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Groups > sci.physics > #510247 > unrolled thread

Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize"

Started byjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
First post2015-07-29 12:55 -0700
Last post2015-08-02 16:44 -0500
Articles 20 on this page of 153 — 11 participants

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  Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 12:55 -0700
    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-07-30 15:01 +0000
      Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-07-30 14:23 -0500
        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Enomis Skating <anomis.edenomis@libero.it> - 2015-08-02 23:38 -0700
          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 06:53 -0700
            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 16:06 +0200
            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 09:13 -0500
              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 14:18 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 16:58 -0500
                  Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 16:10 -0700
                    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-04 07:39 -0500
                      Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 08:33 -0700
                        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 10:41 -0500
                          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 10:38 -0700
                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 13:36 -0500
                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 13:11 -0700
                                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 13:24 -0700
                                  Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 15:35 -0500
                                    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 15:50 -0700
                                      Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 20:05 -0500
                                        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 20:04 -0700
                                          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 20:22 -0700
                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 06:52 -0400
                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 09:32 -0500
                                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 12:37 -0400
                                                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 12:21 -0500
                                                  Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 13:35 -0400
                                                  Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 13:29 -0700
                                                    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 17:13 -0500
                                                curvature of Universe manifest; time is not a dimesnion per se noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 11:06 -0700
                                        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Enomis Skating <anomis.edenomis@libero.it> - 2015-08-05 22:59 -0700
                                          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 06:32 -0700
                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 09:36 -0500
                                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 07:51 -0700
                                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 07:51 -0700
                                                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 10:22 -0500
                                                  Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 08:34 -0700
                                                    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 12:17 -0500
                                                      Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 14:35 -0700
                                                        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 14:51 -0700
                                                          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 17:22 -0500
                                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 16:47 -0700
                                                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 07:38 -0500
                                                                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 06:27 -0700
                                                                  Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 08:49 -0500
                                                                    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 10:11 -0700
                                                                      Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 12:47 -0500
                                                                        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 14:40 -0500
                                                                          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 18:56 -0700
                                                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 04:59 -0700
                                                                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 11:23 -0700
                                                                                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 15:33 -0500
                                                                                  Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 14:23 -0700
                                                                                    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 12:36 -0700
                                                                                      "de- noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 15:45 -0700
                                                                                      Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 09:00 -0500
                                                                                        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 10:17 -0400
                                                                                          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 09:54 -0500
                                                                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 13:55 -0400
                                                                                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 11:38 -0700
                                                                                                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 13:49 -0500
                                                                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 18:27 -0400
                                                                                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 06:41 -0400
                                                                                                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 05:50 -0700
                                                                                                  Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 09:16 -0400
                                                                                                    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 06:41 -0700
                                                                                                      Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 13:38 -0400
                                                                                                        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 10:52 -0700
                                                                                                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" BDK <Control@Worldcontrol.com> - 2015-08-11 14:49 -0400
                                                                                                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" "K Wills (Shill #3)" <compuelf@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 14:51 -0500
                                                                                                  Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 05:30 -0400
                                                                                          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 07:56 -0700
                                                                                          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" "K Wills (Shill #3)" <compuelf@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 16:28 -0500
                                                                                          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 18:21 -0400
                                                                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 08:15 -0400
                                                                                    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 08:55 -0500
                                                                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 15:30 -0500
                                                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 15:28 -0500
                                                                        from there noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 13:21 -0700
                                                                to noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 10:16 -0700
                                                        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 17:20 -0500
                                              mister Franz (sp.? noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 11:10 -0700
                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 07:42 -0700
                                          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 09:34 -0500
                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Enomis Skating <anomis.edenomis@libero.it> - 2015-08-06 07:56 -0700
                                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 08:16 -0700
                                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 10:39 -0500
                    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-04 09:30 -0400
                      Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-04 12:15 -0700
                        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 06:26 -0400
                          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 05:49 -0700
                    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-08-10 19:20 +0000
                      Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 12:50 -0700
                        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 15:53 -0500
                          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 14:46 -0700
                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 17:27 -0500
                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 15:55 -0700
                                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-08-10 23:15 +0000
                                  Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 18:40 -0700
                                    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 22:07 -0700
                                    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 07:53 -0500
                                      Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 06:12 -0700
                                        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 09:00 -0500
                                          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 07:22 -0700
                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 09:33 -0500
                                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 07:44 -0700
                                                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 10:22 -0500
                                                  Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 09:53 -0700
                                                    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 13:05 -0500
                                                      Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 11:19 -0700
                                                        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 13:25 -0500
                                                          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 11:42 -0700
                                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 13:54 -0500
                                                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 12:29 -0700
                                                                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 15:05 -0500
                                                                  Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 13:24 -0700
                                                                    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 15:32 -0500
                                                                      Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 13:55 -0700
                                                                        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 17:15 -0500
                                                                          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 15:40 -0700
                                                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 08:55 -0500
                                                                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 08:31 -0700
                                                                                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 10:41 -0500
                                                                                  Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 09:10 -0700
                                                                                    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 11:27 -0500
                                                                                      Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 11:04 -0700
                                                                                        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-08-12 18:26 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 13:28 -0500
                                                                                          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 12:49 -0700
                                                                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 15:35 -0500
                                                                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Mahipal <mahipal7638@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 14:58 -0700
                                                                                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 16:18 -0700
                                                                                                :=4 noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 16:58 -0700
                                                                              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 15:57 -0700
                                                            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 05:32 -0400
                                    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-08-11 15:13 +0000
                                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 07:47 -0500
                        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-08-11 15:04 +0000
                      ratio, aspect noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 12:23 -0700
      Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-07-31 20:35 -0500
        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-07-31 19:00 -0700
          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-01 05:25 -0700
            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-08-01 21:02 +0000
              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 06:50 -0400
            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-01 14:05 -0700
              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Enomis Skating <anomis.edenomis@libero.it> - 2015-08-02 02:28 -0700
                zene o'Ben noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 14:14 -0700
              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 17:01 -0500
              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-08-01 22:48 +0000
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Enomis Skating <anomis.edenomis@libero.it> - 2015-08-02 02:21 -0700
            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 16:57 -0500
            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 16:59 -0500
          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 16:44 -0500

