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Groups > sci.physics > #509512 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-07-25 20:23 -0600 |
| Last post | 2015-08-03 09:34 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 93 — 17 participants |
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Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-07-25 20:23 -0600
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-07-26 15:40 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System wobbly <wobbly@dont-email.me> - 2015-07-28 22:14 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-07-26 23:20 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2015-07-26 23:46 -0500
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2015-07-26 23:44 -0500
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-07-27 22:52 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-07-28 16:41 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-01 12:32 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-02 15:51 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-02 20:29 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 01:12 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-03 00:07 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-03 12:17 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 09:36 -0700
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 19:00 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Bohuš Matuška <bohu@paranetnet.net> - 2015-08-03 18:01 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 20:31 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Bohuš Matuška <bohu@paranetnet.net> - 2015-08-03 19:28 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-03 18:01 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-03 14:52 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 23:00 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-06 10:36 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 07:58 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 08:35 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-07 10:13 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 00:26 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-07 22:25 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 07:14 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-08 05:44 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Emmerich Schultheiß <emme@noemail.thx> - 2015-08-08 13:23 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-08 10:16 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-08 10:34 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 10:47 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-09 17:09 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Emmerich Schultheiß <emme@noemail.thx> - 2015-08-09 17:24 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-09 17:56 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 20:05 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-09 18:44 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Emmerich Schultheiß <emme@noemail.thx> - 2015-08-09 19:08 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 10:49 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 19:53 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-09 18:47 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-09 17:52 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 00:07 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-09 22:33 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> - 2015-08-09 22:55 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> - 2015-08-09 22:58 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 10:54 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-10 17:38 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> - 2015-08-10 18:07 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 01:11 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-10 23:28 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-09 20:43 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 10:55 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 11:01 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-10 09:32 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-10 17:42 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-11 11:38 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 23:00 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-11 22:27 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-11 22:12 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-08-12 23:32 -0500
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 07:32 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 07:30 -0500
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Mahipal <mahipal7638@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 05:50 -0700
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> - 2015-08-13 13:11 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 08:23 -0500
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> - 2015-08-13 13:28 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 15:20 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> - 2015-08-13 13:22 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 07:24 -0500
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 15:10 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> - 2015-08-13 13:15 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 15:21 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-13 16:26 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 16:35 -0500
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-13 21:52 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-14 07:42 -0500
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-14 14:04 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System dsr@mail.lns.cornell.edu (Daniel S. Riley) - 2015-08-13 12:27 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-11 22:20 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 11:39 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 12:42 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-11 14:40 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 22:35 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-12 21:56 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-03 17:57 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-07-30 11:03 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-08-04 03:10 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-04 17:24 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System wobbly <wobbly@dont-email.me> - 2015-07-28 22:01 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 09:34 -0700
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-11 22:27 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <re9q9c-hr2.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #512843 |
