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Groups > sci.physics > #678071 > unrolled thread

Black Hole Event Horizon

Started by"reber G=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com>
First post2018-03-24 14:41 -0700
Last post2018-03-24 18:25 -0700
Articles 20 on this page of 70 — 7 participants

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  Black Hole Event Horizon "reber G=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 14:41 -0700
    Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 15:07 -0700
      Re: Black Hole Event Horizon "reber G=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 15:59 -0700
        Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 16:30 -0700
          Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-25 17:23 +0000
        Re: Black Hole Event Horizon "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> - 2018-03-24 18:14 -0700
      Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-25 17:26 +0000
        Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-25 12:11 -0700
          Re: Black Hole Event Horizon Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-25 19:32 +0000
          Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-26 00:35 +0000
        Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-25 12:13 -0700
          Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-26 00:46 +0000
            Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 08:03 -0700
              Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-26 17:21 +0000
                Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 10:51 -0700
                  Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-26 18:35 +0000
                    Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 13:10 -0700
                      Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-26 20:39 +0000
                        Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 14:44 -0700
                          Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-26 21:58 +0000
                            Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 15:12 -0700
                              Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-26 22:20 +0000
                                Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 16:02 -0700
                                  Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-27 04:38 +0000
                                Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 16:10 -0700
                                  Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-27 04:48 +0000
                                    Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-27 04:26 -0700
                                      Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-27 12:02 +0000
                                        Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-27 05:35 -0700
                                          Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-27 19:08 +0000
                                            Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-27 18:41 -0700
                                              Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-28 02:56 +0000
                                              Re: Black Hole Event Horizon "reber G=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 15:16 -0700
                                      Re: Black Hole Event Horizon Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-27 18:04 +0000
                                      Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-28 03:01 +0000
                                        Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 05:19 -0700
                                          Re: Black Hole Event Horizon Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 12:30 +0000
                                            Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 07:00 -0700
                                              Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 07:08 -0700
                                                Re: Black Hole Event Horizon Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 16:09 +0000
                                                  Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 09:37 -0700
                                                    Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 09:54 -0700
                                                      Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-28 17:31 +0000
                                                      Re: Black Hole Event Horizon Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 17:52 +0000
                                                        Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 11:43 -0700
                                                          Re: Black Hole Event Horizon Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 21:42 +0000
                                                            Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-29 06:55 -0700
                                                              Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-29 07:30 -0700
                                                                Re: Black Hole Event Horizon Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-29 14:51 +0000
                                                                  Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-29 09:35 -0700
                                                                    Re: Black Hole Event Horizon Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-29 17:21 +0000
                                                                      Re: Black Hole Event Horizon Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2018-03-29 21:46 -0500
                                                                    Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-29 17:40 +0000
                                                              Re: Black Hole Event Horizon Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-29 14:43 +0000
                                                              Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-29 17:34 +0000
                                                    Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 09:58 -0700
                                                      Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-28 17:33 +0000
                                                      Re: Black Hole Event Horizon Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 17:52 +0000
                                                    Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-28 17:29 +0000
                                                    Re: Black Hole Event Horizon Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 17:52 +0000
                                                    Re: Black Hole Event Horizon Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-03-29 10:22 -0700
                                                      Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-29 17:24 -0700
                                                        Re: Black Hole Event Horizon Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-03-31 19:46 -0700
                                              Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-28 14:46 +0000
                                              Re: Black Hole Event Horizon Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 16:09 +0000
                                          Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-28 12:33 +0000
                                            Re: Black Hole Event Horizon john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 06:24 -0700
                                              Re: Black Hole Event Horizon moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-28 14:41 +0000
                                              Re: Black Hole Event Horizon Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-28 16:07 +0000
    Re: Black Hole Event Horizon "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> - 2018-03-24 18:25 -0700

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#678427

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2018-03-26 15:12 -0700
Message-ID<2be25cef-626d-4698-b413-99f1a2aa9e46@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#678423
MM
"- show quoted text -
What about spiral galaxies where the space between the arms is obviously 
brighter than space outside of the disk?  Those brighter areas are 
full of stars that are obviously part of the galaxy.  Remember, this 

Do you know what the 'halo' is?
Hint: it is spherical, double-layered, and composed of old globular clusters.
Those stars could be the front ones or the back ones, and the two layers are moving in two different directions, just like they would be if left by a precessing disc.

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#678429

Frommoroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Date2018-03-26 22:20 +0000
Message-ID<p9brmv$tsh$1@pcls7.std.com>
In reply to#678427
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>MM
>"- show quoted text -
>What about spiral galaxies where the space between the arms is obviously 
>brighter than space outside of the disk?  Those brighter areas are 
>full of stars that are obviously part of the galaxy.  Remember, this 

>Do you know what the 'halo' is?
>Hint: it is spherical, double-layered, and composed of old globular clusters.