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#512659

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 07:53 -0500
Message-ID<mqcr8c$1c4$6@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#512602
On 8/10/2015 8:40 PM, john wrote:
> Michael
> Everything is standing waves.
> But everything is particles, too.

Actually, no, they're neither particles nor waves. They are quantum 
fields, which behave a little like particles and a little like waves and 
a little like something other than either one.

>
> How does that work?

Quantum mechanics, John. Try a book. It's an interesting subject.



-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#512664

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 06:12 -0700
Message-ID<1b983947-b7cb-4a61-b241-9ce9947a22ec@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#512659
No such thing as "fields", Michael,
except as a mathematical summation.
In the real world there are REAL things.
There ARE standing waves, but a wave
is similar to a field in that it is produced
by a large number of small things all
doing a coordinated action.

Math is not reality, Michael.
Trees fall in forests with no one to
see or hear them. Cats die in boxes
whether you look or not. Math is a
helpful tool, but not when you start
thinking it's more than a description of
what is or can be happening.
That's part of your problem, Mochael

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#512682

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 09:00 -0500
Message-ID<mqcv4v$dmj$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#512664
On 8/11/2015 8:12 AM, john wrote:
> No such thing as "fields", Michael,
> except as a mathematical summation.

Don't think that's right, John. Physicists have been saying for some 
time that the basis for reality of just about everything is fields. 
Physicists regard fields as real things, not mathematical descriptions, 
John. Maybe you should consider reading up on it.

> In the real world there are REAL things.
> There ARE standing waves, but a wave
> is similar to a field in that it is produced
> by a large number of small things all
> doing a coordinated action.
>
> Math is not reality, Michael.
> Trees fall in forests with no one to
> see or hear them. Cats die in boxes
> whether you look or not. Math is a
> helpful tool, but not when you start
> thinking it's more than a description of
> what is or can be happening.
> That's part of your problem, Mochael
>


-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#512689

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 07:22 -0700
Message-ID<3cc70248-2a46-4233-970b-31c92bdd3a1f@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#512682
Odd
You have math and reality mixed together.

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#512693

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 09:33 -0500
Message-ID<mqd136$j90$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#512689
On 8/11/2015 9:22 AM, john wrote:
> Odd
> You have math and reality mixed together.
>

Well, I guess that's true of physicists, then, because they are the ones 
saying fields are real.

Now, YOU may think that fields are nothing but mathematics and are not 
real. But then again, you know precious little about mathematics and 
even less about physics, and so it's hard to take you seriously on your 
position, aintzatso?

-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#512696

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 07:44 -0700
Message-ID<f92ae058-48e4-4a1d-b3cf-de8f9dadff3c@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#512693
What is it that shapes a magnetic field's
lines, Odd?

