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Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter)

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  Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) Archimedes Plutonium <plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 14:05 -0700
    Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 16:36 -0500
      Red Spot grows and changes in dimension Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) Archimedes Plutonium <plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 15:04 -0700
        Re: Red Spot grows and changes in dimension Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 17:12 -0500
          Re: Red Spot grows and changes in dimension Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-07-13 19:47 -0500
            cloud as a living habitat Re: Red Spot grows and changes in dimension Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) Archimedes Plutonium <plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 21:56 -0700
              algae colonies that may thrive on Jupiter, red, white, is blue or green?? Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) Archimedes Plutonium <plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 22:40 -0700
    Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 16:14 -0700
      Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 16:18 -0700
    iron oxide of Mars? Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) Archimedes Plutonium <plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 17:34 -0700
    Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 22:28 -0700
      marrying the idea that bands are organic molecules and idea of algae for Jupiter Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) Archimedes Plutonium <plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 23:02 -0700
        Re: marrying the idea that bands are organic molecules and idea of algae for Jupiter Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-07-14 00:53 -0700
          algae growing on Europa and seeding Jupiter Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) Archimedes Plutonium <plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com> - 2016-07-14 01:53 -0700
          Europa has algae lines in the water and warmth Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) Archimedes Plutonium <plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com> - 2016-07-14 13:57 -0700
            Europa has algae lines in the water and warmth Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) Archimedes Plutonium <plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com> - 2016-07-14 23:26 -0700
              Jupiter moons with algae means first colonies Archimedes Plutonium <plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com> - 2016-07-15 01:17 -0700
                color-driven conclusion that life is on Jupiter Re: Jupiter moons with algae means first colonies Archimedes Plutonium <plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com> - 2016-07-15 14:21 -0700
                  Re: color-driven conclusion that life is on Jupiter Re: Jupiter moons with algae means first colonies Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 13:02 -0500
                Re: Jupiter moons with algae means first colonies "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 17:15 -0700
          Re: marrying the idea that bands are organic molecules and idea of algae for Jupiter Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter) noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-07-14 14:06 -0700

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#589111 — Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter)

Now, I tried a theory of the red spot more than a decade ago, perhaps in the middle or late 1990s, saying that the Red Spot was some foreign body that collided or was swallowed by Jupiter, leaving behind a red tinted spot.

Now, trouble with that theory is what elements or compounds in Nature leave a "red color"? I can think of the red sandstones in Utah and western states. So is the Red Spot of Jupiter, that of iron with red color.

You see, the problem with the current accepted view of the red spot as a storm or cloud, is how does a storm get that red color.

You see, the problem is Explain the Red.

Explain the Red.

Do storm gases have red? Not that I know of.

That leaves the only explanation of a natural cause as that of iron, but iron in a collision is not red in color.

That leaves me with the only other natural red color in Nature-- biology and algae seas as the red algae.

Laughable, and laugh all you want, but give me some other Natural substance that can give us the Red that we see in Jupiter's Red Spot.

The hardest thing about Jupiter's Red Spot is to account for that "red color".

So, I too am repulsed by the idea of a red algae sea, but logic says, unless I can get a "red Natural color" from something else, I have to accept red algae.

AP

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#589115

On 7/13/2016 4:05 PM, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
> You see, the problem is Explain the Red.
>
> Explain the Red.
>
> Do storm gases have red? Not that I know of.
>
> That leaves the only explanation of a natural cause as that of iron, but iron in a collision is not red in color.
>
> That leaves me with the only other natural red color in Nature-- biology and algae seas as the red algae.

Had you bothered to Google "Why is Jupiter's red spot red?" you would 
learn that "the only other natural red color in Nature" is not as 
limited as you would think.

- red phosphorous
- sulfurous compounds
- organic (not biochemical, just organic) compounds

-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#589122 — Red Spot grows and changes in dimension Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter)

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 4:36:09 PM UTC-5, Odd Bodkin wrote:
> On 7/13/2016 4:05 PM, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
> > You see, the problem is Explain the Red.
> >
> > Explain the Red.
> >
> > Do storm gases have red? Not that I know of.
> >
> > That leaves the only explanation of a natural cause as that of iron, but iron in a collision is not red in color.
> >
> > That leaves me with the only other natural red color in Nature-- biology and algae seas as the red algae.
> 
> Had you bothered to Google "Why is Jupiter's red spot red?" you would 
> learn that "the only other natural red color in Nature" is not as 
> limited as you would think.
> 
> - red phosphorous
> - sulfurous compounds
> - organic (not biochemical, just organic) compounds
> 
> -- 
> Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Good input from a failed physics student that goes on to get a degree in philosophy, because physics is over his head. Good input since I was too lazy to google wikipedia. Now, that is something google should do-- is buy Wikipedia to make Google have the appearance of "educated and wisdom."

But anyway, back to the philosopher who should avoid posting to sci.physics because he has no physics abilities.

The trouble with phosphorus, sulfur is that the Red Spot as noted, grows sometimes and retreats and then grows back. Now that growth and retreat is accountable as a storm grows and retreats, but for something of Natural color red of phosphorus or sulfur, we cannot envision how they would grow and retreat.

That leaves me with the only logic of something like Red Algae such as what they have in the Mediterranean Sea in Europe. No storm cloud has a natural red color that grows and retreats.

Now Venus should have a Red Spot since it has many storms, but it does not, only Jupiter.

