Food can therefore be grown. Sure, all this is theoretically posible at a horrendous cost that no one will ever want to finance. > Repair parts for high tech equipment is exactly the sort of thing that > Fred is talking about when he says "support". For early earth colonies, > things which are difficult to manufacture locally, like anything made of > metal, had to be shipped in, unless there was a readily available source > of metal at the colony and all of the tools to smelt and then process > and work with it. Repair parts take more than metal. Concider all the bits and pieces needed to make something as simple as a relay to control a blower motor. You need several different kinds of metal and alloys as well as wire and insulators. >> For the most part it was luxury items such as good china before such >> manufacturing could be established in the colonies. >> >> In return the colonies, depending on where they were, sent back things >> like spices, precious metals, furs, and timber. >> > > Agreed that this pattern would often continue with even well established > colonies. The colony would mostly ship back raw materials, or goods > easily manufactured locally, and the "old world" would send the colony > finished "hard" goods. > >> There is nothing off the Earth so valuable it would be worth the >> shipping cost in fuel to send it back to Earth. > > Depends. If the fuel is largely made locally (on the moon or Mars), the > cost is local too. It may be more difficult to extract, but the supply > (the entire planet or moon) versus demand (a fledgling colony) would be > quite favorable. Cost is cost no matter where it comes from and again, there is nothing off the Earth so valuable it would be worth the shipping cost. >> >>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century >> >>technology to survive. >> >> >> > >> > Bullshit. Lots of colonies in the New World succeeded only by the >> > skin of their teeth and lots of them failed and they all had the best >> > technology available at the time. >> >> And that technology, except for a very few things like muskets, dates >> back to at least the 10th Century. > > Most certainly, but even that early tech (e.g. metal knives, axes, and > etc) would be quite difficult to manufacture at many early colonies > which may lack readily available raw materials (e.g. iron ore right on > the surface). Totally misses the point; the colonies could buy such things until local production was establishe with things like timber, fur, and spices. >> And, BTW, the indigious populations where most colonies where established >> were surviving just fine on Stone Age technology long before the Europeans >> appeared. > > "Just fine" is a stretch, depending on the technological level of the > indigenous populations. (Primitive) technologies like farming and > domestication and selective breeding of animals *greatly* increased the > potential population density of even indigenous populations. Point missed yet again. The indigenous populations were able to live, in some cases for thousands of years, without any resupply from Europe. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 19:53 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <dmj8haFnrsnU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #568068 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century >technology to survive. Try reading "Collapse" some time. Greenland, f'rex. A fair number of the Pacific islands. -- We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-06 03:42 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <q5detc-5hd.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #568170 |
In sci.physics Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century >>technology to survive. > > Try reading "Collapse" some time. Greenland, f'rex. A fair number of > the Pacific islands. Greenland has been populated to varying degrees for over 4,000 years. All but the smallest Pacific islands were populated by people with Stone Age technology. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 23:06 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <dmjjq0Fqd26U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #568185 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >In sci.physics Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> wrote: >> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >> >>>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century >>>technology to survive. >> >> Try reading "Collapse" some time. Greenland, f'rex. A fair number of >> the Pacific islands. > >Greenland has been populated to varying degrees for over 4,000 years. But the Viking colony failed. >All but the smallest Pacific islands were populated by people with Stone >Age technology. And a fair number of those colonies failed. -- We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-06 18:05 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <dnvftc-moi.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #568194 |
In sci.physics Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century >>>>technology to survive. >>> >>> Try reading "Collapse" some time. Greenland, f'rex. A fair number of >>> the Pacific islands. >> >>Greenland has been populated to varying degrees for over 4,000 years. > > But the Viking colony failed. Which one over the over 4,000 years of habitation? >>All but the smallest Pacific islands were populated by people with Stone >>Age technology. > > And a fair number of those colonies failed. No colony on Earth ever failed for lack of oxygen. Very few failed for lack of water. A fair number in less warm climates failed for lack of storing food for the winter. A few failed due to hostile indigenous people. All this is irrelevant. Attempting to compare any colony on the Earth to a colony off the Earth is starry eyed nonsense. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-06 12:34 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <jnnagbhj5de3chapk06jgrn50te0tlseu9@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #568341 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>
>No colony on Earth ever failed for lack of oxygen.
>
>Very few failed for lack of water.
>
>A fair number in less warm climates failed for lack of storing food for
>the winter.
>
>A few failed due to hostile indigenous people.
>
So now you care what you die from? We've found water both on the Moon
and on Mars. Oxygen isn't that difficult a problem, either, given an
oven to bake it out of rocks.
