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>>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<<

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  >>>>>>   More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<< Mike Flannigan <mflannigan@jam.rr.com> - 2018-04-19 01:37 +0000
    Re: >>>>>>   More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<< Steve BH <sbharris@gmail.com> - 2018-04-19 18:22 -0700
    Re: >>>>>>   More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<< Steve BH <sbharris@gmail.com> - 2018-04-19 19:27 -0700
    Re: >>>>>>   More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<< Steve BH <sbharris@gmail.com> - 2018-04-19 19:29 -0700
    Re: >>>>>>   More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<< Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2018-04-19 22:14 -0500
      Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<< benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-04-20 17:58 -0400
        Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<< Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-04-20 18:53 -0500
          Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<< benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-04-20 21:32 -0400
            Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<< Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-04-20 21:30 -0500
              Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<< benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-04-21 12:53 -0400
                Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<< Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-04-21 12:31 -0500
          Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<< Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2018-04-21 19:38 -0500
            Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<< benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-04-22 13:22 -0400
            Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<< Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-04-22 15:02 -0500

#681628 — >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<<

More guns, less crime? Not according to the data.
By National Observer in News, US News, Politics | February 16th 2018

“The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun,” 
said Wayne LaPierre, vice president of the National Rifle Association 
(NRA), after a gunman killed 20 children and six others at Sandy Hook 
Elementary School in December 2012.

Not long after the deadly school shooting that recently killed 17 in 
Parkland, Florida, gun rights advocates argued that the shooter may have 
been deterred if there were more guns available, in the hands of teachers 
and staff. But there's little evidence to support this.

An American is forty times more likely to encounter a gun than most other 
human beings in the world.
On the contrary, the data shows that the U.S. stands alone among developed 
countries when it comes to firearm-related murders. Guns were used to 
murder more than two-thirds of all victims in the U.S. In comparison, 
Mexico, one of the most violent countries in the world, had fewer than 
half of its murder victims die by firearm violence. (In 2011, 34 per cent 
of Canadian murder victims, 20 per cent of Australian victims, and two per 
cent of Japanese victims died from a gun).

It’s not that Americans are more violent than people in other countries: 
in 2011, both Brits and Australians were statistically more likely to be 
injured in a violent crime. But the American is forty times more likely to 
encounter a gun. According to the United Nations Office of Drugs and 
Crime, gun victims are six times more likely die than victims of assault 
with a knife or blunt object.


But America has many, many more guns in circulation than any other 
country. In 2011, 270 million firearms were circulated in the U.S., almost 
90 guns for every 100 people. No other country comes close: Yemen, in the 
midst of of civil war, only has 55 guns for every 100 people.

Even so, the data show that Americans are not more prone to violence than 
Canadians or Australians. In spite of this, compared to the average 
American, Canadians are ten times less likely to be victims of gun 
violence. (Brits are fourteen times and Australians forty times less 
likely.) The U.S. is also one of the few developed countries in the world 
without a comprehensive firearms registry.

The aggregate data almost certainly understates the global impact of 
American guns. According to the U.S. Government Accountability Office, the 
vast majority of guns seized and traced in Mexico are of American origin. 
About a quarter of these weapons are high-caliber weapons, such as AK and 
AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles.

In Canada, traced guns have almost always been American. But the steady 
flood of American guns may have slowed: the National Weapons Enforcement 
Support Team (NWEST) estimates that, in the last three years, 60 per cent 
of B.C. crime guns have come from domestic sources. The Task Force on 
Illegal Firearms attributes this curious trend to “changes in firearms 
legislation in states such as Washington and Oregon requiring 
recordkeeping at the point of sale for all firearms… In Canada, there is 
no national legislation to require record keeping for sales.”

B.C.’s experience suggests that when U.S. gun laws are strengthened, 
criminals will find firearms from different places. But when Americans 
loosen their gun laws, the global market is flooded with cheap weapons. 
Political scientists estimate that the U.S. assault weapons ban expiring 
in 2004 directly caused an additional 158 gun deaths per year in Mexican 
border municipos. The massive U.S. gun stockpile essentially gives the 
Americans a global monopoly on firearms and small arms violence.

Americans more or less agree: the U.S. needs more gun control. For the 
last two decades, a consistent majority of Americans have supported 
stricter gun control; those who want less regulation have increased in 
number, but number no more than one in five respondents.

So why has the U.S. failed to strengthen their gun laws in spite of 
sustained public opinion? The seminal argument, John Lott’s More Guns, 
Less Crime, was published in 1998 and has blurred the parameters of the 
gun safety debate ever since. “States that ban the concealed carrying of 
guns have murder rates 127 per cent higher than states with the most 
liberal concealed-carry laws,” Lott reports. “States with [no gun control] 
have less crime.” A peaceful society, the thinking goes, is most likely 
when everybody is armed and able to defend themselves with lethal force.

This is a willful misreading of statistics. The data simply do not support 
the “more guns, less crime” claim. States with stricter regulations may 
have higher murder rates, but the laws were instituted in response to 
crime, not the other way around. Easy domestic firearm transport and trade 
of firearms further obfuscates their argument. Republicans often talk 
about Chicago, which has one of the highest murder rates and strictest gun 
laws in the U.S. What they don’t say is that 60 per cent of all firearms 
seized in Chicago come from outside state lines. (Neighboring Wisconsin 
and Indiana both have some of the weakest gun laws in the U.S.)

But the data do definitively show that countries with fewer guns in 
circulation have fewer homicides and lower levels of crime lethality. 
(This relationship holds for the 50 U.S. states, too.) Brits, Australians, 
and Americans all have similar rates of violent crime, but Americans are 
much more likely to use a firearm. The presence of a gun turns assault 
into mass murder-- and there are as many guns as people in the United 
States.

The more likely culprit is the gun lobby, which has spent extensively on 
U.S. campaigns. In the 2016 election, the NRA spent a combined $31.2 
million dollars supporting Donald Trump and opposing Hillary Clinton.