No, John, I am talking about the stars between the arms.  Halo stars are much
dimmer, as can be seen by looking at a spiral galaxy that's edge on. The bright
stars I am talking about are part of the disk.

>Those stars could be the front ones or the back ones, and the two layers are
>moving in two different directions, just like they would be if left by a precessing disc.

We're discussing galaxies, not precessing disks.

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#678441

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2018-03-26 16:02 -0700
Message-ID<c27150a8-ded1-4079-9340-baa9c89e7442@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#678429
MM
"dimmer, as can be seen by looking at a spiral galaxy that's edge on. The bright 
stars I am talking about are part of the disk. "
And you know this because?

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#678479

Frommoroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Date2018-03-27 04:38 +0000
Message-ID<p9chs4$g1f$1@pcls7.std.com>
In reply to#678441
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>MM
>"dimmer, as can be seen by looking at a spiral galaxy that's edge on. The bright 
>stars I am talking about are part of the disk. "
>And you know this because?

Because edge-on galaxies don't have a brightish circle of light around
them as would be expected if there was a spherical halo surrounding the
galaxy.  Meanwhile, face-on galaxies do have brightish areas between the
arms, as would be expected from what we see from the orbital velocity
curves of galaxies, and simulations of galaxies.  If we see the bright
areas between the arms of face-on galaxies but don't see them to the sides
of edge-on galaxies, we know the brightness isn't from stars above or
below the galactic plane. They must be in the plane, like the arms.  This
is actually common sense, John, one of the times common sense doesn't
mislead. You should be jumping all over this. (but no, your spinny thing
OCD fights that)

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#678444

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2018-03-26 16:10 -0700
Message-ID<97432306-845c-4b31-82c8-7c2e6c42c206@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#678429
MM
"We're discussing galaxies, not precessing di"
Well, in my model the disc precesses through rotating the opposite direction every second time, creating these two differently moving spherical sheets of old globular clusters. You don't offer explanations for your stuff so don't bother.

Would be interesting to see the Center of a whirlpool with no rotation, but I don't give you good odds on your non-rotating BH idea.

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#678481

Frommoroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Date2018-03-27 04:48 +0000
Message-ID<p9cie3$g1f$2@pcls7.std.com>
In reply to#678444
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>MM
>"We're discussing galaxies, not precessing di"
>Well, in my model

You don't even have a model. Just animations and pictures.

>Would be interesting to see the Center of a whirlpool with no rotation, 

The eyes of major hurricanes often have calm, clear weather.

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#678486

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2018-03-27 04:26 -0700
Message-ID<73d17831-4d31-4e58-97b6-30d90b6f7d98@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#678481
MM
"

The eyes of major hurricanes often have calm, clear weather. "

So your 'position '
is that BHs could rotate
Or could not rotate
And galaxies don't have a definitive period.

But these guys and their Billion-year rotation for disc galaxies no matter what size-
They're wrong, then, apparently, Mikey?

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#678489

Frommoroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Date2018-03-27 12:02 +0000
Message-ID<p9dbsa$q29$2@pcls7.std.com>
In reply to#678486
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>MM
>"

>The eyes of major hurricanes often have calm, clear weather. "

>So your 'position '
>is that BHs could rotate
>Or could not rotate
>And galaxies don't have a definitive period.

Now you're starting to catch on!

>But these guys and their Billion-year rotation for disc galaxies no 
>matter what size-
>They're wrong, then, apparently, Mikey?

Nope. You're wrong.  As usual.  The _outside edges_ of disk galaxies were
found to have a billion year rotation rate, no matter what size.
A rather interesting finding.

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#678491

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2018-03-27 05:35 -0700
Message-ID<4128929a-c425-4af3-8d64-d32152adbffe@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#678489
 MM
"The _outside edges_ of disk galaxies were 
found to have a billion year rotation rate, no matter what size. 
A rather interesting finding. "

Okay. 
So let's just talk about the outside edges.
They form a CIRCLE.
Now.
This circle is at the same Center as the spherical, double-layered halo of old globular clusters.

So you have a turning circle within a double-layer, each layer with a different flow, sphere.

My explanation is that the disc is precessing through the space, one side rotating one way, then the other side, the other. 

If you reject this, you must have a better argument. Please put it forward if you like.

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#678544

Frommoroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Date2018-03-27 19:08 +0000
Message-ID<p9e4s9$bpp$2@pcls7.std.com>
In reply to#678491
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

> MM
>"The _outside edges_ of disk galaxies were 
>found to have a billion year rotation rate, no matter what size. 
>A rather interesting finding. "

>Okay. 
>So let's just talk about the outside edges.
>They form a CIRCLE.
>Now.

>This circle is at the same Center as the spherical, double-layered
>halo of old globular clusters.

>So you have a turning circle within a double-layer,
>each layer with a different flow, sphere.