In sci.physics Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> wrote: > Dne 11/08/2015 v 17:38 Jackpol11@hotmail.com napsal(a): > >> That reminds me of the time (1972?) I was hired by a company to >> digitize their analog aircraft something simulator. There was a very >> large schematic with op-amp integrators (they may have used homemade >> op-amps). There were about a half-dozen resolvers and the guy >> explained to me they didn't know what to do with them. >> So I figured out the proper matrix equations for each resolver that >> could then be used in the digital version. >> But, notice, the thing was working before I wrote any equations. Just >> put a resolver wherever there's an axle that turns and the job is >> done. >> The originating resolver forms a magnetic vector V, from the inputs X >> and Y (like you would do with a straight edge on paper) and that same >> magnetic V is properly dissected by the secondary coils into the 2 >> true geometric components in the next coordinates set offset by that >> angle. >> (redundancy noted) >> John Polasek >> > I was 7 years old than.. > > http://www.ibiblio.org/kuphaldt/electricCircuits/AC/02253.png > > What I previously wanted to point out was, > that resolver is an elementary segment > of eventually more complex analog computer. Maybe or maybe doing something else such as generating a radar PPI display. > It produces at stator coils > voltage proportional to sinus, resp. cosinus of the angle, > that can be processed by other analog modules. If you have sinus issues, try an antihistamine; no idea what to do for a cosinus issue. > I think there could be previously misunderstanding > that I was going to work with cosines in digital computer. > > I remember early 80s when I was on technical high school > and 2 of our enthusiastic professors > presented to our class a working analog computer: > 2 big boxes, full of connectors and cables, > with few osciloscope or TV screens. > > Wit op amps, some basic operations can be easily achieved. I remember the mid 60's when I was introduced to the Nike-Hercules fire control computer that solved the differential intercept equations in real time. It had 78 tube based op amps and used motor driven zero set switches, AKA chopper stabilizers, to eliminate drift. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Jackpol11@hotmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-11 22:12 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <fi9lsa595l8cs1gqfqf163ilppsjttg08b@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #512863 |
On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 22:27:07 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >In sci.physics Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> wrote: >> Dne 11/08/2015 v 17:38 Jackpol11@hotmail.com napsal(a): >> >>> That reminds me of the time (1972?) I was hired by a company to >>> digitize their analog aircraft something simulator. There was a very >>> large schematic with op-amp integrators (they may have used homemade >>> op-amps). There were about a half-dozen resolvers and the guy >>> explained to me they didn't know what to do with them. >>> So I figured out the proper matrix equations for each resolver that >>> could then be used in the digital version. >>> But, notice, the thing was working before I wrote any equations. Just >>> put a resolver wherever there's an axle that turns and the job is >>> done. >>> The originating resolver forms a magnetic vector V, from the inputs X >>> and Y (like you would do with a straight edge on paper) and that same >>> magnetic V is properly dissected by the secondary coils into the 2 >>> true geometric components in the next coordinates set offset by that >>> angle. >>> (redundancy noted) >>> John Polasek >>> >> I was 7 years old than.. >> >> http://www.ibiblio.org/kuphaldt/electricCircuits/AC/02253.png >> >> What I previously wanted to point out was, >> that resolver is an elementary segment >> of eventually more complex analog computer. > >Maybe or maybe doing something else such as generating a radar PPI >display. > >> It produces at stator coils >> voltage proportional to sinus, resp. cosinus of the angle, >> that can be processed by other analog modules. > >If you have sinus issues, try an antihistamine; no idea what to do >for a cosinus issue. > >> I think there could be previously misunderstanding >> that I was going to work with cosines in digital computer. >> >> I remember early 80s when I was on technical high school >> and 2 of our enthusiastic professors >> presented to our class a working analog computer: >> 2 big boxes, full of connectors and cables, >> with few osciloscope or TV screens. >> >> Wit op amps, some basic operations can be easily achieved. > >I remember the mid 60's when I was introduced to the Nike-Hercules >fire control computer that solved the differential intercept equations >in real time. > >It had 78 tube based op amps and used motor driven zero set switches, >AKA chopper stabilizers, to eliminate drift. These inertial guidance systems I worked on, all of the signals were 400 cycle AC which had to be rectified before integrating, then possibly re-modulated for further use. The synchros and resolvers required 400 cps. With this frequency less iron was required in the transformers, but higher frequencies would be bothered by the capacitance of the coils, approaching self resonance. These inertial guidancesystems went into ICBMs that stood vertically with the inertial platform on top. To align the platform into the plane of the target, a theodolite beam was sent up to a Porro prism and adjustments were made. This prism is sensitive only on one axis. I was given the task ofcalculating the azimuth errors resulting from tilts on the pitch and roll axes (which were supposedly neutralized out). As a result I finally wrote a complicated paper in the Journal of the Optical Society JOSA October 1967 "Matrix analysis of gimbaled mirror and prism systems)". (For $45 you can get a copy.) That is certainly one of the drawbacks of the "peer-reviewed" system. Essentially nobody gets to see it. John Polasek
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| From | Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-12 23:32 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mJWdnTxGBs1MgFHInZ2dnUU7_8ydnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #512902 |