The effort paid off. A year ago, in one of his first official acts as 
President, Donald Trump signed a bill overturning regulations that 
required background checks for more people with a history of mental 
illness.

On February 14, seventeen people were shot and killed at Marjory Stoneman 
High School in Parkland, Florida. It was the 18th school shooting of 2018. 
in a televised statement from the White House, the President offered 
condolences to the victims of the latest American mass shooting.

“We are committed to working with state and local leaders to help secure 
our schools, and tackle the difficult issue of mental health,” Trump said.

He did not mention guns.


https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/02/16/news/more-guns-less-crime-not-
according-data

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#681704

On Wednesday, April 18, 2018 at 6:37:17 PM UTC-7, Mike Flannigan wrote:
> More guns, less crime? Not according to the data.
> By National Observer in News, US News, Politics | February 16th 2018
> 
> “The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun,” 
> said Wayne LaPierre, vice president of the National Rifle Association 
> (NRA), after a gunman killed 20 children and six others at Sandy Hook 
> Elementary School in December 2012.
> 
> Not long after the deadly school shooting that recently killed 17 in 
> Parkland, Florida, gun rights advocates argued that the shooter may have 
> been deterred if there were more guns available, in the hands of teachers 
> and staff. But there's little evidence to support this.
> 
> An American is forty times more likely to encounter a gun than most other 
> human beings in the world.
> On the contrary, the data shows that the U.S. stands alone among developed 
> countries when it comes to firearm-related murders. Guns were used to 
> murder more than two-thirds of all victims in the U.S. In comparison, 
> Mexico, one of the most violent countries in the world, had fewer than 
> half of its murder victims die by firearm violence. (In 2011, 34 per cent 
> of Canadian murder victims, 20 per cent of Australian victims, and two per 
> cent of Japanese victims died from a gun).
> 
> It’s not that Americans are more violent than people in other countries: 
> in 2011, both Brits and Australians were statistically more likely to be 
> injured in a violent crime. But the American is forty times more likely to 
> encounter a gun. According to the United Nations Office of Drugs and 
> Crime, gun victims are six times more likely die than victims of assault 
> with a knife or blunt object.
> 
> 
> But America has many, many more guns in circulation than any other 
> country. In 2011, 270 million firearms were circulated in the U.S., almost 
> 90 guns for every 100 people. No other country comes close: Yemen, in the 
> midst of of civil war, only has 55 guns for every 100 people.
> 
> Even so, the data show that Americans are not more prone to violence than 
> Canadians or Australians. In spite of this, compared to the average 
> American, Canadians are ten times less likely to be victims of gun 
> violence. (Brits are fourteen times and Australians forty times less 
> likely.) The U.S. is also one of the few developed countries in the world 
> without a comprehensive firearms registry.
> 
> The aggregate data almost certainly understates the global impact of 
> American guns. According to the U.S. Government Accountability Office, the 
> vast majority of guns seized and traced in Mexico are of American origin. 
> About a quarter of these weapons are high-caliber weapons, such as AK and 
> AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles.
> 
> In Canada, traced guns have almost always been American. But the steady 
> flood of American guns may have slowed: the National Weapons Enforcement 
> Support Team (NWEST) estimates that, in the last three years, 60 per cent 
> of B.C. crime guns have come from domestic sources. The Task Force on 
> Illegal Firearms attributes this curious trend to “changes in firearms 
> legislation in states such as Washington and Oregon requiring 
> recordkeeping at the point of sale for all firearms… In Canada, there is 
> no national legislation to require record keeping for sales.”
> 
> B.C.’s experience suggests that when U.S. gun laws are strengthened, 
> criminals will find firearms from different places. But when Americans 
> loosen their gun laws, the global market is flooded with cheap weapons. 
> Political scientists estimate that the U.S. assault weapons ban expiring 
> in 2004 directly caused an additional 158 gun deaths per year in Mexican 
> border municipos. The massive U.S. gun stockpile essentially gives the 
> Americans a global monopoly on firearms and small arms violence.
> 
> Americans more or less agree: the U.S. needs more gun control. For the 
> last two decades, a consistent majority of Americans have supported 
> stricter gun control; those who want less regulation have increased in 
> number, but number no more than one in five respondents.
> 
> So why has the U.S. failed to strengthen their gun laws in spite of 
> sustained public opinion? The seminal argument, John Lott’s More Guns, 
> Less Crime, was published in 1998 and has blurred the parameters of the 
> gun safety debate ever since. “States that ban the concealed carrying of 
> guns have murder rates 127 per cent higher than states with the most 
> liberal concealed-carry laws,” Lott reports. “States with [no gun control] 
> have less crime.” A peaceful society, the thinking goes, is most likely 
> when everybody is armed and able to defend themselves with lethal force.
> 
> This is a willful misreading of statistics. The data simply do not support 
> the “more guns, less crime” claim. States with stricter regulations may 
> have higher murder rates, but the laws were instituted in response to 
> crime, not the other way around. Easy domestic firearm transport and trade 
> of firearms further obfuscates their argument. Republicans often talk 
> about Chicago, which has one of the highest murder rates and strictest gun 
> laws in the U.S. What they don’t say is that 60 per cent of all firearms 
> seized in Chicago come from outside state lines. (Neighboring Wisconsin 
> and Indiana both have some of the weakest gun laws in the U.S.)
> 
> But the data do definitively show that countries with fewer guns in 
> circulation have fewer homicides and lower levels of crime lethality. 
> (This relationship holds for the 50 U.S. states, too.) Brits, Australians, 
> and Americans all have similar rates of violent crime, but Americans are 
> much more likely to use a firearm. The presence of a gun turns assault 
> into mass murder-- and there are as many guns as people in the United 
> States.
> 
> The more likely culprit is the gun lobby, which has spent extensively on 
> U.S. campaigns. In the 2016 election, the NRA spent a combined $31.2 
> million dollars supporting Donald Trump and opposing Hillary Clinton.
> 
> The effort paid off. A year ago, in one of his first official acts as 
> President, Donald Trump signed a bill overturning regulations that 
> required background checks for more people with a history of mental 
> illness.
> 
> On February 14, seventeen people were shot and killed at Marjory Stoneman 
> High School in Parkland, Florida. It was the 18th school shooting of 2018. 
> in a televised statement from the White House, the President offered 
> condolences to the victims of the latest American mass shooting.
> 
> “We are committed to working with state and local leaders to help secure 
> our schools, and tackle the difficult issue of mental health,” Trump said.
> 
> He did not mention guns.
> 
> 
> https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/02/16/news/more-guns-less-crime-not-
> according-data