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#512710

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 10:22 -0500
Message-ID<mqd404$rid$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#512696
On 8/11/2015 9:44 AM, john wrote:
> What is it that shapes a magnetic field's
> lines, Odd?
>

A magnetic field doesn't have lines, John. There are no lines on a hill 
either, though there are on a topographical map of a hill. A magnetic 
field line is a way to represent the field visually, that's all, just 
like a topo map is a way to represent a hill. On a field line kind of 
map, the spacing between adjacent lines at any point tells you how big 
the field is at that point, and the tangent to the line at any point 
tells you the direction of the field.

Now, you may have seen a 3rd grade demonstration of sprinkling iron 
filings in a magnetic field, and somebody may have said, "See? Those are 
the field lines." And they would have been lying to you. What you saw is 
due to the tendencies of iron filings to 1) orient themselves so that 
their longest dimension is in the direction of the magnetic field, 2) 
touch each other so that the magnetic domains at the tips are reinforced 
by the field of a neighboring filing. This results in a pattern of iron 
filings that would be similar to what a magnetic field line kind of map 
would look like. But the iron filings are not showing you where magnetic 
fields lines are, because there are no such things in real life.

The fact that your 3rd-grade exposure to magnetic fields is not an 
accurate representation may come as a huge disappointment to you. You 
may not want to believe that you were fooled. But if you bothered to 
look at an introductory physics text and READ THE WORDS and not just 
look at the pictures, you'd see that you were in fact fooled.

-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#512731

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 09:53 -0700
Message-ID<8f6aec9b-bb7f-4f5a-90c9-0f3836cc06c2@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#512710
Odd
Exactly right.
A field IS A MAP. It is not a real thing.
You are making progress.

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#512761

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 13:05 -0500
Message-ID<mqddhp$lmq$2@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#512731
On 8/11/2015 11:53 AM, john wrote:
> Odd
> Exactly right.
> A field IS A MAP. It is not a real thing.

Nope, it's a real thing, according to physicists.

> You are making progress.
>


-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#512766

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 11:19 -0700
Message-ID<f9106ce3-27c1-4e8b-a1f8-004ebec9689a@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#512761
It is a map of measured values at a
point in space. If you are measuring
magnetism, all you have to do is to
move the magnet and the field moves, too, because the magnet is the source. 
Is the air movement around a fan
a "field", Odd?

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#512769

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 13:25 -0500
Message-ID<mqdemh$o0t$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#512766
On 8/11/2015 1:19 PM, john wrote:
> It is a map of measured values at a
> point in space.

Values of WHAT, John?

>  If you are measuring
> magnetism, all you have to do is to
> move the magnet and the field moves, too, because the magnet is the source.
> Is the air movement around a fan
> a "field", Odd?
>

Why, yes, John. The velocity vectors of the air at each location in 
space as a function of time forms a field, John. Very real thing.

Atmospheric temperature maps are an example of a scalar field, as 
another example. Very real thing.


-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#512774

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 11:42 -0700
Message-ID<198121ec-7e45-46f0-8e1a-c638adc50fe7@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#512769
Odd

It's not a thing.
It's an effect. It has a source. Take
away the source and there is no
field.
A "thing" exists on its own.
Fields are not "things". They are
remote effects of things.

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#512781

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 13:54 -0500
Message-ID<mqdgcp$slk$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#512774
On 8/11/2015 1:42 PM, john wrote:
> Odd
>
> It's not a thing.
> It's an effect. It has a source. Take
> away the source and there is no
> field.

That's not so John. The electromagnetic field exists everywhere.
Move a magnet, and all you do is change where a place of concentration is.

But let's say you have a magnet in Des Moines. The field from that 
magnet stretches all the way to China. But let's say you take away the 
magnet and ship it far, far away -- all the way to China. Is there a 
magnetic field still there in Des Moines? Why yes, of course there is.

So when you say "take it away", where are you taking it to?

> A "thing" exists on its own.

You say a thing exists on its own. So let's talk about a cloud. Is a 
cloud a thing or not? After all, depending on the collision of air 
masses, the cloud might appear where there wasn't one before and it 
might disappear an hour from now. And if a cloud disappears, has the 
water that makes it up disappeared? Wait, where did the water come from 
when the cloud appeared in the middle of the sky?

You have this funny expression "thing" and a funny and vague definition 
of it. I wonder what you mean by it.

> Fields are not "things". They are
> remote effects of things.
>


-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#512797

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 12:29 -0700
Message-ID<b6783d72-922a-484c-be20-05fdc399f2ed@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#512781
Odd
You bob and weave like Cassius.
Take the magnet away from under the
paper and pour on your iron filings.
Nothing. You say the field is still there?
I don't understand what you're saying,
Odd- do you?