So, logic eliminates phosphorus and sulfur, and leaves behind the repulsive conclusion of living bacteria composing a huge Red Sea of Algae. I am repulsed by this idea, but I cannot find any natural element or compound that gives that red color and changes in growth.

P.S. you and moron moroney should infest a philosophy newsgroup, for both of you are failures of physics, and have not a stitch of logic to stand on. You flood my threads with your prattling nonsense. So go find a philosophy newsgroup.

AP

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#589124 — Re: Red Spot grows and changes in dimension Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter)

On 7/13/2016 5:04 PM, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
> Good input from a failed physics student that goes on to get a degree in philosophy,

Bad guess on your part. I was never a physics major, always a philosophy 
and mathematics major, so there was no failure in physics involved.

> because physics is over his head. Good input since I was too lazyto google wikipedia.

Actually, the information Google surfaced wasn't from Wikipedia. But as 
you say, you were too lazy to even check THAT, which was my point to 
begin with. I believe that anybody who is too lazy to google information 
should avoid posting to sci.physics. Do you agree?

> Now, that is something google should do-- is buy Wikipedia to make Google have the
> appearance of "educated and wisdom."
>
> But anyway, back to the philosopher who should avoid posting to sci.physics because
> he has no physics abilities.
>
> The trouble with phosphorus, sulfur is that the Red Spot as noted, grows sometimes and
> retreats and then grows back. Now that growth and retreat is accountable as a storm
> grows and retreats,

Exactly.

> but for something of Natural color red of phosphorus or sulfur, we cannot envision how
> they would grow and retreat.

A growing and retreating storm that involves a lot of red phosphorous, 
sulfur, and other red organic compounds.

>
> That leaves me with the only logic of something like Red Algae such as what they have
> in the Mediterranean Sea in Europe. No storm cloud has a natural red color that grows and retreats.

Not on Earth. Of course not. There's not as much red phosphorous, sulfur 
and organic compounds to be swept up by Mediterranean storms. But much 
different on Jupiter.

But here's the key: You don't have to rely on logic, when all you need 
is spectrographic data on the Red Spot of Jupiter. What is it made of, 
from spectrographic data? You see? Experimental data is ALWAYS superior 
to reason and logic.


-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#589148 — Re: Red Spot grows and changes in dimension Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter)

On 7/13/2016 5:12 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote:
> On 7/13/2016 5:04 PM, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

>> The trouble with phosphorus, sulfur is that the Red Spot as noted,
>> grows sometimes and
>> retreats and then grows back. Now that growth and retreat is
>> accountable as a storm
>> grows and retreats,
>
> Exactly.
>
>> but for something of Natural color red of phosphorus or sulfur, we
>> cannot envision how
>> they would grow and retreat.
>
> A growing and retreating storm that involves a lot of red phosphorous,
> sulfur, and other red organic compounds.

red phosphorous is too reactive. Sulfur too.

wiki says;
The atmosphere of Jupiter is the largest planetary atmosphere in the 
Solar System. It is mostly made of molecular hydrogen and helium in 
roughly solar proportions; other chemical compounds are present only in 
small amounts and include methane, ammonia, hydrogen sulfide and water. 
Although water is thought to reside deep in the atmosphere, its directly 
measured concentration is very low. The nitrogen, sulfur, and noble gas 
abundances in Jupiter's atmosphere exceed solar values by a factor of 
about three.[1]

The lowest layer, the troposphere, has a complicated system of clouds 
and hazes, comprising layers of ammonia, ammonium hydrosulfide and 
water.[4] The upper ammonia clouds visible at Jupiter's surface are 
organized in a dozen zonal bands parallel to the equator and are bounded 
by powerful zonal atmospheric flows (winds) known as jets. The bands 
alternate in color: the dark bands are called belts, while light ones 
are called zones. Zones, which are colder than belts, correspond to 
upwellings, while belts mark descending air.[ The zones' lighter color 
is believed to result from ammonia ice; what gives the belts their 
darker colors is not known with certainty.[5] The origins of the banded 
structure and jets are not well understood, though two models exist. The 
shallow model holds that they are surface phenomena overlaying a stable 
interior. In the deep model, the bands and jets are just surface 
manifestations of deep circulation in Jupiter's mantle of *molecular 
hydrogen which is organized into cylinders*



>
> But here's the key: You don't have to rely on logic, when all you need
> is spectrographic data on the Red Spot of Jupiter. What is it made of,
> from spectrographic data? You see? Experimental data is ALWAYS superior
> to reason and logic.
>
>

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#589184 — cloud as a living habitat Re: Red Spot grows and changes in dimension Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter)

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 7:47:20 PM UTC-5, Sergio wrote:
(snipped)
> red phosphorous is too reactive. Sulfur too.
> 
> wiki says;
> The atmosphere of Jupiter is the largest planetary atmosphere in the 
> Solar System. It is mostly made of molecular hydrogen and helium in 
> roughly solar proportions; other chemical compounds are present only in 
> small amounts and include methane, ammonia, hydrogen sulfide and water. 
> Although water is thought to reside deep in the atmosphere, its directly 
> measured concentration is very low. The nitrogen, sulfur, and noble gas 
> abundances in Jupiter's atmosphere exceed solar values by a factor of 
> about three.[1]
> 
> The lowest layer, the troposphere, has a complicated system of clouds 
> and hazes, comprising layers of ammonia, ammonium hydrosulfide and 
> water.[4] The upper ammonia clouds visible at Jupiter's surface are 
> organized in a dozen zonal bands parallel to the equator and are bounded 
> by powerful zonal atmospheric flows (winds) known as jets. The bands 
> alternate in color: the dark bands are called belts, while light ones 
> are called zones. Zones, which are colder than belts, correspond to 
> upwellings, while belts mark descending air.[ The zones' lighter color 
> is believed to result from ammonia ice; what gives the belts their 
> darker colors is not known with certainty.[5] The origins of the banded 
> structure and jets are not well understood, though two models exist. The 
> shallow model holds that they are surface phenomena overlaying a stable 
> interior. In the deep model, the bands and jets are just surface 
> manifestations of deep circulation in Jupiter's mantle of *molecular 
> hydrogen which is organized into cylinders*
> 