===

"The aggregate data almost certainly understates the global impact of 
American guns. According to the U.S. Government Accountability Office, the 
vast majority of guns seized and traced in Mexico are of American origin. 
About a quarter of these weapons are high-caliber weapons, such as AK and 
AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles."


The above is propaganda. At BEST is a partial truth intending to deceive, as a lawyer would to. Most guns seized in MEXICO are NOT TRACED. There's no point in it, as they are obviously from the Mexican military or police, which are massively corrupt, and whose guns wind up the hands of Narco. Or they are obviously from Honduras, a far cheaper gun source than the US (as well as a source of fully automatic weapons, grenades and other military gear).

Mexico only traces weapons that they think may have come from the US and when they do, they find that this (small fraction) mostly DID come from the US. Surprise. So what? That idea that the US supplies cheap firearms to South America is so wrong that it's hilarious.

> B.C.’s experience suggests that when U.S. gun laws are strengthened, 
> criminals will find firearms from different places. But when Americans 
> loosen their gun laws, the global market is flooded with cheap weapons. 
> Political scientists estimate that the U.S. assault weapons ban expiring 
> in 2004 directly caused an additional 158 gun deaths per year in Mexican 
> border municipos. The massive U.S. gun stockpile essentially gives the 
> Americans a global monopoly on firearms and small arms violence.


More of the same crap. Take a look at the average Mexican "Federale" (Policia Federal = PF). Unlike the average US cop, he's carrying an "assault weapon." That is what winds up in the hand of Mexican Narco dealers. They don't go up to Juarez to buy U.S. AR-15s. 

The claim above looks at two years worth of Mexican data from 2004 to 2006, when homicides near the border in Mexico increased by 60%. Then this relatively small increase was completely swamped by Calderon's drug war, so the researchers stopped looking. 

http://www.slate.com/technology/2018/04/can-facebook-use-its-data-to-combat-racism.html

But the fact that social conditions like a drug war swamp factors like gun laws is precisely the point. Mexico has much stricter gun laws than the US, but far stricter gun laws. There is only one gun store in all of Mexico, and it sells a few small caliber weapons to a long line of customer. But the writer wants the US to enact Mexico style gun laws anyway.

The availability of guns probably has a small effect on gun murder in a cross state comparison. But it probably explains no more than 20% of gun murders, and the rest are explained by other social factors, like poverty, race relations, inner city decay, and the drug war. 

Let me illustrate: New Hampshire (0.6 per 100,000/year) has about same gun murder rate as CANADA (0.45 per 100,000/year). But they have far looser gun laws and far more guns. Louisiana (8.1 per 100,000) has 13 TIMES the gun murder rate of New Hampshire, but gun laws and availability are about the same. Wouldn't a rational epidemiologist or sociologist try to find out what is wrong with Louisiana culture (look at their incarceration rate and prison population) instead of trying to pass federal laws that punish New England for the sins of the US Confederacy? Hmmm?

Utah is awash in guns. I grew up there. The Utah gun murder rate is 1.1 per 100,000 per year (similar to Israel, also awash in guns). The Mexican gun murder rate, by contrast, is 6.3. 

Smoking causes most lung cancer (~ 85%), so with smoking you never find countries that smoke a lot but have little lung cancer, and countries (and US states) that smoke little but have a lot of lung cancer. The fact that we find this FOR GUN MURDER between states in the US, and between countries, is exactly due to the fact that the primary problem that results in gun deaths, isn't guns. 

No more than the primary problem with automobile deaths is availability of automobiles. Yes, you could lower auto deaths per mile driven by removing autos from nearly everybody, but if you had a difference in auto deaths per mile between states of 13 (the actual ratio of low-to-high is 2), you wouldn't think immediately of automobile confiscation! You'd instead try to find out what the hell was wrong with the state where everybody was crashing. 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#681712

On Wednesday, April 18, 2018 at 6:37:17 PM UTC-7, Mike Flannigan wrote:

"The aggregate data almost certainly understates the global impact of
American guns. According to the U.S. Government Accountability Office, the
vast majority of guns seized and traced in Mexico are of American origin.
About a quarter of these weapons are high-caliber weapons, such as AK and
AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles."


The above is propaganda. At BEST is a partial truth intending to deceive, as a lawyer would to. Most guns seized in MEXICO are NOT TRACED. There's no point in it, as they are obviously from the Mexican military or police, which are massively corrupt, and whose guns wind up the hands of Narco. Or they are obviously from Honduras, a far cheaper gun source than the US (as well as a source of fully automatic weapons, grenades and other military gear).

Mexico only traces weapons that they think may have come from the US and when they do, they find that this (small fraction) mostly DID come from the US. Surprise. So what? That idea that the US supplies cheap firearms to South America is so wrong that it's hilarious.

> B.C.’s experience suggests that when U.S. gun laws are strengthened,
> criminals will find firearms from different places. But when Americans
> loosen their gun laws, the global market is flooded with cheap weapons.
> Political scientists estimate that the U.S. assault weapons ban expiring
> in 2004 directly caused an additional 158 gun deaths per year in Mexican
> border municipos. The massive U.S. gun stockpile essentially gives the
> Americans a global monopoly on firearms and small arms violence.


