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Groups > sci.physics > #702875 > unrolled thread
| Started by | john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2018-09-15 14:55 -0700 |
| Last post | 2018-09-20 09:34 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 99 — 10 participants |
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Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-15 14:55 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Stakos Netakis <autp@wsalaw.oa> - 2018-09-15 21:57 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-15 15:23 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-09-16 01:40 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-16 06:28 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-09-16 15:24 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-16 02:33 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-16 05:59 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-16 13:14 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-16 07:50 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-09-16 15:31 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-16 09:09 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-16 19:23 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-16 12:29 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-16 19:35 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 05:47 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 12:59 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 06:16 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 16:43 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-09-17 16:50 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 11:34 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 18:38 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 12:05 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-09-17 14:17 -0500
Re: Fractal radiations benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 15:53 -0400
Re: Fractal radiations Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-09-17 18:01 -0500
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 16:03 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 16:08 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 23:22 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 18:59 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-18 02:40 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-09-18 11:29 -0500
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-18 09:44 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-09-18 14:08 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-09-18 14:10 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-09-18 18:08 -0400
Re: Fractal radiations moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-09-18 17:18 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-18 10:22 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-09-18 18:03 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-18 11:57 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-09-18 19:17 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-18 13:12 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-09-17 18:09 -0500
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 21:24 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-09-17 15:07 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 22:16 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-09-17 15:22 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 15:27 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 23:16 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 22:27 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-09-17 15:38 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-09-17 21:28 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-09-18 14:11 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-18 14:28 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-09-18 15:54 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-18 02:42 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-09-17 22:42 -0500
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-18 05:47 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-18 12:49 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-18 13:06 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-18 06:23 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-18 14:30 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-18 08:14 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-18 16:22 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-09-18 18:24 -0400
Re: Fractal radiations moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-09-18 17:17 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations pnalsing@gmail.com - 2018-09-18 21:06 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-19 06:58 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-19 08:50 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-19 17:12 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-19 12:46 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-19 22:22 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-19 16:14 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-09-19 23:40 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-19 17:25 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-20 00:43 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-19 18:41 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-20 14:35 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-20 14:48 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-20 08:05 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-20 08:24 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-20 22:14 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-20 17:10 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations pnalsing@gmail.com - 2018-09-20 17:55 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-20 18:09 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-21 03:33 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-09-20 15:42 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-20 09:09 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-09-20 16:59 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-21 06:19 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-21 14:55 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-09-21 08:23 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-21 16:09 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-09-20 00:43 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-09-17 16:47 +0000
Re: Fractal radiations Mutt Buncher <invalid@example.com> - 2018-09-19 08:07 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-09-19 12:26 -0400
Re: Fractal radiations "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-09-19 23:54 -0700
Re: Fractal radiations "reber G=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2018-09-20 09:34 -0700
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| From | john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-15 14:55 -0700 |
| Subject | Fractal radiations |
| Message-ID | <3e3a8e68-5062-4ba0-abec-9a3022f1ee8d@googlegroups.com> |
In the Galaxy Model for the Atom, electrons emit the next-gauge emr; the Fractal photons and Fractal neutrinos. The Fractal photons create the electric field, while the Fractal neutrinos create the gravitational field.
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| From | Stakos Netakis <autp@wsalaw.oa> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-15 21:57 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <pnjv94$1eus$2@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #702875 |
john wrote: > In the Galaxy Model for the Atom, electrons emit the next-gauge emr; the > Fractal photons and Fractal neutrinos. The Fractal photons create the > electric field, while the Fractal neutrinos create the gravitational > field. You must be fractal stupid then, since there are no gravitational fields in relativity.
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| From | john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-15 15:23 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <26d7c04f-eb04-413f-94cc-d93a67d689c7@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #702876 |
Stamps “You must be fractal stupid then, since there are no gravitational fields in relativity. ” In reality, gravity is very real, and is a net flow of Fractal neutrinos
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| From | moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-16 01:40 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <pnkcah$f2c$1@pcls7.std.com> |
| In reply to | #702875 |
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes: >In the Galaxy Model for the Atom, electrons emit the next-gauge emr; the >Fractal photons and Fractal neutrinos. The Fractal photons create the >electric field, while the Fractal neutrinos create the gravitational >field. 100% USDA Grade "A" Word Salad.