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#512821

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 15:05 -0500
Message-ID<mqdki7$6qh$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#512797
On 8/11/2015 2:29 PM, john wrote:
> Odd
> You bob and weave like Cassius.
> Take the magnet away from under the
> paper and pour on your iron filings.
> Nothing.

Probably not.

> You say the field is still there?

Heck yes. Maybe not with enough strength to get the filings to overcome 
friction with the sheet of paper and to line up.

> I don't understand what you're saying,
> Odd- do you?
>

It's not surprising you don't understand what I'm saying.

I'm saying that if you take a refrigerator magnet away from the 
refrigerator and carry it into the next room, there is still a field 
that is in the space between the magnet and the refrigerator, even if 
you can't FEEL it. On the other hand, you can't feel the earth's 
magnetic field (or for that matter, the sun's), but they're still there, 
aren't there. Note that you can't measure the earth's magnetic field by 
sprinkling iron filings on a sheet of paper, either, but you can find it 
with a Boy Scout Compass. That field is about 1/2 a gauss. Now if you 
want to find a field that is, say a hundredth of a gauss, then a Boy 
Scout compass isn't going to work either, but other devices will.

John, you are completely wrapped around the axle with what you know from 
your common experience, which as it turns out is pretty danged limited.


-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#512825

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 13:24 -0700
Message-ID<8327c540-60db-4006-9d23-668fe26ad257@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#512821
Odd
You're blowing smoke.
Let's use an electromagnet.
Pull the plug.
Where's the field?

A "field" doesn't have independent 
existence, Odd.

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#512830

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 15:32 -0500
Message-ID<mqdm3v$a7l$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#512825
On 8/11/2015 3:24 PM, john wrote:
> Odd
> You're blowing smoke.

I really don't think so.

> Let's use an electromagnet.
> Pull the plug.

OK.

> Where's the field?

Everywhere. It just doesn't have the value right here that it did before.

>
> A "field" doesn't have independent
> existence, Odd.
>

Well, as we discussed, neither do clouds. Are clouds "things", John? Or 
are they just manifestations of temperature gradients and water vapor 
density?

You seem to be hammering on an idea of "independent existence" that 
doesn't seem to have a lot of meaning.

How about the word "smaller"? Does that word exist? Does it have 
independent existence?

How about the suction from a vacuum cleaner? Does that have independent 
existence?

-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#512841

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 13:55 -0700
Message-ID<a19f7947-b371-4b40-891d-b0c54ea48c3f@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#512830
Odd 
The point is this: fields exist because
of a source. something is either being
actively contributed by the source
which changes the space or is
being actively blocked by the source
which again changes the space.

A "field" is a measurement of the
change in the space because that
"something" has been added to or
subtracted from it.
The question is, for each field,
what is that "something"?
That goes for Gravity, also.

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#512861

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 17:15 -0500
Message-ID<mqds5d$oe3$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#512841
On 8/11/2015 3:55 PM, john wrote:
> Odd
> The point is this: fields exist because
> of a source. something is either being
> actively contributed by the source
> which changes the space or is
> being actively blocked by the source
> which again changes the space.

There is certainly a connection between a source and a field.

Likewise, Saturn's rings would not be there if you removed Saturn.

The claim was, I recall, that a field is not a "thing" because it does 
not have independent existence.

Are Saturn's rings a "thing" or not a "thing"?

>
> A "field" is a measurement of the
> change in the space because that
> "something" has been added to or
> subtracted from it.
> The question is, for each field,
> what is that "something"?
> That goes for Gravity, also.
>

Mass and energy are the sources for gravity.
Electric charge is the source for electromagnetism.
Chromodynamic color is the source for the strong nuclear field.
Weak hypercharge is the source for the weak nuclear field.

So what is the source for Saturn's rings, John?


-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#512870

Fromjohn <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date2015-08-11 15:40 -0700
Message-ID<272899aa-5a4c-465f-b25c-5598a41e082e@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#512861
Odd said

"Mass and energy are the sources for gravity. "
And how is that transmitted?
"Electric charge is the source for electromagnetism."
And how is that transmitted?
" color is the source for the strong nuclear field. "
And how is that transmitted?
"Weak hypercharge is the source for the weak nuclear field. "
And how is that transmitted?

In other words- what is coming from those sources or being absorbed by those
sources that changes the SPACE
and creates the field, Odd?

Any clues? Odd? Swarming things of some
kind? Please tell me. Make it REAL
simple- like Grade 3

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