More of the same crap. Take a look at the average Mexican "Federale" (Policia Federal = PF). Unlike the average US cop, he's carrying an "assault weapon." That is what winds up in the hand of Mexican Narco dealers. They don't go up to Juarez to buy U.S. AR-15s.

The claim above looks at two years worth of Mexican data from 2004 to 2006, when homicides near the border in Mexico increased by 60%. Then this relatively small increase was completely swamped by Calderon's drug war, so the researchers stopped looking.

http://www.slate.com/technology/2018/04/can-facebook-use-its-data-to-combat-racism.html

But the fact that social conditions like a drug war swamp factors like gun laws is precisely the point. Mexico has much stricter gun laws than the US, but a higher gun homicide rate. There is only one gun store in all of Mexico, and it sells a few small caliber weapons to a long line of customer. But the writer wants the US to enact Mexico style gun laws anyway.

The availability of guns probably has a small effect on gun murder in a cross state comparison. But it probably explains no more than 20% of gun murders, and the rest are explained by other social factors, like poverty, race relations, inner city decay, and the drug war.

Let me illustrate: New Hampshire (0.6 per 100,000/year) has about same gun murder rate as CANADA (0.45 per 100,000/year). But they have far looser gun laws and far more guns. Louisiana (8.1 per 100,000) has 13 TIMES the gun murder rate of New Hampshire, but gun laws and availability are about the same. Wouldn't a rational epidemiologist or sociologist try to find out what is wrong with Louisiana culture (look at their incarceration rate and prison population) instead of trying to pass federal laws that punish New England for the sins of the US Confederacy? Hmmm?

Utah is awash in guns. I grew up there. The Utah gun murder rate is 1.1 per 100,000 per year (similar to Israel, also awash in guns). The Mexican gun murder rate, by contrast, is 6.3.

Smoking causes most lung cancer (~ 85%), so with smoking you never find countries that smoke a lot but have little lung cancer, and countries (and US states) that smoke little but have a lot of lung cancer. The fact that we find this FOR GUN MURDER between states in the US, and between countries, is exactly due to the fact that the primary problem that results in gun deaths, isn't guns.

No more than the primary problem with automobile deaths is availability of automobiles. Yes, you could lower auto deaths per mile driven by removing autos from nearly everybody, but if you had a difference in auto deaths per mile between states of 13 (the actual ratio of low-to-high is 2), you wouldn't think immediately of automobile confiscation! You'd instead try to find out what the hell was wrong with the state where everybody was crashing.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#681713

On Wednesday, April 18, 2018 at 6:37:17 PM UTC-7, Mike Flannigan wrote:

"The aggregate data almost certainly understates the global impact of
American guns. According to the U.S. Government Accountability Office, the
vast majority of guns seized and traced in Mexico are of American origin.
About a quarter of these weapons are high-caliber weapons, such as AK and
AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles."


The above is propaganda. At BEST is a partial truth intending to deceive, as a lawyer would to. Most guns seized in MEXICO are NOT TRACED. There's no point in it, as they are obviously from the Mexican military or police, which are massively corrupt, and whose guns wind up the hands of Narco. Or they are obviously from Honduras, a far cheaper gun source than the US (as well as a source of fully automatic weapons, grenades and other military gear).

Mexico only traces weapons that they think may have come from the US and when they do, they find that this (small fraction) mostly DID come from the US. Surprise. So what? That idea that the US supplies cheap firearms to South America is so wrong that it's hilarious.

> B.C.’s experience suggests that when U.S. gun laws are strengthened,
> criminals will find firearms from different places. But when Americans
> loosen their gun laws, the global market is flooded with cheap weapons.
> Political scientists estimate that the U.S. assault weapons ban expiring
> in 2004 directly caused an additional 158 gun deaths per year in Mexican
> border municipos. The massive U.S. gun stockpile essentially gives the
> Americans a global monopoly on firearms and small arms violence.


More of the same crap. Take a look at the average Mexican "Federale" (Policia Federal = PF). Unlike the average US cop, he's carrying an "assault weapon." That is what winds up in the hand of Mexican Narco dealers. They don't go up to Juarez to buy U.S. AR-15s.

The claim above looks at two years worth of Mexican data from 2004 to 2006, when homicides near the border in Mexico increased by 60%. Then this relatively small increase was completely swamped by Calderon's drug war, so the researchers stopped looking.

http://www.slate.com/technology/2018/04/can-facebook-use-its-data-to-combat-racism.html

But the fact that social conditions like a drug war swamp factors like gun laws is precisely the point. Mexico has much stricter gun laws than the US, but a higher gun homicide rate. There is only one gun store in all of Mexico, and it sells a few small caliber weapons to a long line of customer. But the writer wants the US to enact Mexico style gun laws anyway.

The availability of guns probably has a small effect on gun murder in a cross state comparison. But it probably explains no more than 20% of gun murders, and the rest are explained by other social factors, like poverty, race relations, inner city decay, and the drug war.

Let me illustrate: New Hampshire (0.6 per 100,000/year) has about same gun murder rate as CANADA (0.45 per 100,000/year). But they have far looser gun laws and far more guns. Louisiana (8.1 per 100,000) has 13 TIMES the gun murder rate of New Hampshire, but gun laws and availability are about the same. Wouldn't a rational epidemiologist or sociologist try to find out what is wrong with Louisiana culture (look at their incarceration rate and prison population) instead of trying to pass federal laws that punish New England for the sins of the US Confederacy? Hmmm?

Utah is awash in guns. I grew up there. The Utah gun murder rate is 1.1 per 100,000 per year (similar to Israel, also awash in guns). The Mexican gun murder rate, by contrast, is 6.3.

Smoking causes most lung cancer (~ 85%), so with smoking you never find countries that smoke a lot but have little lung cancer, and countries (and US states) that smoke little but have a lot of lung cancer. The fact that we find this FOR GUN MURDER between states in the US, and between countries, is exactly due to the fact that the primary problem that results in gun deaths, isn't guns.