[I just happened to see this.] On 8/11/15 8/11/15 9:12 PM, Jackpol11@hotmail.com wrote: > As a result I finally wrote a complicated paper in the Journal of the > Optical Society JOSA October 1967 "Matrix analysis of gimbaled mirror > and prism systems)". (For $45 you can get a copy.) > That is certainly one of the drawbacks of the "peer-reviewed" system. > Essentially nobody gets to see it. That is OUTRAGEOUSLY wrong. Anybody who is interested can see it at an appropriate library or by paying the fee. For instance, I could obtain a copy by simply requesting one from the librarian (email request, PDF returned, usually same day), or by walking down to the library and finding it on the shelf (yes they scan old articles like this). What you mean is that essentially no AMATEURS get to see it. Professionals will always find it, because we know that reading a technical article is VASTLY better than trying to re-construct the concepts, calculations, and measurements on our own. Hmmm. That's not quite right, either. What you really mean is that essentially no STUPID amateurs get to see it. (Neither do uninterested people, but that doesn't matter.) Tom Roberts
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| From | Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-13 07:32 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <mqha1t$8d7$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #513183 |
Dne 13/08/2015 v 06:32 Tom Roberts napsal(a): > [I just happened to see this.] > > On 8/11/15 8/11/15 9:12 PM, Jackpol11@hotmail.com wrote: >> As a result I finally wrote a complicated paper in the Journal of the >> Optical Society JOSA October 1967 "Matrix analysis of gimbaled mirror >> and prism systems)". (For $45 you can get a copy.) >> That is certainly one of the drawbacks of the "peer-reviewed" system. >> Essentially nobody gets to see it. > > That is OUTRAGEOUSLY wrong. Anybody who is interested can see it at an > appropriate library or by paying the fee. For instance, I could obtain a copy by > simply requesting one from the librarian (email request, PDF returned, usually > same day), or by walking down to the library and finding it on the shelf (yes > they scan old articles like this). > > What you mean is that essentially no AMATEURS get to see it. Professionals will > always find it, because we know that reading a technical article is VASTLY > better than trying to re-construct the concepts, calculations, and measurements > on our own. > > Hmmm. That's not quite right, either. What you really mean is that essentially > no STUPID amateurs get to see it. (Neither do uninterested people, but that > doesn't matter.) > > Paying the fee is not optimal option for physics hobbyists, if price per article is higher than for most books. Asking for free, availability may vary for world regions. Libraries may not be subscribers, or librarians may not be willing to provide such a service. Also, hobbyists a/o older people may not be familiar with library systems. Stupid is rather strong word here. -- Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )
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| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-13 07:30 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mqi2lg$7m6$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #513190 |
On 8/13/2015 12:32 AM, Poutnik wrote: > Paying the fee is not optimal option for physics hobbyists, > if price per article is higher than for most books. > > Asking for free, availability may vary for world regions. > > Libraries may not be subscribers, > or librarians may not be willing to provide such a service. > > Also, hobbyists a/o older people > may not be familiar with library systems. > > Stupid is rather strong word here. > I wouldn't use "stupid". I would use a combination of "lazy" and "disinterested". Several of our chronic posters live very near a university with a well-equipped library, but they gag when it's suggested that they go look something up. Excuses abound. But what's interesting is that the excuses are not of the form, "It's too far away" or "I don't have transportation" or "I don't know how to look it up once I get there." The excuses are "Books are full of lies," or "Anything that is worth anything should be explainable in a couple of paragraphs and not require wading through hundreds of pages," or "Books are passe, the internet is in," or "I'm too old to spend time reading," or "There are no such books, and I'd waste my time going to the library to look for nonexistent books." -- Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
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| From | Mahipal <mahipal7638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-13 05:50 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <8c91a1aa-dd74-4e8e-aaa9-6453a577de58@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #513229 |
On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 8:30:45 AM UTC-4, Odd Bodkin wrote: > On 8/13/2015 12:32 AM, Poutnik wrote: > > Paying the fee is not optimal option for physics hobbyists, > > if price per article is higher than for most books. > > > > Asking for free, availability may vary for world regions. > > > > Libraries may not be subscribers, > > or librarians may not be willing to provide such a service. > > > > Also, hobbyists a/o older people > > may not be familiar with library systems. > > > > Stupid is rather strong word here. > > > > I wouldn't use "stupid". I would use a combination of "lazy" and > "disinterested". Several of our chronic posters live very near a > university with a well-equipped library, but they gag when it's > suggested that they go look something up. Excuses abound. But what's > interesting is that the excuses are not of the form, "It's too far away" > or "I don't have transportation" or "I don't know how to look it up once > I get there." The excuses are "Books are full of lies," or "Anything > that is worth anything should be explainable in a couple of paragraphs > and not require wading through hundreds of pages," or "Books are passe, > the internet is in," or "I'm too old to spend time reading," or "There > are no such books, and I'd waste my time going to the library to look > for nonexistent books." > > -- > Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables To summarize, Potluck and Odd, really stupidly don't care for old peeps. Paying for internet access -- Usenet or otherwise -- is not cheaping out. I've been to many a library, the worthwhile books are either checked out or are out of print. Wonder why? Every fucking book should be sold in electronic form! O wait... they are?! How come nobody ever tells me anything before my mouth opens?! Shakespeare is so old, audience chants: you know how old he is?, that every word of his is freely available on Project Gutenberg. Sure, some other great authors are there too. Blah blah BLAH... Next, if something so important is worth the hauling our wheelchairs to the library for, then why pray tell, is it not on any website? -- Mahipal 'If it is true and so very important, it must be hidden...'