Do you have any information on the changes undergone by the Red Spot. Long time ago I read about the changes, in size, in color over the centuries of watching this Red Spot.

The constancy would suggest it is not a weather condition. But the changes in structure would suggest a weather condition. But better yet, the explanation of a living mass of algae would explain the constancy and explain the changes in structure.

If I recall correctly there is a "White Spot on Jupiter" and if I recall, there is a white colored algae, although I have never seen such.

Now, all can and will agree that terminating Juno is to plunge into Jupiter so that any Earth bacteria or organism does not end up on the Jovian moons. So, here, we have the human intellect thinking reasonable about the end fate of Juno spacecraft, but when that human intellect is asked to consider that Jupiter already has life, a sea of algae as the Red Spot, then, that reasoning and judgement about algae already been on Jupiter itself is met by those so called reasonable persons judging Juno end fate and judging Jupiter as already with algae, as crazy.

What I am saying, is that a ordinary common thinker would agree that Juno can pollute the Jovian system with Earth creatures, but that same ordinary common thinker would instantly be repulsed and revulsion at the suggestion that Jupiter already has a Earth invasion of algae, which arrived on a algae carried by solar winds to Jupiter. Or carried to Jupiter by a meteor that struck Earth and was lifted into outer Space.

How can algae thrive on Jupiter? Well, if they get their energy from the Sun, there is plenty of carbon to synthesize.

And if Jupiter Red Spot is really algae, then we have the answer to what was first life on Earth.

Now, also, one of my theories is that energetic photons are a wave, and what is on that wave is DNA, sort of like "flying DNA" as photons. So that in this theory, we need no algae to travel from Earth to Jupiter, but rather, a energetic photon that gets "stopped on Jupiter" and its DNA or RNA blueprint gushes out and starts to make a algae colony.

And, we ought to begin to imagine that a body of water is not needed to make a colony of life, but that life can form in atmosphere of clouds. A living cloud as a home.

AP

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#589188 — algae colonies that may thrive on Jupiter, red, white, is blue or green?? Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter)

Alright, so, the Great White Spot on Jupiter is directly below the Great Red Spot. Now, I have a question-- is the great white spot as persistant and constant as the red one? Has the white one been there as long as the red spot has been there?

Now looking at colors of Algae blooms we have a rhodo for red, a cyano for purple, a chloro for green, a dino for salmon and various other colors for various species of algae. 

Now the Red Spot on Jupiter often turns from red to salmon, so maybe the different algae species kick in at different times.

And perhaps white algae species is below the Jupiter Red Spot for a home for themselves.

Now has anyone seen a Great Purple Spot or Great Green Spot on Jupiter or any other planet? I think Saturn is too far away from the Sun for algae.

And if Jupiter is having many algae colonies, it would be hard to imagine that the moons of Jupiter are free of algae.

Now the scientists of Juno, reckon that a crash landing into Jupiter will kill all Earth microbes on board. But I have a sense that a crash landing may just propel some of those microbes into the atmosphere where they may thrive into a colony.

AP

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#589132

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 2:06:03 PM UTC-7, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
> Now, I tried a theory of the red spot more than a decade ago, perhaps in the middle or late 1990s, saying that the Red Spot was some foreign body that collided or was swallowed by Jupiter, leaving behind a red tinted spot.
> 
> Now, trouble with that theory is what elements or compounds in Nature leave a "red color"? I can think of the red sandstones in Utah and western states. So is the Red Spot of Jupiter, that of iron with red color.
> 
> You see, the problem with the current accepted view of the red spot as a storm or cloud, is how does a storm get that red color.
> 
> You see, the problem is Explain the Red.
> 
> Explain the Red.
> 
> Do storm gases have red? Not that I know of.
> 
> That leaves the only explanation of a natural cause as that of iron, but iron in a collision is not red in color.
> 
> That leaves me with the only other natural red color in Nature-- biology and algae seas as the red algae.
> 
> Laughable, and laugh all you want, but give me some other Natural substance that can give us the Red that we see in Jupiter's Red Spot.
> 
> The hardest thing about Jupiter's Red Spot is to account for that "red color".
> 
> So, I too am repulsed by the idea of a red algae sea, but logic says, unless I can get a "red Natural color" from something else, I have to accept red algae.
> 
> AP

Red Spot created by swilling gas storm.Think tornado.It might be just 850 years old.TreBert