>
>All this is irrelevant.
>
>Attempting to compare any colony on the Earth to a colony off the Earth
>is starry eyed nonsense.
>
Colonies always need supply and support initially. Colonies off the
Earth will be no different.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
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| From | Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 19:18 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ne6bpd$k90$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de> |
| In reply to | #568362 |
Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb: > Colonies always need supply and support initially. Colonies off the > Earth will be no different. The main problem I see for space coloies is the complexity of the technology that is needed for survival, if spare parts cannot be imported. Take a simple O-ring used as a seal as as an example. Currently, this is made from an elastomer. If it needs to withstand oil, you will probably need NBR, a rubber made from 1-3-Butadiene and Acrylonitrile. So, you need 1-3-Butadiene. You can get that from a C4 stream coming from a steam cracker, which needs a hydrocarbon feedstock and is an enormously complex chemical plant, requiring catalysts and dozens of distillation columns. To separate it from the other C4 products, you usually use a sulfuric acid extraction. A steam cracker also produces dozens of other products, which you will have to dispose of (wasteful) or use (for what?) Hmm... maybe not that, dehydrogenation of n-Butane may be better. Dehydrogenation catalyst needed, typically Platinum. To get n-Butane, you need a steam cracker. Or maybe dehydrogenate Ethanol (a catalytic reaction, of course). OK, let's assume we have Butadiene. Next, we need acrylonitrile, which is made from Propylene and Ammonia. Propylene you get from that steam cracker (see above). Ammonia manufacture is a high-pressure process requiring nitrogen and hydrogen. Nitrogen on the Moon will be hard to get, on Mars it could be done. Because NBR is made by emulsion polymerization, you need emulsifiers (and water). Emulsifiers are basically soap, so please set up your soap factory somewhere. Now you've got the basic polymer, please also set up your plants for making all the additives which make it into a usable rubber. And set up the plants for making the catalysts that the different processes above require. You can't really use the latex produced in the polymerizaion, so please use your ready-made plant for precipitation and washing of the latex and drying (which could involve both a screw and a dryer). Think of a way to deal with the huge amount of waste water this will generate, and don't forget the Polyethylene film to wrap it in. Now you've got your rubber bale, but it is not yet an O-Ring. You need to compound and vulcanize it. Just grabbing a random recipe from the net, please also have ready your Zinc Oxide, Magnesium oxide, Stearic acid, Styrenated Phenol, Benzothiazol Disulfide (an accelerator), Tetramethyl Thiuram Disulfide (another accelerator), Carbon Black, Sulfur and Dioctyl phtalate. Also put some old motor oil in, and Add a few anti-aging and anti-oxydizing chemicals while you're at it. And this is just to make one simple everyday part that you could order for a few cents on Earth. So, is there a way around this? You can try to restrict yourself to the materials that you really, really need. This will mean that your solutions will be much worse than what you could get on Earth by just ordering the products you needed. I am not sure that this will be easy given the harshness of your environment, where your solutions should be good if you want to survive. So, a self-sufficient space colony would have to be quite large to support something like our technological base.
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 13:04 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <p4fdgbd35tfptkdmt71p337b7klalq3khc@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #568643 |
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>
>> Colonies always need supply and support initially. Colonies off the
>> Earth will be no different.
>
>The main problem I see for space coloies is the complexity of the
>technology that is needed for survival, if spare parts cannot be
>imported.
>
Baby steps, Tom. Baby steps.
>
>Take a simple O-ring used as a seal as as an example.
>
>Currently, this is made from an elastomer. If it needs to
>withstand oil, you will probably need NBR, a rubber made from
>1-3-Butadiene and Acrylonitrile.
>
>So, you need 1-3-Butadiene.
>
<snip petrochemical description>
Or instead of cracking down complex hydrocarbons you don't have, you
build up what you need out of the pieces. Please read up on in situ
resource utilization.
--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw
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| From | Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 21:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ne6i6a$nua$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de> |
| In reply to | #568665 |
Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb: > Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote: > >>Take a simple O-ring used as a seal as as an example. >> >>Currently, this is made from an elastomer. If it needs to >>withstand oil, you will probably need NBR, a rubber made from >>1-3-Butadiene and Acrylonitrile. >> >>So, you need 1-3-Butadiene. ><snip petrochemical description> > > Or instead of cracking down complex hydrocarbons you don't have, you > build up what you need out of the pieces. Please read up on in situ > resource utilization. What in situ resources could I use on the Moon (or Mars) to make an O-ring capable of withstanding oil?