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| From | Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-13 13:11 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mqi52f$d8e$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #513229 |
Odd Bodkin wrote: > On 8/13/2015 12:32 AM, Poutnik wrote: >> Paying the fee is not optimal option for physics hobbyists, >> if price per article is higher than for most books. >> >> Asking for free, availability may vary for world regions. >> >> Libraries may not be subscribers, >> or librarians may not be willing to provide such a service. >> >> Also, hobbyists a/o older people >> may not be familiar with library systems. >> >> Stupid is rather strong word here. >> > > I wouldn't use "stupid". I would use a combination of "lazy" and > "disinterested". Several of our chronic posters live very near a No please, "stupid" is ok.
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| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-13 08:23 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mqi5o9$en5$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #513238 |
On 8/13/2015 8:11 AM, Felipe Delgado wrote: > Odd Bodkin wrote: > >> On 8/13/2015 12:32 AM, Poutnik wrote: >>> Paying the fee is not optimal option for physics hobbyists, >>> if price per article is higher than for most books. >>> >>> Asking for free, availability may vary for world regions. >>> >>> Libraries may not be subscribers, >>> or librarians may not be willing to provide such a service. >>> >>> Also, hobbyists a/o older people >>> may not be familiar with library systems. >>> >>> Stupid is rather strong word here. >>> >> >> I wouldn't use "stupid". I would use a combination of "lazy" and >> "disinterested". Several of our chronic posters live very near a > > No please, "stupid" is ok. > In your case, it's absolutely ok. -- Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
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| From | Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-13 13:28 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mqi61c$fem$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #513246 |
Odd Bodkin wrote: > On 8/13/2015 8:11 AM, Felipe Delgado wrote: >> Odd Bodkin wrote: >> >>> On 8/13/2015 12:32 AM, Poutnik wrote: >>>> Paying the fee is not optimal option for physics hobbyists, >>>> if price per article is higher than for most books. >>>> >>>> Asking for free, availability may vary for world regions. >>>> >>>> Libraries may not be subscribers, >>>> or librarians may not be willing to provide such a service. >>>> >>>> Also, hobbyists a/o older people may not be familiar with library >>>> systems. >>>> >>>> Stupid is rather strong word here. >>>> >>> I wouldn't use "stupid". I would use a combination of "lazy" and >>> "disinterested". Several of our chronic posters live very near a >> >> No please, "stupid" is ok. >> > In your case, it's absolutely ok. Since you are using the qualificative "absolutely" that would require some proves. Something you are not able to come up with, and never will. However, since you insist, I can come up with a few proving brain dead stupid beyond a shadow of a doubt. I mean, it will be crystal clear for everybody.
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| From | Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-13 15:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <mqi5f6$3iq$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #513229 |
On 08/13/2015 02:30 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote: > On 8/13/2015 12:32 AM, Poutnik wrote: >> Paying the fee is not optimal option for physics hobbyists, >> if price per article is higher than for most books. >> >> Asking for free, availability may vary for world regions. >> >> Libraries may not be subscribers, >> or librarians may not be willing to provide such a service. >> >> Also, hobbyists a/o older people >> may not be familiar with library systems. >> >> Stupid is rather strong word here. >> > > I wouldn't use "stupid". I would use a combination of "lazy" and > "disinterested". I agree it is valid for many, but not all. Things may not always be as easy, especially for those who do not raise such funny excuses as mentioned. -- Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )
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| From | Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-13 13:22 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mqi5mb$emk$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #513241 |
Poutnik wrote: >>> Stupid is rather strong word here. >>> >> I wouldn't use "stupid". I would use a combination of "lazy" and >> "disinterested". > > I agree it is valid for many, but not all. Ohh, not you. > Things may not always be as easy, especially for those who do not raise > such funny excuses as mentioned. Wow, not you, at all!!