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#589133

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 4:14:36 PM UTC-7, reber g=emc^2 wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 2:06:03 PM UTC-7, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
> > Now, I tried a theory of the red spot more than a decade ago, perhaps in the middle or late 1990s, saying that the Red Spot was some foreign body that collided or was swallowed by Jupiter, leaving behind a red tinted spot.
> > 
> > Now, trouble with that theory is what elements or compounds in Nature leave a "red color"? I can think of the red sandstones in Utah and western states. So is the Red Spot of Jupiter, that of iron with red color.
> > 
> > You see, the problem with the current accepted view of the red spot as a storm or cloud, is how does a storm get that red color.
> > 
> > You see, the problem is Explain the Red.
> > 
> > Explain the Red.
> > 
> > Do storm gases have red? Not that I know of.
> > 
> > That leaves the only explanation of a natural cause as that of iron, but iron in a collision is not red in color.
> > 
> > That leaves me with the only other natural red color in Nature-- biology and algae seas as the red algae.
> > 
> > Laughable, and laugh all you want, but give me some other Natural substance that can give us the Red that we see in Jupiter's Red Spot.
> > 
> > The hardest thing about Jupiter's Red Spot is to account for that "red color".
> > 
> > So, I too am repulsed by the idea of a red algae sea, but logic says, unless I can get a "red Natural color" from something else, I have to accept red algae.
> > 
> > AP
> 
> Red Spot created by swilling gas storm.Think tornado.It might be just 850 years old.TreBert

Its red the same way Earth is blue.Think Mars is also red Uranus is green etc.Trebert

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#589144 — iron oxide of Mars? Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter)

Now, if we look at the planets pictures-- true pictures, not an artist simulation, we see that Venus has no red spots but rather shrouded in a yellow atmosphere. Is there a redspot below the atmosphere on Venus? Probably not.

If we look to the other planets, can we get a "red" out of them? Look at Mars, the red planet from iron oxide and we place Mars up against the Jupiter red spot. Do they match up in color?

So, in my 1990s speculation on Jupiter Red Spot was to say that a Mars type of object was swallowed up by Jupiter and leaving behind the trace outline of the planet as iron oxide.

Trouble with that idea is that the Jupiter Red Spot grows and diminishes, even changing color from red to that of black.

So, what that causes for me, is a idea that the Jupiter Red Spot is not a weather storm, but rather, somewhat repulsive, the idea that living algae causes the Red Spot. Perhaps algae that forms a cloud itself or embedded in a weather cloud.

How much water does Jupiter have? Are some of the clouds water clouds?

Now Saturn is too far away from the Sun to have algae, but Jupiter would be close enough.

AP

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#589187

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 2:06:03 PM UTC-7, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
> Now, I tried a theory of the red spot more than a decade ago, perhaps in the
> middle or late 1990s, saying that the Red Spot was some foreign body that
> collided or was swallowed by Jupiter, leaving behind a red tinted spot.

  That was before the comet Shoemaker-Levy whacked it, and then we could see that foreign material didn't generate red spots, right?

> Now, trouble with that theory is what elements or compounds in Nature leave a
> "red color"? I can think of the red sandstones in Utah and western states.

  Also Georgia clay, ruby, garnet, carnelian, and other minerals.

  But I don't think it's any of those.

> So is the Red Spot of Jupiter, that of iron with red color.

  Of course not because iron or sandstone or the others won't stay suspended in a storm for hundreds of years, even one bigger than the Earth.

> You see, the problem with the current accepted view of the red spot as a
> storm or cloud, is how does a storm get that red color.
> 
> You see, the problem is Explain the Red.
> 
> Explain the Red.
> 
> Do storm gases have red? Not that I know of.

  Not on Earth, no, but Jupiter isn't Earth. Jupiter has collected a lot of gases that aren't stable for long periods in Earth's atmosphere, and certainly don't collect into big concentrated clouds.

> That leaves the only explanation of a natural cause as that of iron, but iron
> in a collision is not red in color.

  I'm sure you really meant red iron oxide, right?

> That leaves me with the only other natural red color in Nature-- biology and
> algae seas as the red algae.
> 
> Laughable, and laugh all you want, but give me some other Natural substance
> that can give us the Red that we see in Jupiter's Red Spot.
> 
> The hardest thing about Jupiter's Red Spot is to account for that "red color".
> 
> So, I too am repulsed by the idea of a red algae sea, but logic says, unless
> I can get a "red Natural color" from something else, I have to accept red
> algae.

  I don't think it's all that laughable, or repulsive. Also, "Natural substance" can be more than just rocks and gases.

  Couple of points.

  First, in true color images, the Spot isn't really the red of sandstone, iron oxide, or even rubies and stuff- it's more of an orangey-brown:

http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/images/507898main_PIA04866-full_full.jpg

  Also notice that the North Equatorial Belt is a much deeper orange-brown (to my eyes the same color but more saturated), and the South Equatorial Belt (that the Red Spot sort of rides along) is also deeper in the same color as the Spot but not so deep as the North Belt.

  That suggests to me that whatever gives the Spot and the two Belts their colors is the same stuff, concentrated in those regions because of the relative motions of the Belts and their surroundings and the relative temperatures, and that the Spot has stolen much of whatever it is from the Southern Belt.

  Second, you probably know about the Miller-Urey experiment, where water, methane, ammonia, and hydrogen gases approximating Earth's early atmosphere were put into a closed vessel and subjected to ultraviolet light and electric sparks. The gases combined to produce a stew of chemicals including amino acids, and as the experiment ran that stew turned yellow, then that same orangey-brown color. Other people have done similar experiments adding hydrogen sulfide, carbon dioxide and other stuff, but the resulting stew is always orangey-brown.

  All of those gases are present in Jupiter's atmosphere, and lightning has been observed in both Bands and the Spot.