No more than the primary problem with automobile deaths is availability of automobiles. Yes, you could lower auto deaths per mile driven by removing autos from nearly everybody, but if you had a difference in auto deaths per mile between states of 13 (the actual ratio of low-to-high is 2), you wouldn't think immediately of automobile confiscation! You'd instead try to find out what the hell was wrong with the state where everybody was crashing.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#681722

On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 01:37:14 +0000 (UTC), Mike Flannigan wrote:

This pretty much sums it up this whole post:

> About a quarter of these weapons are high-caliber weapons, such as AK
> and AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles.

"High calibre"?  Do you know what "calibre" measures?  The AR-15 fires a
.22 calibre slug.  [sigh]  Bloviation.  Wall-to-wall bloviation.

People ignorant of physics post here about physics.  Now people ignorant
of guns are posting here about guns.  Why?  Is this a war on knowledge?

Go find somewhere else to be.  Especially to be stupid.  Go away.

-- 
Goat

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#681804 — Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<<

On 4/19/2018 11:14 PM, Lofty Goat wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 01:37:14 +0000 (UTC), Mike Flannigan wrote:
> 
> This pretty much sums it up this whole post:
> 
>> About a quarter of these weapons are high-caliber weapons, such as AK
>> and AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles.
> 
> "High calibre"?  Do you know what "calibre" measures?  The AR-15 fires a
> .22 calibre slug.  [sigh]  Bloviation.  Wall-to-wall bloviation.
> 
> People ignorant of physics post here about physics.  Now people ignorant
> of guns are posting here about guns.  Why?  Is this a war on knowledge?
> 
> Go find somewhere else to be.  Especially to be stupid.  Go away.
> 
The answer to your question is pretty simple, Lofty. Libs are posting 
here and all libs are totally ignorant of ANYTHING except spelling, 
grammar and puerile name calling. So many examples of that here that no 
cites or proof is needed. End of discussion.

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#681821 — Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<<

On 4/20/2018 4:58 PM, benj wrote:
> On 4/19/2018 11:14 PM, Lofty Goat wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 01:37:14 +0000 (UTC), Mike Flannigan wrote:
>>
>> This pretty much sums it up this whole post:
>>
>>> About a quarter of these weapons are high-caliber weapons, such as AK
>>> and AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles.
>>
>> "High calibre"?  Do you know what "calibre" measures?  The AR-15 fires a
>> .22 calibre slug.  [sigh]  Bloviation.  Wall-to-wall bloviation.

correction, .223 copper coated

shotgun much better at big holes (there was a NRA demo on TV by a lady
showing .223 (tiny hole) vs shotgun (BIG HOLE) to  Obamaites)

>>
>> People ignorant of physics post here about physics.  Now people ignorant
>> of guns are posting here about guns.  Why?  Is this a war on knowledge?
>>
>> Go find somewhere else to be.  Especially to be stupid.  Go away.
>>
> The answer to your question is pretty simple, Lofty. Libs are posting
> here and all libs are totally ignorant of ANYTHING except spelling,
> grammar and puerile name calling. So many examples of that here that no
> cites or proof is needed. End of discussion.

Correction: last sentance should be, "This is the end of the discussion"


did you know in California, the rugar ranch rifle mimi 14, is leagl

CA LEGAL!! new in box RUGER MINI 14 RANCH stainless synthetic 5.56 223
NOT AR 15

mini 14 is bad ass, so is mini 30, and legal in calif, just call it a
'ranch rifle'

link to  make your AR15 Kalifornia Komplient with a Kit
https://www.ar-15lowerpartskit.com/california-compliant-ar-15-what-you-need-to-know/

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#681825 — Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<<

On 4/20/2018 7:53 PM, Sergio wrote:
> On 4/20/2018 4:58 PM, benj wrote:
>> On 4/19/2018 11:14 PM, Lofty Goat wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 01:37:14 +0000 (UTC), Mike Flannigan wrote:
>>>
>>> This pretty much sums it up this whole post:
>>>
>>>> About a quarter of these weapons are high-caliber weapons, such as AK
>>>> and AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles.
>>>
>>> "High calibre"?  Do you know what "calibre" measures?  The AR-15 fires a
>>> .22 calibre slug.  [sigh]  Bloviation.  Wall-to-wall bloviation.
> 
> correction, .223 copper coated
> 
> shotgun much better at big holes (there was a NRA demo on TV by a lady
> showing .223 (tiny hole) vs shotgun (BIG HOLE) to  Obamaites)
> 
>>>
>>> People ignorant of physics post here about physics.  Now people ignorant
>>> of guns are posting here about guns.  Why?  Is this a war on knowledge?
>>>
>>> Go find somewhere else to be.  Especially to be stupid.  Go away.
>>>
>> The answer to your question is pretty simple, Lofty. Libs are posting
>> here and all libs are totally ignorant of ANYTHING except spelling,
>> grammar and puerile name calling. So many examples of that here that no
>> cites or proof is needed. End of discussion.
> 
> Correction: last sentance should be, "This is the end of the discussion"
> 
> 
> did you know in California, the rugar ranch rifle mimi 14, is leagl
> 
> CA LEGAL!! new in box RUGER MINI 14 RANCH stainless synthetic 5.56 223
> NOT AR 15
> 
> mini 14 is bad ass, so is mini 30, and legal in calif, just call it a
> 'ranch rifle'

Sergio, you sure are a piss poor liberal! It's not about what you can 
shoot with it it, it's all about those deadly features that make it a 
terrorist weapon. You know like the deadly pistol grip, thumbhole or 
folding stock or flash hider. These things strike fear into the liberal 
heart and create massive "gun rays" that cloud men's minds and turn 
snowflakes into nutjobs shooting up schools and killing children!