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| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-13 07:24 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mqi2a9$6os$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #513183 |
On 8/12/2015 11:32 PM, Tom Roberts wrote: > [I just happened to see this.] > > On 8/11/15 8/11/15 9:12 PM, Jackpol11@hotmail.com wrote: >> As a result I finally wrote a complicated paper in the Journal of the >> Optical Society JOSA October 1967 "Matrix analysis of gimbaled mirror >> and prism systems)". (For $45 you can get a copy.) >> That is certainly one of the drawbacks of the "peer-reviewed" system. >> Essentially nobody gets to see it. > > That is OUTRAGEOUSLY wrong. Anybody who is interested can see it at an > appropriate library or by paying the fee. For instance, I could obtain a > copy by simply requesting one from the librarian (email request, PDF > returned, usually same day), or by walking down to the library and > finding it on the shelf (yes they scan old articles like this). > > What you mean is that essentially no AMATEURS get to see it. > Professionals will always find it, because we know that reading a > technical article is VASTLY better than trying to re-construct the > concepts, calculations, and measurements on our own. > > Hmmm. That's not quite right, either. What you really mean is that > essentially no STUPID amateurs get to see it. (Neither do uninterested > people, but that doesn't matter.) > > > Tom Roberts I personally have never had a problem finding resources. I don't live in a university town, but I live near one, and because I'm interested, I'm willing to make a short drive over for the afternoon and look something up, make a photocopy, and then take it home for a deeper look. I think there are a lot of people on this newsgroup, however, who have limited interest at best, and it's not enough to overcome overwhelming laziness. If they can't google it and access it for free -- and moreover if it doesn't appear in the first five links that come up as search results -- then it isn't worth any more effort, as far as they are concerned. -- Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
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| From | Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-13 15:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <mqi4t8$1dj$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #513228 |
On 08/13/2015 02:24 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote: > > I personally have never had a problem finding resources. I don't live in > a university town, but I live near one, and because I'm interested, I'm > willing to make a short drive over for the afternoon and look something > up, make a photocopy, and then take it home for a deeper look. > Not to be forgotten to balance interest and resources to get resources. If one gets an article, it does not necessarily mean he has bigger interest than one who does not. It may be just much easier for him, for whatever reasons. -- Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )
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| From | Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-13 13:15 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mqi59c$dni$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #513237 |
Poutnik wrote: > On 08/13/2015 02:24 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote: >> >> I personally have never had a problem finding resources. I don't live in >> a university town, but I live near one, and because I'm interested, I'm >> willing to make a short drive over for the afternoon and look something >> up, make a photocopy, and then take it home for a deeper look. >> > Not to be forgotten to balance interest and resources to get resources. > If one gets an article, it does not necessarily mean he has bigger > interest than one who does not.It may be just much easier for him, > for whatever reasons. Why on Earth should one like you have interest in a scientific article of any kind? Which also might be even wrong, btw, and you never knowing it. What's the point? There is no sensible point, in you reading acientific articles. Face it.