  So, until somebody spends enough money to send a spectrophotometer to Jupiter to see what the Bands and the Spot are made of, or figures out how to take samples for analysis, a good guess as to the color of the Bands and the Spot is a concentration of tiny droplets of random organic goo made out of lightning-struck gases.

  If that's true, then those gases have been forming in Jupiter's atmosphere for a very long time, likely as long as it took for life to evolve on Earth. Even if the goo didn't evolve into algae on its own there (because there's nowhere for water to form pools or oceans), we have some evidence that algae cells from Earth's oceans can get pulled into the atmosphere during Earthly storms and carried right up to the top of our atmosphere, and it's a small leap to imagine that the Solar Wind can strip them off and carry them outward, and that a few cells might survive long enough to fall into Jupiter and eat the goo there.

  So why does the Spot change color? If the algae can't spend its whole reproductive life cycle aloft but instead eventually falls into Jupiter and dies, it can be more or less constantly "recharged" by new deliveries from Earth. Variations in the Solar Wind and whatnot would affect the delivery rate, and if the algae die off at a constant rate, there could be long dry spells where no new cells make the trip and the Spot loses color. Notice the Bands' colors aren't constant either...

  I responded because I like to poke holes in silly ideas. Not to make the people who come up with silly ideas feel bad, but as practice for poking holes in *my* silly ideas.

  Anyway, sorry, but I can't poke any usefully large holes in this idea. It may be true rather than silly, or maybe in spite of being silly. I don't know of any Laws Of Physics forbidding the Universe from doing things we mere humans consider silly. For example, it invented us humans...


  Mark L. Fergerson

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#589194 — marrying the idea that bands are organic molecules and idea of algae for Jupiter Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter)

On Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 12:28:30 AM UTC-5, nu...@bid.nes wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 2:06:03 PM UTC-7, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
> > Now, I tried a theory of the red spot more than a decade ago, perhaps in the
> > middle or late 1990s, saying that the Red Spot was some foreign body that
> > collided or was swallowed by Jupiter, leaving behind a red tinted spot.
> 
>   That was before the comet Shoemaker-Levy whacked it, and then we could see that foreign material didn't generate red spots, right?
> 
> > Now, trouble with that theory is what elements or compounds in Nature leave a
> > "red color"? I can think of the red sandstones in Utah and western states.
> 
>   Also Georgia clay, ruby, garnet, carnelian, and other minerals.
> 
>   But I don't think it's any of those.
> 
> > So is the Red Spot of Jupiter, that of iron with red color.
> 
>   Of course not because iron or sandstone or the others won't stay suspended in a storm for hundreds of years, even one bigger than the Earth.
> 
> > You see, the problem with the current accepted view of the red spot as a
> > storm or cloud, is how does a storm get that red color.
> > 
> > You see, the problem is Explain the Red.
> > 
> > Explain the Red.
> > 
> > Do storm gases have red? Not that I know of.
> 
>   Not on Earth, no, but Jupiter isn't Earth. Jupiter has collected a lot of gases that aren't stable for long periods in Earth's atmosphere, and certainly don't collect into big concentrated clouds.
> 
> > That leaves the only explanation of a natural cause as that of iron, but iron
> > in a collision is not red in color.
> 
>   I'm sure you really meant red iron oxide, right?
> 

yes, iron oxide

> > That leaves me with the only other natural red color in Nature-- biology and
> > algae seas as the red algae.
> > 
> > Laughable, and laugh all you want, but give me some other Natural substance
> > that can give us the Red that we see in Jupiter's Red Spot.
> > 
> > The hardest thing about Jupiter's Red Spot is to account for that "red color".
> > 
> > So, I too am repulsed by the idea of a red algae sea, but logic says, unless
> > I can get a "red Natural color" from something else, I have to accept red
> > algae.
> 
>   I don't think it's all that laughable, or repulsive. Also, "Natural substance" can be more than just rocks and gases.
> 
>   Couple of points.
> 
>   First, in true color images, the Spot isn't really the red of sandstone, iron oxide, or even rubies and stuff- it's more of an orangey-brown:
> 
> http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/images/507898main_PIA04866-full_full.jpg
> 
>   Also notice that the North Equatorial Belt is a much deeper orange-brown (to my eyes the same color but more saturated), and the South Equatorial Belt (that the Red Spot sort of rides along) is also deeper in the same color as the Spot but not so deep as the North Belt.
> 

Alright, good good good, let me blend together your ideas with mine. So that your organic molecule production is food and home to my algae.

Temperature is a problem at -100 Centigrade. But I think some algae can evolve to live in -100 C.

>   That suggests to me that whatever gives the Spot and the two Belts their colors is the same stuff, concentrated in those regions because of the relative motions of the Belts and their surroundings and the relative temperatures, and that the Spot has stolen much of whatever it is from the Southern Belt.
> 
>   Second, you probably know about the Miller-Urey experiment, where water, methane, ammonia, and hydrogen gases approximating Earth's early atmosphere were put into a closed vessel and subjected to ultraviolet light and electric sparks. The gases combined to produce a stew of chemicals including amino acids, and as the experiment ran that stew turned yellow, then that same orangey-brown color. Other people have done similar experiments adding hydrogen sulfide, carbon dioxide and other stuff, but the resulting stew is always orangey-brown.
> 
>   All of those gases are present in Jupiter's atmosphere, and lightning has been observed in both Bands and the Spot.
> 

Yes, I like your ideas here, and think we can combine yours with mine to make a solid case for life existing on Jupiter.

