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Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves

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  Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 07:03 -0800
    Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 09:06 -0600
    Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 09:34 -0600
      Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 08:28 -0800
        Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 11:04 -0600
          Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 09:31 -0800
            Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 12:06 -0600
    Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-26 15:38 +0000
      Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 08:21 -0800
        Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-26 18:33 +0000
          Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 11:15 -0800
            Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-26 20:07 +0000
              Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 15:33 -0800
                Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-27 07:14 +0000
                  Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 05:27 -0800
                    Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-27 15:47 +0000
                    Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 08:04 -0800
                      Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 13:12 -0500
                  Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 08:08 -0800
                    Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-27 18:42 +0000
                  Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 13:12 -0500
                Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 07:29 -0600
                  Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 06:28 -0800
                    Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 10:31 -0600
                      Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 09:06 -0800
                        Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 11:40 -0600
                        Re: Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-27 19:00 +0000

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#548289 — Asymmetry of Galactic Rotation Curves

From wiki: "The rotation curves of spiral galaxies
are also known to be asymmetric. The
observational data from each side of the galaxy 
are generally averaged. Rotation curve asymmetry
appears to be normal rather than exceptional."

The asymmetry appears because the disk
is precessing as well as rotating.
It is a standing wave with rotation and
precession locked together in a 1:2 ratio.

Disks generally also have small opposite 'warps'
which also speaks to the precession.

Btw, Michael, you know this is tied in with
spinny stuff.

Okay Odd- how do you position your DM to
do the asymmetry thing? Are the stars really
speeding up and slowing down as they go from
one side to the other?

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#548290

On 1/26/16 9:03 AM, john wrote:
>  From wiki: "The rotation curves of spiral galaxies
> are also known to be asymmetric. The
> observational data from each side of the galaxy
> are generally averaged. Rotation curve asymmetry
> appears to be normal rather than exceptional."
>
> The asymmetry appears because the disk
> is precessing as well as rotating.



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-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

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#548297

On 1/26/2016 9:03 AM, john wrote:

>
> Okay Odd- how do you position your DM to
> do the asymmetry thing? Are the stars really
> speeding up and slowing down as they go from
> one side to the other?
>

No, the stars are not really speeding up and slowing down as they go 
from one side to the other.

Did you even acknowledge what I told you about the slingshot effect, 
where deep space probes that pass close by Jupiter and Saturn are given 
PERMANENT boosts in speed, and they don't lose as much speed as they 
gained from the approach. Why would you think that they do?

-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#548302

Odd, you slingshot around a massive body
like comets. Are you saying that stars around
galaxies may also be following steep ellipses 
like comets do,
and the sum of these is what results in
the arms and the rotation curves?

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#548310

On 1/26/2016 10:28 AM, john wrote:
> Odd, you slingshot around a massive body
> like comets.

Not just slingshot -- long-range, man-made probes, John.

> Are you saying that stars around
> galaxies may also be following steep ellipses
> like comets do,

Long-range, man-made probes don't follow ellipses, John.

> and the sum of these is what results in
> the arms and the rotation curves?
>


-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#548314

But comets do.
At the end where the sun is, they are
going very fast.
They get slingshotted back out fast, too.
Are you saying man-made slingshotted 
probes that escape the sun will continue 
indefinitely, as in, out of the galaxy?

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#548321

On 1/26/2016 11:31 AM, john wrote:
> But comets do.
> At the end where the sun is, they are
> going very fast.

But they don't gain that speed permanently, John.
It's not the same effect as deep-space probes where the speed increase 
is permanent.

Have you not gleaned ANY search terms from this discussion that would 
lead you to google how this effect works?

> They get slingshotted back out fast, too.
> Are you saying man-made slingshotted
> probes that escape the sun will continue
> indefinitely, as in, out of the galaxy?
>

Certainly permanently out of the solar system. I don't think anyone has 
any designs on whether they'll escape the galaxy -- only that they won't 
come back on a closed orbit back into our solar system like bound comets do.