Of course in states not as "progressive" as CA (Kalifornia) the Mini-14 
can be purchased with a folding stock, pistol grip and other terrorist 
features right "out of the box". Kalifornia does lead the nation in 
insanity.

> link to  make your AR15 Kalifornia Komplient with a Kit
> https://www.ar-15lowerpartskit.com/california-compliant-ar-15-what-you-need-to-know/
> 
OF course the real question would be why is anyone sane enough to be 
allowed to own a firearm and who does not speak Spanish still living in 
Kalifornia?

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#681830 — Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<<

On 4/20/2018 8:32 PM, benj wrote:
> On 4/20/2018 7:53 PM, Sergio wrote:
>> On 4/20/2018 4:58 PM, benj wrote:
>>> On 4/19/2018 11:14 PM, Lofty Goat wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 01:37:14 +0000 (UTC), Mike Flannigan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This pretty much sums it up this whole post:
>>>>
>>>>> About a quarter of these weapons are high-caliber weapons, such as AK
>>>>> and AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles.
>>>>
>>>> "High calibre"?  Do you know what "calibre" measures?  The AR-15
>>>> fires a
>>>> .22 calibre slug.  [sigh]  Bloviation.  Wall-to-wall bloviation.
>>
>> correction, .223 copper coated
>>
>> shotgun much better at big holes (there was a NRA demo on TV by a lady
>> showing .223 (tiny hole) vs shotgun (BIG HOLE) to  Obamaites)
>>
>>>>
>>>> People ignorant of physics post here about physics.  Now people
>>>> ignorant
>>>> of guns are posting here about guns.  Why?  Is this a war on knowledge?
>>>>
>>>> Go find somewhere else to be.  Especially to be stupid.  Go away.
>>>>
>>> The answer to your question is pretty simple, Lofty. Libs are posting
>>> here and all libs are totally ignorant of ANYTHING except spelling,
>>> grammar and puerile name calling. So many examples of that here that no
>>> cites or proof is needed. End of discussion.
>>
>> Correction: last sentance should be, "This is the end of the discussion"
>>
>>
>> did you know in California, the rugar ranch rifle mimi 14, is leagl
>>
>> CA LEGAL!! new in box RUGER MINI 14 RANCH stainless synthetic 5.56 223
>> NOT AR 15
>>
>> mini 14 is bad ass, so is mini 30, and legal in calif, just call it a
>> 'ranch rifle'
> 
> Sergio, you sure are a piss poor liberal! It's not about what you can
> shoot with it it, it's all about those deadly features that make it a
> terrorist weapon. You know like the deadly pistol grip, thumbhole or
> folding stock or flash hider. These things strike fear into the liberal
> heart and create massive "gun rays" that cloud men's minds and turn
> snowflakes into nutjobs shooting up schools and killing children!
> 
> Of course in states not as "progressive" as CA (Kalifornia) the Mini-14
> can be purchased with a folding stock, pistol grip and other terrorist
> features right "out of the box". Kalifornia does lead the nation in
> insanity.
> 
>> link to  make your AR15 Kalifornia Komplient with a Kit
>> https://www.ar-15lowerpartskit.com/california-compliant-ar-15-what-you-need-to-know/
>>
>>
> OF course the real question would be why is anyone sane enough to be
> allowed to own a firearm and who does not speak Spanish still living in
> Kalifornia?


they are losing jobs there too, and companies.


interesting kalifornia gun flow chart;

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

I was at Cabellas today, they had a 19" pistol in .50  !! 5 or 6 shot.
makes dirty harry look wimpy, and probably takes your arm off when you
shoot it once.

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#681865 — Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<<

On 4/20/2018 10:30 PM, Sergio wrote:
> On 4/20/2018 8:32 PM, benj wrote:
>> On 4/20/2018 7:53 PM, Sergio wrote:
>>> On 4/20/2018 4:58 PM, benj wrote:
>>>> On 4/19/2018 11:14 PM, Lofty Goat wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 01:37:14 +0000 (UTC), Mike Flannigan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> This pretty much sums it up this whole post:
>>>>>
>>>>>> About a quarter of these weapons are high-caliber weapons, such as AK
>>>>>> and AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles.
>>>>>
>>>>> "High calibre"?  Do you know what "calibre" measures?  The AR-15
>>>>> fires a
>>>>> .22 calibre slug.  [sigh]  Bloviation.  Wall-to-wall bloviation.
>>>
>>> correction, .223 copper coated
>>>
>>> shotgun much better at big holes (there was a NRA demo on TV by a lady
>>> showing .223 (tiny hole) vs shotgun (BIG HOLE) to  Obamaites)
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> People ignorant of physics post here about physics.  Now people
>>>>> ignorant
>>>>> of guns are posting here about guns.  Why?  Is this a war on knowledge?
>>>>>
>>>>> Go find somewhere else to be.  Especially to be stupid.  Go away.
>>>>>
>>>> The answer to your question is pretty simple, Lofty. Libs are posting
>>>> here and all libs are totally ignorant of ANYTHING except spelling,
>>>> grammar and puerile name calling. So many examples of that here that no
>>>> cites or proof is needed. End of discussion.
>>>
>>> Correction: last sentance should be, "This is the end of the discussion"
>>>
>>>
>>> did you know in California, the rugar ranch rifle mimi 14, is leagl
>>>
>>> CA LEGAL!! new in box RUGER MINI 14 RANCH stainless synthetic 5.56 223
>>> NOT AR 15
>>>
>>> mini 14 is bad ass, so is mini 30, and legal in calif, just call it a
>>> 'ranch rifle'
>>
>> Sergio, you sure are a piss poor liberal! It's not about what you can
>> shoot with it it, it's all about those deadly features that make it a
>> terrorist weapon. You know like the deadly pistol grip, thumbhole or
>> folding stock or flash hider. These things strike fear into the liberal
>> heart and create massive "gun rays" that cloud men's minds and turn
>> snowflakes into nutjobs shooting up schools and killing children!
>>
>> Of course in states not as "progressive" as CA (Kalifornia) the Mini-14
>> can be purchased with a folding stock, pistol grip and other terrorist
>> features right "out of the box". Kalifornia does lead the nation in
>> insanity.
>>
>>> link to  make your AR15 Kalifornia Komplient with a Kit
>>> https://www.ar-15lowerpartskit.com/california-compliant-ar-15-what-you-need-to-know/
>>>
>>>
>> OF course the real question would be why is anyone sane enough to be
>> allowed to own a firearm and who does not speak Spanish still living in
>> Kalifornia?
> 
> 
> they are losing jobs there too, and companies.
> 
> 
> interesting kalifornia gun flow chart;
> 
> http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

Only a lib can understand it. Certainly no knuckle-dragging white 
uneducated Trump-voting conservatives.