>   So, until somebody spends enough money to send a spectrophotometer to Jupiter to see what the Bands and the Spot are made of, or figures out how to take samples for analysis, a good guess as to the color of the Bands and the Spot is a concentration of tiny droplets of random organic goo made out of lightning-struck gases.
> 
>   If that's true, then those gases have been forming in Jupiter's atmosphere for a very long time, likely as long as it took for life to evolve on Earth. Even if the goo didn't evolve into algae on its own there (because there's nowhere for water to form pools or oceans), we have some evidence that algae cells from Earth's oceans can get pulled into the atmosphere during Earthly storms and carried right up to the top of our atmosphere, and it's a small leap to imagine that the Solar Wind can strip them off and carry them outward, and that a few cells might survive long enough to fall into Jupiter and eat the goo there.
> 
>   So why does the Spot change color? If the algae can't spend its whole reproductive life cycle aloft but instead eventually falls into Jupiter and dies, it can be more or less constantly "recharged" by new deliveries from Earth. Variations in the Solar Wind and whatnot would affect the delivery rate, and if the algae die off at a constant rate, there could be long dry spells where no new cells make the trip and the Spot loses color. Notice the Bands' colors aren't constant either...
> 
>   I responded because I like to poke holes in silly ideas. Not to make the people who come up with silly ideas feel bad, but as practice for poking holes in *my* silly ideas.
> 
>   Anyway, sorry, but I can't poke any usefully large holes in this idea. It may be true rather than silly, or maybe in spite of being silly. I don't know of any Laws Of Physics forbidding the Universe from doing things we mere humans consider silly. For example, it invented us humans...
> 
> 
>   Mark L. Fergerson

Well, the idea that everyone here on Earth thinks is good-- do not pollute the Jovian moons with microbes aboard Juno and this slamming Juno into Jupiter to sterilize the environment-- no-one thinks that is silly, so, no-one should think that Jupiter already has life in algae blooms is silly.

So, is there a purple spot for cyano algae, or green spots of chloro algae? I do see some strokes of blue and green near the Great Red Spot.

Do algae like living together? 

Now, near the poles of Jupiter there is a absence of colors, which makes me think that if it was all weather related and storms, then the poles should have color also.

And the different bands of color a symmetry of north and south hemisphere would be that of temperature bands.

Now this Jupiter algae, if that is true, then the color is not necessarily blooms but just reflection of light, and some are blooms.

AP

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#589199 — Re: marrying the idea that bands are organic molecules and idea of algae for Jupiter Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter)

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 11:02:57 PM UTC-7, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
> On Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 12:28:30 AM UTC-5, nu...@bid.nes wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 2:06:03 PM UTC-7, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

(snip to the points that need attention)

> >   Couple of points.
> > 
> >   First, in true color images, the Spot isn't really the red of sandstone,
> > iron oxide, or even rubies and stuff- it's more of an orangey-brown:
> > 
> > http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/images/507898main_PIA04866-full_full.jpg
> > 
> >   Also notice that the North Equatorial Belt is a much deeper orange-brown
> > (to my eyes the same color but more saturated), and the South Equatorial
> > Belt (that the Red Spot sort of rides along) is also deeper in the same
> > color as the Spot but not so deep as the North Belt.
> 
> Alright, good good good, let me blend together your ideas with mine. So that
> your organic molecule production is food and home to my algae.
> 
> Temperature is a problem at -100 Centigrade. But I think some algae can
> evolve to live in -100 C.

  Most algae, or anything else we're likely to recognize as life, usually needs liquid water. There are a few exceptions though. More below.

  As of five years ago, temperatures in the Spot were measured (from Earth!) at an *average* of -160C, BUT the deepest-colored parts were measured to be 3-4 degrees warmer than their immediate surroundings.

http://www.space.com/8052-secrets-jupiter-great-red-spot-revealed-weather-map.html

  I suggest that the resolution of the instrument was insufficient to show that there are regions much warmer than that average. Those regions may be tiny compared to the whole of the Spot but remember two Earths fit inside it. Maybe most of the color is from dead or frozen algae or just spores blowing around in the cold parts, but some of the darker places should be warm enough for live algae.

> So, is there a purple spot for cyano algae, or green spots of chloro algae? I
> do see some strokes of blue and green near the Great Red Spot.

  I don't see why not. It would depend on the details of exactly how warm the warm parts get, what chemicals are available, and like that. But, since most of the color is that orangey-red, whatever is that color must dominate the whole planet, likely forming the basis of its ecosystem (assuming any of this is true and there *is* an ecosystem).

> Do algae like living together? 

  Not really. Different types of algae can be not just different species but different orders of life. They might need very different conditions to thrive in but sometimes they can struggle along in the same environment. Some don't even need light and die in the presence of oxygen, but get energy from metabolizing sulfur or even metals.

  On the other hand, there are organisms on Earth that comprise algae in symbiosis with other organisms; lichens, corals, and sea sponges.

  You think your original idea was silly? Hold on-

  It's possible that what we're seeing aren't true algae any more, but algae that learned to live together with some other organism, an extremophile that likes cold, one that also forms spores that traveled to Jupiter, making a combined organism that we don't see on Earth because it doesn't get cold *enough* here.

  We have many cryophile bacteria that could fill the bill like Psychrophiles that can reproduce down to -20 C (that's not a typo- twenty degrees centigrade BELOW freezing!) on Earth, and maybe the famous radiodurans which tolerates very high radiation doses, and also survives extreme cold and vacuum as spores.