-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#548298

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>The asymmetry appears because the disk
>is precessing as well as rotating.

And your evidence the disk is precessing is....?

>It is a standing wave with rotation and
>precession locked together in a 1:2 ratio.

How could there be a 1:2 ratio if the galactic disk is not even rotating
as a unit?  Hell, you just mentioned rotational assymetry and galactic
rotational curves which means you must know the disk doesn't rotate as a
unit, if you bring them up.  Unless you are just throwing out science-y
sounding phrases such as "galactic rotational curves" out as a form of
word salad without even understanding their meanings.  Oh, wait...

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#548300

Here's how your 'star speeds' vary:
it is a system that has TWO accelerations,
which are orthogonal. When the
accelerations add positively, the stars are
going faster, when negatively, slower.
It IS a system, Michael, as much as you try
to say it isn't. Stars also move within that
system- sometimes quickly- so what?

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#548332

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>Here's how your 'star speeds' vary:
>it is a system that has TWO accelerations,
>which are orthogonal. When the
>accelerations add positively, the stars are
>going faster, when negatively, slower.
>It IS a system, Michael, as much as you try
>to say it isn't. Stars also move within that
>system- sometimes quickly- so what?

You didn't answer the questions.  How can the galaxy precess in a 2:1
ratio if all the stars orbit the center at a different rate?

What evidence do you have of any sort of precession?

Even if they precess individually, you'd get an amorphous fuzzy ball
after a few revolutions of the 

Also, what enormous force is there that would cause any precession?

Plus a rotation at a right angle to a rotational axis produces a torque
perpendicular to both.  That would send the stars flying who knows where?
(Ever play with a gyroscope?  Also our local Museum of Science has a
demonstration showing that effect to kids.  Do you hold beliefs that fail
even kid-level physics?)

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#548343

Michael, are you saying a rotating body
can't be rotated a different way?
Ever have a trike as a kid?

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#548369

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>Michael, are you saying a rotating body
>can't be rotated a different way?
>Ever have a trike as a kid?

It can be.  But it requires a force (torque) to do so.  WHERE DOES IT COME 
FROM??????  Magic?

Even if a galaxy rotated as a solid unit (it doesn't), and precessed in a
2:1 ratio, WHERE DOES THE ENORMOUS TORQUE THAT MAKES IT PRECESS COME FROM?

Also, if a disk is rotating around an axis along the X direction, and it
is twisted so that it's precessing along the Y direction axis, there will
be a torque around the Z direction.  What stops everything from rotating
in the Z direction? (read up on gyroscopes. Ever have a top as a kid?  Do
you even know why the axis of a spinning, leaning top goes around in a
circle the way it does?)

You're the one obsessed with spinny things.  You must know all this.
Why don't you think things through?

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#548429

Michael
"It can be.  But it requires a force (torque) to do so.  WHERE DOES IT COME 
FROM??????  Magic? "

Comes from?
Is that Physics?
The same place atoms get all THEIR energy.
Some huge event.
Once the energy is invested
in this wave, it takes MORE for the wave
to break up, so it is permanent.

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#548502

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>Michael
>"It can be.  But it requires a force (torque) to do so.  WHERE DOES IT COME 
>FROM??????  Magic? "

>Comes from?
>Is that Physics?
>The same place atoms get all THEIR energy.
>Some huge event.
>Once the energy is invested
>in this wave, it takes MORE for the wave
>to break up, so it is permanent.

Dance, dance, dance.  All you can do is dance and toss word salad.  You
have no answer and no evidence.  I keep asking you for evidence galaxies
precess like you claim, and you either ignore it or dance.  WHERE IS THE
EVIDENCE?

You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask again: WHERE DOES THE TORQUE
NECESSARY TO CAUSE THE PRECESSION COME FROM?  A spinning object doesn't
precess without being forced to, and because of conservation of angular
momentum, it actually actively resists precession!