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| From | Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-13 15:21 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <mqi5i8$3iq$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #513240 |
On 08/13/2015 03:15 PM, Felipe Delgado wrote: > Poutnik wrote: > >> On 08/13/2015 02:24 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote: >>> >>> I personally have never had a problem finding resources. I don't live in >>> a university town, but I live near one, and because I'm interested, I'm >>> willing to make a short drive over for the afternoon and look something >>> up, make a photocopy, and then take it home for a deeper look. >>> >> Not to be forgotten to balance interest and resources to get resources. >> If one gets an article, it does not necessarily mean he has bigger >> interest than one who does not.It may be just much easier for him, >> for whatever reasons. > > Why on Earth should one like you have interest in a scientific article of > any kind? Which also might be even wrong, btw, and you never knowing it. > What's the point? There is no sensible point, in you reading acientific > articles. Face it. > Yes, stupid for you is ok, as you have suggested in the other post. -- Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )
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| From | Jackpol11@hotmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-13 16:26 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <i9vpsalcqmg0r7pvhdut20rdjv7oet24tm@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #513183 |
On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 23:32:16 -0500, Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >[I just happened to see this.] > >On 8/11/15 8/11/15 9:12 PM, Jackpol11@hotmail.com wrote: >> As a result I finally wrote a complicated paper in the Journal of the >> Optical Society JOSA October 1967 "Matrix analysis of gimbaled mirror >> and prism systems)". (For $45 you can get a copy.) >> That is certainly one of the drawbacks of the "peer-reviewed" system. >> Essentially nobody gets to see it. > >That is OUTRAGEOUSLY wrong. Anybody who is interested can see it at an >appropriate library or by paying the fee. For instance, I could obtain a copy by >simply requesting one from the librarian (email request, PDF returned, usually >same day), or by walking down to the library and finding it on the shelf (yes >they scan old articles like this). > >What you mean is that essentially no AMATEURS get to see it. Professionals will >always find it, because we know that reading a technical article is VASTLY >better than trying to re-construct the concepts, calculations, and measurements >on our own. > >Hmmm. That's not quite right, either. What you really mean is that essentially >no STUPID amateurs get to see it. (Neither do uninterested people, but that >doesn't matter.) > > >Tom Roberts Your rancor is showing. $35 is an outrage also, $15 if you're a member of OSA. The price is a barrier when the reader has no idea whether the article will be useful to him or not. Of course, today, we're really spoiled by the ability with a few keystrokes to access the information, and very few will feel inspired to search out a library*. Really, the best idea is to publish an article on arxiv. which obviously wasn't in existence in 1967. The archive has become less useful since now it requires an "endorser",who, by definition knows more about the topic than you do. So much for new ideas. >Anybody who is interested can see it at an >appropriate library or by paying the fee. For instance, I could obtain a copy by >simply requesting one from the librarian (email request, PDF returned, usually >same day), or by walking down to the library and finding it on the shelf (yes >they scan old articles like this). *The nearest university is University of Central Florida (60,000 students) and, as an example, on one visit I found the only relativity book they had was by Ohanian. I doubt if they have JOSA. Anyway, to restate the original argument, I think it's plain that articles get locked up in journals, guarded by a handsome pay gate. Academicians have a free subscription. Investigators who are not members of the "guild" need not apply. John Polasek
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| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-13 16:35 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mqj2ja$s3u$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #513348 |
On 8/13/2015 3:26 PM, Jackpol11@hotmail.com wrote: > *The nearest university is University of Central Florida (60,000 > students) and, as an example, on one visit I found the only relativity > book they had was by Ohanian. I doubt if they have JOSA. Oh, I think not. I just did a search on Misner, for example, here: http://library.ucf.edu/find/books/ and found both Geometrodynamics (1962, with Wheeler) and Gravitation (1973, with Wheeler and Thorne), both on the main library general collection - 4th floor. Searching on Title contains "relativity" returns 638 matching items, with 267 of them available online, and 1950 items listed that can be requested through interlibrary loan. Check it out. -- Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
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| From | Jackpol11@hotmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-13 21:52 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mcgqsahogg6i09uuij4i9rs2e1fo6oeke0@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #513378 |