> Now, near the poles of Jupiter there is a absence of colors, which makes me
> think that if it was all weather related and storms, then the poles should
> have color also.

  They do, but there's not a lot of sunlight available. Notice the orangey-red is spread evenly, if thinly, over most of the northern third of the planet:

http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/images/507898main_PIA04866-full_full.jpg

 The poles are warm, too:

http://webbtelescope.org/webb_telescope/science_on_the_edge/beyond_the_visible/graphics/compared/jupiter-big.jpg

  But notice that the red color does NOT correlate with all of the warm (brighter red and yellow in the IR image) parts.

  That confirms your guess immediately above.

> And the different bands of color a symmetry of north and south hemisphere
> would be that of temperature bands.

  Some are, some aren't, meaning not all of the color is from just raw chemistry.


  Mark L. Fergerson

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#589201 — algae growing on Europa and seeding Jupiter Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter)

Hi Mark, was looking for a means of proof without landing and scooping up. I read a Ganymede probe was scheduled. Read and saw that Europa is full of lines Linea of the same red-brown as Jupiter Red Spot. So, it maybe that algae are growing on the Jovian moons for billions of years, where tidal flexing and volcanism keeps the moons warm to grow algae, and the spores drft to Jupiter every year seeding Jupiter. Of which some took root of the atmosphere and evolved.

AP

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#589298 — Europa has algae lines in the water and warmth Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter)

On Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 2:53:49 AM UTC-5, nu...@bid.nes wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 11:02:57 PM UTC-7, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 12:28:30 AM UTC-5, nu...@bid.nes wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 2:06:03 PM UTC-7, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
> 
> (snip to the points that need attention)
> 
> > >   Couple of points.
> > > 
> > >   First, in true color images, the Spot isn't really the red of sandstone,
> > > iron oxide, or even rubies and stuff- it's more of an orangey-brown:
> > > 
> > > http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/images/507898main_PIA04866-full_full.jpg
> > > 
> > >   Also notice that the North Equatorial Belt is a much deeper orange-brown
> > > (to my eyes the same color but more saturated), and the South Equatorial
> > > Belt (that the Red Spot sort of rides along) is also deeper in the same
> > > color as the Spot but not so deep as the North Belt.
> > 
> > Alright, good good good, let me blend together your ideas with mine. So that
> > your organic molecule production is food and home to my algae.
> > 
> > Temperature is a problem at -100 Centigrade. But I think some algae can
> > evolve to live in -100 C.
> 
>   Most algae, or anything else we're likely to recognize as life, usually needs liquid water. There are a few exceptions though. More below.
> 
>   As of five years ago, temperatures in the Spot were measured (from Earth!) at an *average* of -160C, BUT the deepest-colored parts were measured to be 3-4 degrees warmer than their immediate surroundings.
> 
> http://www.space.com/8052-secrets-jupiter-great-red-spot-revealed-weather-map.html
> 
>   I suggest that the resolution of the instrument was insufficient to show that there are regions much warmer than that average. Those regions may be tiny compared to the whole of the Spot but remember two Earths fit inside it. Maybe most of the color is from dead or frozen algae or just spores blowing around in the cold parts, but some of the darker places should be warm enough for live algae.
> 
> > So, is there a purple spot for cyano algae, or green spots of chloro algae? I
> > do see some strokes of blue and green near the Great Red Spot.
> 
>   I don't see why not. It would depend on the details of exactly how warm the warm parts get, what chemicals are available, and like that. But, since most of the color is that orangey-red, whatever is that color must dominate the whole planet, likely forming the basis of its ecosystem (assuming any of this is true and there *is* an ecosystem).
> 
> > Do algae like living together? 
> 
>   Not really. Different types of algae can be not just different species but different orders of life. They might need very different conditions to thrive in but sometimes they can struggle along in the same environment. Some don't even need light and die in the presence of oxygen, but get energy from metabolizing sulfur or even metals.
> 
>   On the other hand, there are organisms on Earth that comprise algae in symbiosis with other organisms; lichens, corals, and sea sponges.
> 
>   You think your original idea was silly? Hold on-
> 
>   It's possible that what we're seeing aren't true algae any more, but algae that learned to live together with some other organism, an extremophile that likes cold, one that also forms spores that traveled to Jupiter, making a combined organism that we don't see on Earth because it doesn't get cold *enough* here.
> 
>   We have many cryophile bacteria that could fill the bill like Psychrophiles that can reproduce down to -20 C (that's not a typo- twenty degrees centigrade BELOW freezing!) on Earth, and maybe the famous radiodurans which tolerates very high radiation doses, and also survives extreme cold and vacuum as spores.
> 
> > Now, near the poles of Jupiter there is a absence of colors, which makes me
> > think that if it was all weather related and storms, then the poles should
> > have color also.
> 
>   They do, but there's not a lot of sunlight available. Notice the orangey-red is spread evenly, if thinly, over most of the northern third of the planet:
> 
> http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/images/507898main_PIA04866-full_full.jpg
> 
>  The poles are warm, too:
> 
> http://webbtelescope.org/webb_telescope/science_on_the_edge/beyond_the_visible/graphics/compared/jupiter-big.jpg
> 
>   But notice that the red color does NOT correlate with all of the warm (brighter red and yellow in the IR image) parts.
> 
>   That confirms your guess immediately above.
> 
> > And the different bands of color a symmetry of north and south hemisphere
> > would be that of temperature bands.
> 
>   Some are, some aren't, meaning not all of the color is from just raw chemistry.
> 
> 
>   Mark L. Fergerson

Mark, was looking for the reddish brown color on any of the Jovian satellites, as a better habitat for algae and which can thus spread algae to the other moons and Jupiter itself. A less harsh environment that has warm temperature and water. Europa has these extensive brown-red lines on top of a water-ice ocean. Ideal for algae with a temperature due to tidal flexing of liquid water.