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| From | john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-16 06:28 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <79c67eee-f4b8-42c1-8739-9f59cd54870c@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #702903 |
MM “ 100% USDA Grade "A" Word” MM you have your head firmly in the sand. Atoms and galaxies are similar at all scales. They both have super-dense, super-small centres. They are both ‘mostly empty’, but contain structures with periodicity. We know stars emit photons and neutrinos. We know electrons create an electric field and something to account for gravity would be nice. We see AGNs give off jets. We energize coils to produce magnetism. Shouldn’t a turning circle of electrons create a magnetic field? Then if that is precessed, you will have an electric dipole. All atoms should then be dipoles. All atoms ARE dipoles. They are potential dipoles. The circle of electrons is exactly balanced by a turning circle of protons, in a neutral atom, so when there are the same number of electrons and protons, there is no dipole. But, as soon as there is an excess or a deficit of electrons, the atom will have a dipole, because it has essentially become a spinning magnet. All atoms are spinning magnets.
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| From | moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-16 15:24 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <pnlsk4$2nv$1@pcls7.std.com> |
| In reply to | #702943 |
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes: >MM >" >100% USDA Grade "A" Word [Salad]" >MM you have your head firmly in the sand. >Atoms and galaxies are similar at all scales. No, they are not. Also, "all scales" is wrong, as Odd pointed out there are ~30 orders of magnitude between atoms and galaxies, and things in between resemble neither electrons nor galaxies. >We know electrons create an electric field They are disturbances in the electric field. The electric field is essentially part of spacetime, not "created" by anything. > and something to account for gravity would be nice. Already done. >Shouldn't a turning circle of electrons create a magnetic field? Electric charges moving circularly does produce a magnetic field, but how is that relevant. >Then if that is precessed, With what external torque? (and why??) > you will have an electric dipole. Why do you say that? (Scientific explanation, please, not word salad) > All atoms should then be dipoles. Non sequitur. >All atoms ARE dipoles. No. (I'm not sure ANY individual atoms are electric dipoles) > They are potential dipoles. The circle of electrons is exactly balanced >by a turning circle of protons, in a neutral atom, so when there are the >same number of electrons and protons, there is no dipole. But, as soon >as there is an excess or a deficit of electrons, the atom will have a >dipole, because it has essentially become a spinning magnet. Babbling word salad. >All atoms are spinning magnets. Wrong. Look up diamagnetism, paramagnetism and ferromagnetism.
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| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-16 02:33 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <pnkfef$7kp$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #702875 |
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> wrote: > In the Galaxy Model for the Atom, electrons emit the next-gauge emr; the > Fractal photons and Fractal neutrinos. The Fractal photons create the > electric field, while the Fractal neutrinos create the gravitational field. > Just cant help yourself, can you, John. Fractal is a word that just sounds too cool to not use. Who cares what it means. -- Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
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| From | john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-16 05:59 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c29835e1-fbaa-4ce4-b954-b56f1aecc657@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #702905 |
Odd “John. Fractal is a word that just sounds too cool to not use. Who cares what it means.” It means self similar at all scales. Atoms and galaxies are that. Atom= galaxy Galactic arm = electron Galactic accretion disc = developing photon Galactic jet = magnetic pole Starlight = electric field Black hole = proton All scales. Fractal
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| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-16 13:14 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <pnll0g$1uf7$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #702939 |
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> wrote: > Odd > “John. Fractal is a word that just sounds > too cool to not use. Who cares what it means.” > It means self similar at all scales. > Atoms and galaxies are that. > Atom= galaxy ALL scales. Not two scales separated by thirty orders of magnitude. What about this do you not understand? > Galactic arm = electron > Galactic accretion disc = developing photon > Galactic jet = magnetic pole > Starlight = electric field > Black hole = proton > > All scales. > Fractal > -- Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
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| From | john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-16 07:50 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7005401b-5e20-422e-bc04-2f4738a52cf7@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #702941 |
Odd “ALL scales. Not two scales separated by thirty orders of magnitude. What about this do you not understand? ” Atoms and galaxies are exactly the same. What is it about this that you don’t get? What are you even squawking about? Look over your shoulder- DM just went down for the count.