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 00:03 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <urlegb1dhlhgu1e19cl6a17cvlro16bhr6@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #568703 |
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>
>>>Take a simple O-ring used as a seal as as an example.
>>>
>>>Currently, this is made from an elastomer. If it needs to
>>>withstand oil, you will probably need NBR, a rubber made from
>>>1-3-Butadiene and Acrylonitrile.
>>>
>>>So, you need 1-3-Butadiene.
>
>><snip petrochemical description>
>>
>> Or instead of cracking down complex hydrocarbons you don't have, you
>> build up what you need out of the pieces. Please read up on in situ
>> resource utilization.
>
>What in situ resources could I use on the Moon (or Mars) to make an
>O-ring capable of withstanding oil?
>
Chemistry is chemistry. Please go follow the link on in situ organic
chemicals I gave the Chimp.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
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| From | Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 17:50 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ne8r1e$7gv$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de> |
| In reply to | #568831 |
Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb: > Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote: > >>Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb: [Making an NBR O-ring] >>> Or instead of cracking down complex hydrocarbons you don't have, you >>> build up what you need out of the pieces. Please read up on in situ >>> resource utilization. >> >>What in situ resources could I use on the Moon (or Mars) to make an >>O-ring capable of withstanding oil? >> > Chemistry is chemistry. I agree with you there. > Please go follow the link on in situ organic chemicals I gave the Chimp. I'm not sure what link you refer to. Can you give a quick outline how to do all the chemicals I mentioned in my article? We don't have to do this the exact way we do it on Earth. However, the complexidy will not be less with a different raw material base.
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 13:03 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ee3ggbp12f1btaph1eqi5vdt0icfdtd7bp@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #569000 |
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>
>>>Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>
>[Making an NBR O-ring]
>
>>>> Or instead of cracking down complex hydrocarbons you don't have, you
>>>> build up what you need out of the pieces. Please read up on in situ
>>>> resource utilization.
>>>
>>>What in situ resources could I use on the Moon (or Mars) to make an
>>>O-ring capable of withstanding oil?
>>>
>
>> Chemistry is chemistry.
>
>I agree with you there.
>
>> Please go follow the link on in situ organic chemicals I gave the Chimp.
>
>I'm not sure what link you refer to.
>
http://chapters.marssociety.org/winnipeg/plastics.html
>
>Can you give a quick outline how to do all the chemicals I mentioned
>in my article?
>
>We don't have to do this the exact way we do it on Earth. However,
>the complexidy will not be less with a different raw material base.
>
This will be more complicated and more 'expensive' than on Earth,
since you don't have the complex hydrocarbon feedstock on Mars. But,
as the link points out, "You can make every plastic available on Earth
from resources on Mars. Most plastics are hydrocarbon polymers, made
from water and air using electricity. Other plastics require chlorine
from salt, or nitrogen from air. Fluoropolymers are extremely strong,
durable, endure temperatures much colder than the coldest day at the
south pole of Mars in winter, immune to any form of acid or alkali
you'll find in the soil, highly resistant to strong UV, and light.
Common fluoropolymers are Teflon and Goretex, but they all require
fluorine. Unfortunately we haven't found fluorine on Mars yet. We can
look at other plastics until we find it."
--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw
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| From | Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 21:47 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ne98sv$hhg$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de> |
| In reply to | #569064 |
Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb: > This will be more complicated and more 'expensive' than on Earth, > since you don't have the complex hydrocarbon feedstock on Mars. But, > as the link points out, "You can make every plastic available on Earth > from resources on Mars. Sure. The main question is how much complexity this entails, and how many people and what sort of technological organization this needs for a colony to work. Suppose that the US could (at least in principle) be self-sufficient in chemical goods. Look at http://selectusa.commerce.gov/industry-snapshots/chemical-industry-united-states The industry’s more than 10,000 firms produce more than 70,000 products. In 2012, the U.S. chemicals industry had sales of $769.4 billion and directly employed more than 784,000 workers, with additional indirect employment by industry suppliers of more than 2.7 million. Here are some employment figures from http://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iag325.htm : Chemical equipment operators and tenders 54,020 Chemical technicians 20,350 Chemists 27,350 Mixing and blending machine setters, operators, and tenders 55,330 Packaging and filling machine operators and tenders 49,710 So, divide this by a factor of 10 or 50 for making fewer products and for having no competition. This would still mean that several thousand of people would be needed. So, a few thousand people would be required at least for this. Pharmaceutical industry in the US employs a few more people than chemical industy (which, of course, they heavily rely on). And so on...