I don't know how much of this is true and how much is your misinterpretation
of something, but go on.

>My explanation is that the disc is precessing through the space,

But that explains nothing, because you don't have any model of anything.

>If you reject this, you must have a better argument. Please put it
>forward if you like.

See the astronomer's galaxy models.

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#678602

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2018-03-27 18:41 -0700
Message-ID<ae2cd7eb-042d-4e66-beba-4d6156f0ce53@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#678544
MM
"

I don't know how much of this is true and how much is your misinterpretation 
of something, but go on. "

Why would you not knowing anything be remarkable?

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#678617

Frommoroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Date2018-03-28 02:56 +0000
Message-ID<p9f097$gnr$2@pcls7.std.com>
In reply to#678602
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>MM
>"

>I don't know how much of this is true and how much is your misinterpretation 
>of something, but go on. "

>Why would you not knowing anything be remarkable?

No, it's you misinterpreting something that's not remarkable.  Like here,
you misinterpreted what I wrote.  And just today, you implied that all
galaxies rotate as a unit once in a billion years when you were already
told that's the outer edge's rate, the inner parts rotate at a different
rate, much like a hurricane. And you wrote that atoms are round when you
were previously told that most aren't. Shall I go on?

So when you write something about a double layered sphere of globular
clusters, which I don't know about, I have to ask myself, is there really
a double layered sphere of globular clusters or did John misunderstand
something *again*?  Which is why I wrote that sentence.

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#678818

From"reber G=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com>
Date2018-03-28 15:16 -0700
Message-ID<39320296-e8ff-4af0-a5cc-871008ec4ab2@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#678602
On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 6:41:23 PM UTC-7, john wrote:
> MM
> "
> 
> I don't know how much of this is true and how much is your misinterpretation 
> of something, but go on. "
> 
> Why would you not knowing anything be remarkable?

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#678526

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2018-03-27 18:04 +0000
Message-ID<p9e13d$16ki$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#678486
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> wrote:
> MM
> "
> 
> The eyes of major hurricanes often have calm, clear weather. "
> 
> So your 'position '
> is that BHs could rotate
> Or could not rotate

Yes of course. And the rotation of the black hole is not tied or certainly
not the same as the rotation of the stuff outside it. 

> And galaxies don't have a definitive period.

Disk galaxies, which make up only a fraction of the galaxies around, have a
roughly common period for their perimeters, within a factor of two or so.
The period for the perimeters is much different than the period for the
stuff inside that perimeter. That is, galaxies do not rotated as solid
disks. This should be obvious because spiral arms cannot even FORM if the
galaxy rotates like a disk. 

> 
> But these guys and their Billion-year rotation for disc galaxies no matter what size-
> They're wrong, then, apparently, Mikey?
> 



-- 
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#678619

Frommoroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Date2018-03-28 03:01 +0000
Message-ID<p9f0hd$gnr$3@pcls7.std.com>
In reply to#678486
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>MM
>"

>The eyes of major hurricanes often have calm, clear weather. "

>So your 'position '
>is that BHs could rotate
>Or could not rotate
>And galaxies don't have a definitive period.

What's the rotation period of the solar system?

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#678669

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2018-03-28 05:19 -0700
Message-ID<c0a3d8b1-be71-4a65-855e-967600ff9566@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#678619
MM
"
What's the rotation period of the solar system? 
"
So what's the billion-year finding, then?

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#678670

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2018-03-28 12:30 +0000
Message-ID<p9g1t0$elu$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#678669
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> wrote:
> MM
> "
> What's the rotation period of the solar system? 
> "
> So what's the billion-year finding, then?
> 

The perimeter. Not further in. 
Said to you a half dozen times and you still ask again. 
Wearing a lead foil helmet?

-- 
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#678691

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2018-03-28 07:00 -0700
Message-ID<c91dc833-58dc-470e-a80f-59dc870e80ab@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#678670
Odd 
> " 
> So what's the billion-year finding, then? 
> 

The perimeter. Not further in. 
Said to you a half dozen times and you still ask again. 
Wearing a lead foil helmet? 
"
The perimeter. So, other stuff inside can go faster and different directions, but the perimeter is 10^9 years.

Can we compare this to a beehive and arguing that you can't say what its rotation is, even though you can see it, because bees are flying around in it?

The period of disc galaxies is a billion years. Get over it, Odd.

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#678692

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2018-03-28 07:08 -0700
Message-ID<c66d49ff-4fca-40f5-97b1-c2a8502211bc@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#678691
This one billion thing means that you can only spin a structure like a galaxy at one frequency 

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#678721

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2018-03-28 16:09 +0000
Message-ID<p9geod$1778$2@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#678692
john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> wrote:
> This one billion thing means that you can only spin a structure like a
> galaxy at one frequency 
> 

No.

-- 
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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