And to answer your question "Is that Physics?", yes! A claim has been
made.  Claims are evaluated against the laws of physics to see if the
claims are realistic.  The law of conservation of angular momentum
immediately rules out magically precessing galaxies as absurd.

C'mon, you are always whining about dark matter and zero volume particles
because, well, who knows why you whine about them, yet you come up with
stupid crap like precessing galaxies that require magic to happen? WTF??

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#548522

They are ALREADY precessing, Michael.
That little opposite warp seen on 85% of
spirals shows it.
The asymmetry shows it.

There's TWO things.

Where does ANY energy "come from"?

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#548544

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>They are ALREADY precessing, Michael.

Evidence?

And what keeps them precessing?  A rotating galaxy will have a certain
angular momentum vector (magnitude and direction) at any point in time.
For precession to take place, the angular momentum must be constantly
changed since the angular momentum is constantly changing.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_momentum

"In physics, angular momentum (rarely, moment of momentum or rotational 
momentum) is the rotational analog of linear momentum. It is an important 
quantity in physics because it is a conserved quantity -- the angular 
momentum of a system remains constant unless acted on by an external 
torque."

>Where does ANY energy "come from"?

I'm asking where the TORQUE comes from, not energy!  

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#548547

Where does ANY energy "come from"?
----------

The big bang. Obviously.

So many of your questions are fundamental to physics. Do you have ANY education or training in physics, john?

For instance there is a thread here regarding massless vs massive particles. If one doesn't know WHY massive particles cannot move at c, then he or she needs to go back to physics 101.

The same applies to anyone who asks where energy comes from.

These answers are absolutely fundamental to modern physics.

 

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#548577

On 01/27/2016 11:04 AM, HVAC wrote:
> Where does ANY energy "come from"?
> ----------
>
> The big bang. Obviously.
>
> So many of your questions are fundamental to physics. Do you have ANY education or training in physics, john?
>
> For instance there is a thread here regarding massless vs massive particles. If one doesn't know WHY massive particles cannot move at c, then he or she needs to go back to physics 101.
>
> The same applies to anyone who asks where energy comes from.
>
> These answers are absolutely fundamental to modern physics.


So tell us HVAC WHY massive particles can't move at c. We know they 
don't, but there is also the little item that unless you have some that 
travels FASTER than c you can use it to accelerate another particle 
faster than c. EM fields travel at c! So if you try to accelerate some 
particle in an accelerator which uses EM fields how can it make anything 
go faster the c. It can't. But that doesn't mean that there might not be 
something to give it that additional push. To know that there is NOT as 
usual requires "superpowers". You have those, HVAC, right? So tell us if 
such a thing exists.


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#548549

Micheal:
"You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask again: WHERE DOES THE TORQUE 
NECESSARY TO CAUSE THE PRECESSION COME FROM?  A spinning object doesn't 
precess without being forced to, and because of conservation of angular 
momentum, it actually actively resists precession! "

Well, let's look at the fractal model:
the next 'black holes' down are the protons
of our atoms.
Pretty hard to create an atom, right?

But- in pair production- electrons and their
counterparts can be triggered various ways.
Those electrons are comprised of the
next layer of matter- 'black holes'- down.

So- lightning, for example- creates matter
at the next fractal level down. So, in extreme energy events, energy is packed tightly by both
rotating it and precessing it- simply because 
there's so much energy.

You see how having a model with an actual 
pattern to it can answer some basic
questions, Michael?

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#548595

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>Micheal:
>"You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask again: WHERE DOES THE TORQUE 
>NECESSARY TO CAUSE THE PRECESSION COME FROM?  A spinning object doesn't 
>precess without being forced to, and because of conservation of angular 
>momentum, it actually actively resists precession! "

>Well, let's look at the fractal model:
>the next 'black holes' down are the protons

<snip puke>

>You see how having a model with an actual 
>pattern to it can answer some basic
>questions, Michael?

That's not a model, that's a stinking, steaming pile of vomit with chunks
of partially-digested word salad in it.

WHERE IS THE TORQUE COMING FROM?

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