On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 16:35:41 -0500, Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> wrote: >On 8/13/2015 3:26 PM, Jackpol11@hotmail.com wrote: >> *The nearest university is University of Central Florida (60,000 >> students) and, as an example, on one visit I found the only relativity >> book they had was by Ohanian. I doubt if they have JOSA. > >Oh, I think not. I just did a search on Misner, for example, here: >http://library.ucf.edu/find/books/ >and found both Geometrodynamics (1962, with Wheeler) >and Gravitation (1973, with Wheeler and Thorne), >both on the main library general collection - 4th floor. > >Searching on Title contains "relativity" returns 638 matching items, >with 267 of them available online, and 1950 items listed that can be >requested through interlibrary loan. > >Check it out. I appreciate it. I was not sure how to do this. I tried out going to the UCF site and search for \articles. I was able to get a glimpse of the top margin of the paper, but to read it I had to have an NID password and some kind of PeopleSoft affiliation. (it's easy to get steered away from UCF by competing search engines) It sounds like I have to be a student there. This certainly is not as easy as seeing it in an arxiv. I see now that the title I used was not very amenable to search under mirrors and prisms. "Mirrors and prisms as tensors" would've been a better title for search purposes. John Polasek
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| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-14 07:42 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mqknni$8pg$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #513435 |
On 8/13/2015 8:52 PM, Jackpol11@hotmail.com wrote: > On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 16:35:41 -0500, Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> On 8/13/2015 3:26 PM, Jackpol11@hotmail.com wrote: >>> *The nearest university is University of Central Florida (60,000 >>> students) and, as an example, on one visit I found the only relativity >>> book they had was by Ohanian. I doubt if they have JOSA. >> >> Oh, I think not. I just did a search on Misner, for example, here: >> http://library.ucf.edu/find/books/ >> and found both Geometrodynamics (1962, with Wheeler) >> and Gravitation (1973, with Wheeler and Thorne), >> both on the main library general collection - 4th floor. >> >> Searching on Title contains "relativity" returns 638 matching items, >> with 267 of them available online, and 1950 items listed that can be >> requested through interlibrary loan. >> >> Check it out. > I appreciate it. I was not sure how to do this. I tried out going to > the UCF site and search for \articles. I was able to get a glimpse of > the top margin of the paper, but to read it I had to have an NID > password and some kind of PeopleSoft affiliation. (it's easy to get > steered away from UCF by competing search engines) > It sounds like I have to be a student there. This certainly is not as > easy as seeing it in an arxiv. > I see now that the title I used was not very amenable to search under > mirrors and prisms. "Mirrors and prisms as tensors" would've been > better title for search purposes. > John Polasek > I'm pretty sure that you do not need a student ID to walk into the physical building at UCF. That's the case at the university nearest to me. Once inside you have full access to the stacks. Whether you have access to the ebook files depends on library to library. At my nearest university, they have a number of desktops that are permanently logged in for in-house reading. But at some schools, you have to log in with a student account to access digital archives. Interestingly, at one place I visited (staying with a friend in another state), I was able to walk up to the counter, explain that I was visiting, and they gave me a generic student login that I could use for the day. -- Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
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| From | Jackpol11@hotmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-14 14:04 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <h83ssal2n4matlemgj76d1n63gkmivksqi@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #513511 |
On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 07:42:28 -0500, Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> wrote: >On 8/13/2015 8:52 PM, Jackpol11@hotmail.com wrote: >> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 16:35:41 -0500, Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On 8/13/2015 3:26 PM, Jackpol11@hotmail.com wrote: >>>> *The nearest university is University of Central Florida (60,000 >>>> students) and, as an example, on one visit I found the only relativity >>>> book they had was by Ohanian. I doubt if they have JOSA. >>> >>> Oh, I think not. I just did a search on Misner, for example, here: >>> http://library.ucf.edu/find/books/ >>> and found both Geometrodynamics (1962, with Wheeler) >>> and Gravitation (1973, with Wheeler and Thorne), >>> both on the main library general collection - 4th floor. >>> >>> Searching on Title contains "relativity" returns 638 matching items, >>> with 267 of them available online, and 1950 items listed that can be >>> requested through interlibrary loan. >>> >>> Check it out. >> I appreciate it. I was not sure how to do this. I tried out going to >> the UCF site and search for \articles. I was able to get a glimpse of >> the top margin of the paper, but to read it I had to have an NID >> password and some kind of PeopleSoft affiliation. (it's easy to get >> steered away from UCF by competing search engines) >> It sounds like I have to be a student there. This certainly is not as >> easy as seeing it in an arxiv. >> I see now that the title I used was not very amenable to search under >> mirrors and prisms. "Mirrors and prisms as tensors" would've been >> better title for search purposes. >> John Polasek >> > >I'm pretty sure that you do not need a student ID to walk into the >physical building at UCF. That's the case at the university nearest to >me. Once inside you have full access to the stacks. Whether you have >access to the ebook files depends on library to library. At my nearest >university, they have a number of desktops that are permanently logged >in for in-house reading. But at some schools, you have to log in with a >student account to access digital archives. Interestingly, at one place >I visited (staying with a friend in another state), I was able to walk >up to the counter, explain that I was visiting, and they gave me a >generic student login that I could use for the day. Thank you very much for taking the time. Fortunately, for my purposes I can find about everything I need on the web. Dark energy for example is available on archive and journals online, don't think any of those articles have a pay gate. John Polasek
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