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 21:24 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7r0hgb9atljgmlmnbv9puperdn14g5targ@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #569088 |
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>
>> This will be more complicated and more 'expensive' than on Earth,
>> since you don't have the complex hydrocarbon feedstock on Mars. But,
>> as the link points out, "You can make every plastic available on Earth
>> from resources on Mars.
>
>Sure.
>
>The main question is how much complexity this entails, and how
>many people and what sort of technological organization this needs
>for a colony to work.
>
<snip irrelevancies>
So what you've shown is that it's exactly what I claim; incremental
growth as you go. You're not independent on Day 1. You get that way
as you grow and add capability. If it's cheaper to ship, you ship. If
it's cheaper to make, you make. Industry makes these decisions all
the time here on Earth. Why would Mars be different?
--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw
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| From | Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 13:55 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <neb1kr$jok$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de> |
| In reply to | #569133 |
Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb: > Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote: > >>Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb: >> >>> This will be more complicated and more 'expensive' than on Earth, >>> since you don't have the complex hydrocarbon feedstock on Mars. But, >>> as the link points out, "You can make every plastic available on Earth >>> from resources on Mars. >> >>Sure. >> >>The main question is how much complexity this entails, and how >>many people and what sort of technological organization this needs >>for a colony to work. >> > ><snip irrelevancies> Not quite irrelevant, it shows that you need thousands of people working in the proposed Mars chemical industry alone to be able to make simple parts we take for granted here. > So what you've shown is that it's exactly what I claim; incremental > growth as you go. You're not independent on Day 1. You get that way > as you grow and add capability. If it's cheaper to ship, you ship. If > it's cheaper to make, you make. Industry makes these decisions all > the time here on Earth. Why would Mars be different? I would tend to concur in principle. In practice, the size of population you need to be even approach self-sustainability is quite large. The example above is for the chemical industry only. Multiply this by a none-too-small factor for other relevant industries (metals, electrical, computers etc). Other people will have to grow food, repair habitats, build machine tools, make drugs, mine resources, make (pharmaceutical) drugs, be doctors, teachers, nurses, hairdressers, make implements for daily life, ... You'll need a at least few hundred thousand people to get a mostly self-sufficient colony going, and you will need to supply them while the aren't yet self-sufficient.
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| From | Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 10:08 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <neb5v9$f5e$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #569213 |
On 4/9/2016 8:55 AM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>>>
>>>> This will be more complicated and more 'expensive' than on Earth,
>>>> since you don't have the complex hydrocarbon feedstock on Mars. But,
>>>> as the link points out, "You can make every plastic available on Earth
>>>> from resources on Mars.
>>>
>>> Sure.
>>>
>>> The main question is how much complexity this entails, and how
>>> many people and what sort of technological organization this needs
>>> for a colony to work.
>>>
>>
>> <snip irrelevancies>
>
> Not quite irrelevant, it shows that you need thousands of people
> working in the proposed Mars chemical industry alone to be able
> to make simple parts we take for granted here.
>
>> So what you've shown is that it's exactly what I claim; incremental
>> growth as you go. You're not independent on Day 1. You get that way
>> as you grow and add capability. If it's cheaper to ship, you ship. If
>> it's cheaper to make, you make. Industry makes these decisions all
>> the time here on Earth. Why would Mars be different?
>
> I would tend to concur in principle. In practice, the size of
> population you need to be even approach self-sustainability is
> quite large.
>
> The example above is for the chemical industry only. Multiply this
> by a none-too-small factor for other relevant industries (metals,
> electrical, computers etc). Other people will have to grow food,
> repair habitats, build machine tools, make drugs, mine resources,
> make (pharmaceutical) drugs, be doctors, teachers, nurses,
> hairdressers, make implements for daily life, ...
>
> You'll need a at least few hundred thousand people to get a mostly
> self-sufficient colony going, and you will need to supply them
> while the aren't yet self-sufficient.
>
Air, Water ??
try to think it through.
man needs 500 liters of O2 per day
there are 10 men up there, 2 are needed to run the O2 plant, and 2
are needed to run the Water plant, and 2 are needed to run the N2 plant.
so your O2 flow rate is 5,000 liters per day,
your N2 flow rate is 15,000 liters per day (assume a 25% O2)
and about 7.5 liters of water per day per person
so how many tons rocks do you cook per day ?
How much energy is needed to run the rock cooking plant?
What type of rocks work for O2 that are on the surface ?
where do you get 24 liters of water per day ? (assume a 25% recapture rate)
Biofilm questions: where does the lost water go? will the biofilm cause
dammage to the electronics? How much energy is used to keep the
Humidity down to below 70% ?
how do you reprocess the salt bath used for cooking the rocks ?