But soon there will be a new simplified chart for the masses:

Do you own a gun?
No. Go on with your life and pay your taxes.
Yes. Call 911 and they will come and get it.

> I was at Cabellas today, they had a 19" pistol in .50  !! 5 or 6 shot.
> makes dirty harry look wimpy, and probably takes your arm off when you
> shoot it once.

Revolver or semi-auto?
Actually in one of the later Dirty Harry movies he had a .50 caliber 
AutoMag rather than his usual .44 magnum. I can't imagine those nutjobs 
who want fire a magnum inside the house for self-defense! More like 
takes your ears out! The AutoMag was interesting and worth some cash 
now, but it was not by chance it came with a tool kit. "Excuse me Mr. 
home invader but could you wait a minute from killing me and my family 
while I make a few adjustments to my Automag.

Of course the deal with the Kalifornia ban is that the list (especially 
AR and AK types) tend to be quite reliable and no leftist wants to be 
facing reliable arms "comes the revolution" when "the people" rise up to 
overthrow capitalism.

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#681870 — Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<<

On 4/21/2018 11:53 AM, benj wrote:
> On 4/20/2018 10:30 PM, Sergio wrote:
>> On 4/20/2018 8:32 PM, benj wrote:
>>> On 4/20/2018 7:53 PM, Sergio wrote:
>>>> On 4/20/2018 4:58 PM, benj wrote:
>>>>> On 4/19/2018 11:14 PM, Lofty Goat wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 01:37:14 +0000 (UTC), Mike Flannigan wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This pretty much sums it up this whole post:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About a quarter of these weapons are high-caliber weapons, such
>>>>>>> as AK
>>>>>>> and AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "High calibre"?  Do you know what "calibre" measures?  The AR-15
>>>>>> fires a
>>>>>> .22 calibre slug.  [sigh]  Bloviation.  Wall-to-wall bloviation.
>>>>
>>>> correction, .223 copper coated
>>>>
>>>> shotgun much better at big holes (there was a NRA demo on TV by a lady
>>>> showing .223 (tiny hole) vs shotgun (BIG HOLE) to  Obamaites)
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People ignorant of physics post here about physics.  Now people
>>>>>> ignorant
>>>>>> of guns are posting here about guns.  Why?  Is this a war on
>>>>>> knowledge?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Go find somewhere else to be.  Especially to be stupid.  Go away.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The answer to your question is pretty simple, Lofty. Libs are posting
>>>>> here and all libs are totally ignorant of ANYTHING except spelling,
>>>>> grammar and puerile name calling. So many examples of that here
>>>>> that no
>>>>> cites or proof is needed. End of discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Correction: last sentance should be, "This is the end of the
>>>> discussion"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> did you know in California, the rugar ranch rifle mimi 14, is leagl
>>>>
>>>> CA LEGAL!! new in box RUGER MINI 14 RANCH stainless synthetic 5.56 223
>>>> NOT AR 15
>>>>
>>>> mini 14 is bad ass, so is mini 30, and legal in calif, just call it a
>>>> 'ranch rifle'
>>>
>>> Sergio, you sure are a piss poor liberal! It's not about what you can
>>> shoot with it it, it's all about those deadly features that make it a
>>> terrorist weapon. You know like the deadly pistol grip, thumbhole or
>>> folding stock or flash hider. These things strike fear into the liberal
>>> heart and create massive "gun rays" that cloud men's minds and turn
>>> snowflakes into nutjobs shooting up schools and killing children!
>>>
>>> Of course in states not as "progressive" as CA (Kalifornia) the Mini-14
>>> can be purchased with a folding stock, pistol grip and other terrorist
>>> features right "out of the box". Kalifornia does lead the nation in
>>> insanity.
>>>
>>>> link to  make your AR15 Kalifornia Komplient with a Kit
>>>> https://www.ar-15lowerpartskit.com/california-compliant-ar-15-what-you-need-to-know/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> OF course the real question would be why is anyone sane enough to be
>>> allowed to own a firearm and who does not speak Spanish still living in
>>> Kalifornia?
>>
>>
>> they are losing jobs there too, and companies.
>>
>>
>> interesting kalifornia gun flow chart;
>>
>> http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf
> 
> Only a lib can understand it. Certainly no knuckle-dragging white
> uneducated Trump-voting conservatives.
> 
> But soon there will be a new simplified chart for the masses:
> 
> Do you own a gun?
> No. Go on with your life and pay your taxes.
> Yes. Call 911 and they will come and get it.
> 
>> I was at Cabellas today, they had a 19" pistol in .50  !! 5 or 6 shot.
>> makes dirty harry look wimpy, and probably takes your arm off when you
>> shoot it once.
> 
> Revolver or semi-auto?
> Actually in one of the later Dirty Harry movies he had a .50 caliber
> AutoMag rather than his usual .44 magnum. I can't imagine those nutjobs
> who want fire a magnum inside the house for self-defense! More like
> takes your ears out! The AutoMag was interesting and worth some cash
> now, but it was not by chance it came with a tool kit. "Excuse me Mr.
> home invader but could you wait a minute from killing me and my family
> while I make a few adjustments to my Automag.
> 
> Of course the deal with the Kalifornia ban is that the list (especially
> AR and AK types) tend to be quite reliable and no leftist wants to be
> facing reliable arms "comes the revolution" when "the people" rise up to
> overthrow capitalism.
> 
> 

that one was a revolver,
I think that gun is good for killing a home-invaders car.
  must have ear muffs on or ear plugs, for sure.