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| From | moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-16 15:31 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <pnlt04$2nv$2@pcls7.std.com> |
| In reply to | #702947 |
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes: >Odd >"ALL scales. Not two scales separated by thirty orders of magnitude. What >about this do you not understand? >" >Atoms and galaxies are exactly the same. No, they are not. >What is it about this that you don't get? Odd didn't partake of the same wacky tabacky from "Little Pharma". So he didn't get to share your hallucinations. >What are you even squawking about? Science. >Look over your shoulder- DM just went down for the count. That was two years ago, hardly anything heard since. Besides, if there really is a better model for galaxy mass distribution, that's better for the standard model than one requiring DM, since many people (such as yourself) consider DM to be a hack afterthought, even though it really isn't (just invisible heavy stuff).
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| From | john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-16 09:09 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c0a28d82-1ec4-47e2-af5a-176697ea4194@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #702952 |
MM “people (such as yourself) consider DM to be a hack afterthought, even though it really isn't (just invisible heavy stuff)” Hahaha Standard Model is shown to be wrong, here, bro. You don’t get that?
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| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-16 19:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <pnmajk$146i$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #702947 |
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> wrote: > Odd > “ALL scales. Not two scales separated by thirty orders of magnitude. What > about this do you not understand? > ” > Atoms and galaxies are exactly the same. > What is it about this that you don’t get? > What are you even squawking about? I’m squawking because you don’t know what a fractal is but you use the word anyway. > > Look over your shoulder- DM just went down for the count. > -- Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
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| From | john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-16 12:29 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <3b13ccb4-09d1-469d-a3a5-5c51b13736f5@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #702982 |
Odd “I’m squawking because you don’t know what a fractal is but you use the word anyway. ” What’s an ‘iteration ‘?
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| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-16 19:35 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <pnmbag$15bg$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #702983 |
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> wrote: > Odd > “I’m squawking because you don’t know what a fractal is but you use the word > anyway. > ” > What’s an ‘iteration ‘? > It’s not a fractal! I’ve already told you that. There is no such thing as a fractal iteration. There is such a thing as using an iterative function in computer programming to draw a fractal. But fractals in nature do not use iterative functions to happen, and “fractal iteration” is s term you just made up because you DON’T KNOW WHAT A FRACTAL IS. You just like the word because it sounds cool. -- Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
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| From | john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-17 05:47 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <33d1a68d-98d9-4321-aeec-5e54ef0ab955@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #702984 |
Odd “You just like the word because it sounds cool. “ Okay then what do we call it when galaxies are composed of atoms and atoms are identical to galaxies?
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| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-17 12:59 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <pno8g4$3hs$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #703113 |
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> wrote: > Odd > “You just like the word because it sounds cool. “ > > Okay then what do we call it when galaxies are composed of atoms and > atoms are identical to galaxies? > Seftonish. Not fractal. -- Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
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| From | john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-17 06:16 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <955ae681-950b-4837-b5d9-11a2a55e78af@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #703114 |
Odd But what about this, Odd? (Capitals mine) “Self-similarity is a typical property of artificial fractals. Scale invariance is an exact form of self-similarity where at ANY magnification there is a smaller piece of the object that is similar to the whole.”
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| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-17 16:43 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <pnolk4$sfo$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #703117 |
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> wrote: > Odd > But what about this, Odd? (Capitals mine) > > “Self-similarity is a typical property of artificial fractals. Scale > invariance is an exact form of self-similarity where at ANY magnification > there is a smaller piece of the object that is similar to the whole.” > At ANY magnification. That means you don’t have to blow it up 30 orders of magnitude before you see the similarity again. It means you can blow it up one order of magnitude, or two, or five, or seventeen, and at ANY of those scales you will see similarity. When you talk about 2:1 precession in atoms and you say atoms are fractal, this means I should be able to go just eight orders of magnitude larger, to things a centimeter across, like a coin, and see the 2:1 precession at that scale too. You see the 2:1? Me neither. Good lord you can’t read. Two sentences you quoted to me and you couldn’t figure out what it said in plain English. No wonder you don’t like to read. -- Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
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| From | moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-09-17 16:50 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <pnom15$mf1$5@pcls7.std.com> |
| In reply to | #703117 |
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes: >Odd >But what about this, Odd? (Capitals mine) >"Self-similarity is a typical property of artificial fractals. Scale >invariance is an exact form of self-similarity where at ANY >magnification there is a smaller piece of the object that is similar to >the whole." Well you did say (and emphasize) "at ANY magnification", but even for you it only works at one scale, 1:10^31, so we can eliminate that definition. Especially since there isn't any self-similarity even at that scale.
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