What rocks do you cook to get N2 ???
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 08:51 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <8p6igbp9l689a90nn5j9aokipoauuskk65@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #569213 |
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>
>>>Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>>>
>>>> This will be more complicated and more 'expensive' than on Earth,
>>>> since you don't have the complex hydrocarbon feedstock on Mars. But,
>>>> as the link points out, "You can make every plastic available on Earth
>>>> from resources on Mars.
>>>
>>>Sure.
>>>
>>>The main question is how much complexity this entails, and how
>>>many people and what sort of technological organization this needs
>>>for a colony to work.
>>>
>>
>><snip irrelevancies>
>
>Not quite irrelevant, it shows that you need thousands of people
>working in the proposed Mars chemical industry alone to be able
>to make simple parts we take for granted here.
>
Or you'd have more automated equipment because people are more
expensive. Or you teleoperate. But yes, TOTAL self-sufficiency
(which we don't have in the United States, by the way) takes more than
a dozen people. Incremental steps...
>> So what you've shown is that it's exactly what I claim; incremental
>> growth as you go. You're not independent on Day 1. You get that way
>> as you grow and add capability. If it's cheaper to ship, you ship. If
>> it's cheaper to make, you make. Industry makes these decisions all
>> the time here on Earth. Why would Mars be different?
>
>I would tend to concur in principle. In practice, the size of
>population you need to be even approach self-sustainability is
>quite large.
>
>The example above is for the chemical industry only. Multiply this
>by a none-too-small factor for other relevant industries (metals,
>electrical, computers etc). Other people will have to grow food,
>repair habitats, build machine tools, make drugs, mine resources,
>make (pharmaceutical) drugs, be doctors, teachers, nurses,
>hairdressers, make implements for daily life, ...
>
>You'll need a at least few hundred thousand people to get a mostly
>self-sufficient colony going, and you will need to supply them
>while the aren't yet self-sufficient.
>
How did you arrive at that number of people? How much did you assume
was automated and/or being produced by something like a 3D printer?
None of this is magical technology. We use more people-intensive
processes here because people are cheaper. As people become more
expensive, they tend to be replaced by capital (machinery). Jimp
thinks you need billions of people (300,000 (Pittsburgh) isn't enough)
and the entire output of planet Earth. You've settled at around 2/3
the size of Pittsburgh. I don't claim to know the number, but would
put it up in at least the thousands. Elon Musk doesn't set a number
where it's magically a 'colony' but projects that Mars population hits
1 million sometime around 2070 (it'll probably be later than that by a
decade or two). Like any sane approach, he starts with mere handfuls
of people and incrementally grows (unlike the Jimp the Chimp approach
that requires instantaneous millions).
And just how 'self sufficient' does a colony have to be in order to be
a 'colony'? Remember, we used to ship shirts to China to have them
laundered and still ship scrap (plastic and steel) there to get it
recycled and shipped back to us. Jimp the Chimp insists that it's not
a colony unless it is totally self-sufficient at a quality of life
similar to a rich suburb in Connecticut with a population of billions.
I think the bar is much lower both in quality of life and numbers; a
relatively small population (hundreds) that can manage survival
through an extended interruption in resupply is a 'colony' for me. My
definition is closer to the classical Earthbound definition, where
colonies failed due to interruptions in supplies from back home.
--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 18:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <c0tntc-2gf.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #569231 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > And just how 'self sufficient' does a colony have to be in order to be > a 'colony'? Remember, we used to ship shirts to China to have them > laundered and still ship scrap (plastic and steel) there to get it > recycled and shipped back to us. Jimp the Chimp insists that it's not > a colony unless it is totally self-sufficient at a quality of life > similar to a rich suburb in Connecticut with a population of billions. > I think the bar is much lower both in quality of life and numbers; a > relatively small population (hundreds) that can manage survival > through an extended interruption in resupply is a 'colony' for me. My > definition is closer to the classical Earthbound definition, where > colonies failed due to interruptions in supplies from back home. There go those voices in your head again, space cadet. A colony is not a true colony unless it has families with kids that voluntarily joined the colony and intend to spend their lives there. A colony is not self sufficient until the members can survive without resupply. Survival in the New World meant you had to build shelter, find water, and plant crops. The things that usually caused failure in the New World were lack of proper attention to the above, disease, attacks by indigenous people, who by the way were not resupplied by Europe, and attacks from other European nation states. -- Jim Pennino
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