Democrats, the party of Stoners, wont care, but many will turn to harder
drugs, too bad.

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#681922 — Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<<

On Fri, 20 Apr 2018 18:53:05 -0500, Sergio wrote:

>On 4/20/2018 4:58 PM, benj wrote:
>> On 4/19/2018 11:14 PM, Lofty Goat wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 01:37:14 +0000 (UTC), Mike Flannigan wrote:
>>>
>>> This pretty much sums it up this whole post:
>>>
>>>> About a quarter of these weapons are high-caliber weapons, such as AK
>>>> and AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles.
>>>
>>> "High calibre"?  Do you know what "calibre" measures?  The AR-15 fires a
>>> .22 calibre slug.  [sigh]  Bloviation.  Wall-to-wall bloviation.
>
>correction, .223 copper coated....

Yeah, yeah, sure.  The squirrel-gun bore is something like .223 for a
.222 slug, the military one is .224 for a .223 slug.  To the eye the
slugs look identical except for their length.  The difference is 1/40
mm.  If you can see it, your eyes are better than mine (or anyone's).

In any event, "high calibre" is nonsense, spoken by someone who's never
even looked closely at any sort of firearm.

-- 
Goat

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#681980 — Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<<

On 4/21/2018 8:38 PM, Lofty Goat wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Apr 2018 18:53:05 -0500, Sergio wrote:
> 
>> On 4/20/2018 4:58 PM, benj wrote:
>>> On 4/19/2018 11:14 PM, Lofty Goat wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 01:37:14 +0000 (UTC), Mike Flannigan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This pretty much sums it up this whole post:
>>>>
>>>>> About a quarter of these weapons are high-caliber weapons, such as AK
>>>>> and AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles.
>>>>
>>>> "High calibre"?  Do you know what "calibre" measures?  The AR-15 fires a
>>>> .22 calibre slug.  [sigh]  Bloviation.  Wall-to-wall bloviation.
>>
>> correction, .223 copper coated....
> 
> Yeah, yeah, sure.  The squirrel-gun bore is something like .223 for a
> .222 slug, the military one is .224 for a .223 slug.  To the eye the
> slugs look identical except for their length.  The difference is 1/40
> mm.  If you can see it, your eyes are better than mine (or anyone's).
> 
> In any event, "high calibre" is nonsense, spoken by someone who's never
> even looked closely at any sort of firearm.
> 
Hey March 6 Washington Compost says that stupid is better than knowledge 
when it comes fo firearms. And journalists (especially at Washington 
compost) are experts in stupid)  See story page 68 in May 2018 NRA First 
Freedom Magazine.

Anti-gun libs are PROUD to be gun-stupid and wear it like a badge!

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#681995 — Re: >>>>>> More Guns, Less Crime? Not According To The Data Comparing Gun Infested USA To Civilized Nations <<<<<

On 4/21/2018 7:38 PM, Lofty Goat wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Apr 2018 18:53:05 -0500, Sergio wrote:
> 
>> On 4/20/2018 4:58 PM, benj wrote:
>>> On 4/19/2018 11:14 PM, Lofty Goat wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 01:37:14 +0000 (UTC), Mike Flannigan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This pretty much sums it up this whole post:
>>>>
>>>>> About a quarter of these weapons are high-caliber weapons, such as AK
>>>>> and AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles.
>>>>
>>>> "High calibre"?  Do you know what "calibre" measures?  The AR-15 fires a
>>>> .22 calibre slug.  [sigh]  Bloviation.  Wall-to-wall bloviation.
>>
>> correction, .223 copper coated....
> 
> Yeah, yeah, sure.  The squirrel-gun bore is something like .223 for a
> .222 slug, the military one is .224 for a .223 slug.  To the eye the
> slugs look identical except for their length.  The difference is 1/40
> mm.  If you can see it, your eyes are better than mine (or anyone's).

ruger mini14 target is fussy, .223 is ok but not the surplus mil
ammo,5.56mm*45, which looks identical.

details;

The cartridge casings for both calibers have basically the same length
and exterior dimensions.

The 5.56 round, loaded to Military Specification, typically has higher
velocity and chamber pressure than the .223 Rem.

The 5.56 cartridge case may have thicker walls, and a thicker head, for
extra strength. This better contains the higher chamber pressure.

However, a thicker case reduces powder capacity, which is of concern to
the reloader.

The 5.56mm and .223 Rem chambers are nearly identical. The difference is
in the "Leade". Leade is defined as the portion of the barrel directly
in front of the chamber where the rifling has been conically removed to
allow room for the seated bullet. It is also more commonly known as the
throat. Leade in a .223 Rem chamber is usually .085". In a 5.56mm
chamber the leade is typically .162", or almost twice as much as in the
223 Rem chamber.

You can fire .223 Rem cartridges in 5.56mm chambers with this longer
leade, but you will generally have a slight loss in accuracy and
velocity over firing the .223 round in the chamber with the shorter
leade it was designed for.

Problems may occur when firing the higher-pressure 5.56mm cartridge in a
.223 chamber with its much shorter leade. It is generally known that
shortening the leade can dramatically increase chamber pressure. In some
cases, this higher pressure could result in primer pocket gas leaks,
blown cartridge case heads and gun functioning issues.

The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a .223 Rem chamber is considered
by SAAMI (Small Arm and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an
unsafe ammunition combination.

> 
> In any event, "high calibre" is nonsense, spoken by someone who's never
> even looked closely at any sort of firearm.
> 

civil war, .65 caliber round ball !!

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