So, the algae started life on Europa and through the billions of years, each year spreading some algae to Jupiter that became established on Jupiter and evolved to its present form.

AP

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#589382 — Europa has algae lines in the water and warmth Re: Speculation on Jupiter Red Spot as a red algae sea (yes, life on Jupiter)

Astronomy and physics by color, that is, finding the truth by using mostly color.

If we look at the natural pictures of Jupiter and its moons, we see the color of the Red Spot repeated on Europa. We see the color green as in green algae repeated on Jupiter, Europe, Ganymede.

This suggests to me that these colors are due to algae form of life. The point of contention is the cold temperatures, -100 C. But maybe life can thrive in these temperatures with slow growth.

AP

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#589386 — Jupiter moons with algae means first colonies

Now I think the Europeans have slated a probe to go to Ganymede sometime in the near future, which would make more sense than going to Mars, provided that the moons of Jupiter have algae life plus water, plenty of water as Ganymede has more water than does Earth.

So, the question would then be, is alien life of algae edible to humans. Can we live on it? And then of course we have to get used to algae pancakes for every day of the year.

But then, I suppose we can take some sort of fish that can live on algae and then fish that live on algae fish, so that Humanities first alien meals will be algae then algae with fish. Now, considering Earth at present, that is really not all that bad, for many in Asia live on simply rice and fish for most of the year.

Now, if algae grow on these moons, what other plants can grow? I cannot think of a single one.

But if fish can be started, then I think some species of birds can be started. So the diet would be high in protein.

As for the cold temperatures, I suspect we can find geothermals on these moons and build a habitat of floating boat-homes. Use the spacecraft that got us there and redesign them into a boat home.

Unlike Mars, which probably has no life, and where life as food available is half the battle of a sustained colony.

AP

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#589466 — color-driven conclusion that life is on Jupiter Re: Jupiter moons with algae means first colonies

Now, that is a tough choice. Is it algae or fungus? Fungus is a tough customer for it can grow on a surface that is not edible such as plastic shoes. Fungus has a white color, and do not know if it has other colors, like red or orange. Fungus can grow under toenails.

Now for those looking for a environment of first life, they seem to want warm temperatures, not cold ones. Few scientists look for first life on the poles. But, is there microbe life in the coldest spots on Earth that thrive? Is there life at the South Pole and on top of the highest mountains.

Has anyone researched how microbes can and could tolerate temperatures found on Jupiter and its moons.

So, the idea is that Jupiter and moons are the best places, other than Earth to find life, and the reason being is not so much water, because the Moon has water and Mars has water, but they are limited by the Solar radiation. So better than pools of water, is a Cloud formation and protection from solar radiation.

Everyone that ruminates about where life can exist always starts out with "does it have pools of water". When the critical factor is "can it avoid solar radiation".

Now, it is no proof that the large range of Colors found on Jupiter and its moons, means life. But it is strong evidence that life is likely to be there. The opposition argument has to come up with many, many natural occurring chemicals to account for all those Colors, and that is extremely difficult to do, especially as those colors form patterns-- bands on Jupiter and spots that grow and decline, and lines on Europa, and a spectrum of Colors so vast that life is likely to cause those colors.

AP

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#589551 — Re: color-driven conclusion that life is on Jupiter Re: Jupiter moons with algae means first colonies

On 7/15/2016 4:21 PM, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
> Now, that is a tough choice. Is it algae or fungus?

It could just be Benjamin Moore exterior semigloss paint.
Just as likely as algae or fungus.

-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#589602 — Re: Jupiter moons with algae means first colonies

On Friday, July 15, 2016 at 1:17:07 AM UTC-7, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
> Now I think the Europeans have slated a probe to go to Ganymede sometime in the near future, which would make more sense than going to Mars, provided that the moons of Jupiter have algae life plus water, plenty of water as Ganymede has more water than does Earth.
> 
> So, the question would then be, is alien life of algae edible to humans. Can we live on it? And then of course we have to get used to algae pancakes for every day of the year.
> 
> But then, I suppose we can take some sort of fish that can live on algae and then fish that live on algae fish, so that Humanities first alien meals will be algae then algae with fish. Now, considering Earth at present, that is really not all that bad, for many in Asia live on simply rice and fish for most of the year.
> 
> Now, if algae grow on these moons, what other plants can grow? I cannot think of a single one.
> 
> But if fish can be started, then I think some species of birds can be started. So the diet would be high in protein.
> 
> As for the cold temperatures, I suspect we can find geothermals on these moons and build a habitat of floating boat-homes. Use the spacecraft that got us there and redesign them into a boat home.
> 
> Unlike Mars, which probably has no life, and where life as food available is half the battle of a sustained colony.
> 
> AP

We eat lots of mushrooms .Microbes can live 11 days out is space.They need room to move and seperate,and ice is not their pleasure.I go with Jupiter's close in moons,and tidal gravity.NASA love water and life on Mars,so it can steal big bucks. Public goes with Mars because of movies and TV.

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