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How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren’t you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?

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  How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren’t you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-08 19:53 -0500
    Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? Double-A <double-a3@hush.com> - 2015-10-08 17:58 -0700
      Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 08:07 +0200
        Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? Angelo <patrizio.pan-2002@libero.it> - 2015-10-09 09:18 -0700
          Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 18:54 +0200
    Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren’t you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-10-09 04:09 +0000
      Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren’t you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 09:30 -0500
        Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren’t you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-10-13 00:37 +0000
          Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren’t you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-12 21:23 -0500
            Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren’t you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-10-13 02:56 +0000
    Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? Angelo <patrizio.pan-2002@libero.it> - 2015-10-09 09:26 -0700
    Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 10:49 -0700
      Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 12:53 -0500
        Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? Bret Cahill <bretcahill@aol.com> - 2015-10-09 12:54 -0700
          Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 12:57 -0700
            Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 15:12 -0500
              Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 13:19 -0700

#525352 — How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren’t you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?

How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of 
thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren’t you 
making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?
> http://www.askamathematician.com/2013/01/qhow-do-lenses-that-concentrate-light-not-violate-the-second-law-of-thermodynamics-if-you-use-a-magnifying-glass-to-burn-ants-arent-you-making-a-point-hotter-than-the-ambient-temperature-without/


> Physicist: This is a surprisingly subtle question.
>
> It certainly impossible to create new energy, but there’s nothing to
> stop you from piping energy from one place to another (say, by
> running hot water from a boiler to somewhere else).  The case of
> sunlight and a lens is just a matter of controlling where the energy
> is going in a slightly more abstract way.  Focusing light from the
> Sun doesn’t decrease entropy, because what a lens does (this is a
> little hand-wavy) is to exchange “direction information” for
> “position information”.  The light from one direction (from the
> direction of the Sun) gets brought together in one position (the
> focus).

   Keep reading.


-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

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#525353 — Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?

On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 5:53:14 PM UTC-7, Sam Wormley wrote:
> How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of 
> thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you 
> making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?


So, you admit to torturing ants with a magnifying glass?

Double-A

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#525387 — Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?

Dne 09/10/2015 v 02:58 Double-A napsal(a):

> ....If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants,
> 
> So, you admit to torturing ants with a magnifying glass?
> 
Do you use this flaw logic to make conclusions in physics ?

-- 
Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )

Knowledge makes great men humble, but small men arrogant.

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#525438 — Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?

Il giorno venerdì 9 ottobre 2015 08:07:50 UTC+2, Poutnik ha scritto:
> Dne 09/10/2015 v 02:58 Double-A napsal(a):
> 
> > ....If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants,
> > 
> > So, you admit to torturing ants with a magnifying glass?
> > 
> Do you use this flaw logic to make conclusions in physics ?

I think AA was joking!
Oh well, unless you also was (sorry in this case).
 
> -- 
> Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )
> 
> Knowledge makes great men humble, but small men arrogant.

regards
Angelo

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#525447 — Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?

On 10/09/2015 06:18 PM, Angelo wrote:
> Il giorno venerdì 9 ottobre 2015 08:07:50 UTC+2, Poutnik ha scritto:
>> Dne 09/10/2015 v 02:58 Double-A napsal(a):
>>
>>> ....If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants,
>>>
>>> So, you admit to torturing ants with a magnifying glass?
>>>
>> Do you use this flaw logic to make conclusions in physics ?
> 
> I think AA was joking!
> Oh well, unless you also was (sorry in this case).
>  

I suppose neither of us was fully serious...

-- 
Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )

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#525383

Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> wrote:
> How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of 
> thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren?t you 
> making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?

5th grade science, spamming shit head.


-- 
Jim Pennino

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#525425

On 10/8/15 11:09 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> wrote:
>> How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of
>> thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren?t you
>> making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?
>
> 5th grade science, spamming shit head.
>
>

   Because the jimp covered the second law of thermodynamics in his
   5th grade class, he has never has to think about it again.  :-o





-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

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#525931

Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/8/15 11:09 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>> Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of
>>> thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren?t you
>>> making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?
>>
>> 5th grade science, spamming shit head.
>>
>>
> 
>   Because the jimp covered the second law of thermodynamics in his
>   5th grade class, he has never has to think about it again. 

The spamming, ignorant shit head is jealous of an actual education.
 
 

-- 
Jim Pennino

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#525946

On 10/12/15 7:37 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>
> The spamming, ignorant shit head is jealous of an actual education.
>
>
>

   Actually I always thought the jimp was jealous of those that provide
   content.   :-o

   How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of
   thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren’t
   you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing
   energy?
> http://www.askamathematician.com/2013/01/qhow-do-lenses-that-concentrate-light-not-violate-the-second-law-of-thermodynamics-if-you-use-a-magnifying-glass-to-burn-ants-arent-you-making-a-point-hotter-than-the-ambient-temperature-without/

 > Physicist: This is a surprisingly subtle question.
 >
 > It certainly impossible to create new energy, but there’s nothing to
 > stop you from piping energy from one place to another (say, by
 > running hot water from a boiler to somewhere else).  The case of
 > sunlight and a lens is just a matter of controlling where the energy
 > is going in a slightly more abstract way.  Focusing light from the
 > Sun doesn’t decrease entropy, because what a lens does (this is a
 > little hand-wavy) is to exchange “direction information” for
 > “position information”.  The light from one direction (from the
 > direction of the Sun) gets brought together in one position (the
 > focus).

   Keep reading.




-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#525956

Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/12/15 7:37 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>> The spamming, ignorant shit head is jealous of an actual education.
>>
>   Actually I always thought the jimp was jealous of those that provide
>   content.

What would you know about content, you cut and paste spamming piece
of shit?


-- 
Jim Pennino

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#525439 — Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?

Il giorno venerdì 9 ottobre 2015 02:53:14 UTC+2, Sam Wormley ha scritto:

Sam please have a look at your titlings.

(Synthesis is a virtue)

regards
Angelo

PS - what about:

Lenses and II law

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#525459 — Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?

On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 5:53:14 PM UTC-7, Sam Wormley wrote:
> How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of 
> thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you 
> making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?
> > http://www.askamathematician.com/2013/01/qhow-do-lenses-that-concentrate-light-not-violate-the-second-law-of-thermodynamics-if-you-use-a-magnifying-glass-to-burn-ants-arent-you-making-a-point-hotter-than-the-ambient-temperature-without/
> 
> 
> > Physicist: This is a surprisingly subtle question.
> >
> > It certainly impossible to create new energy, but there's nothing to
> > stop you from piping energy from one place to another (say, by
> > running hot water from a boiler to somewhere else).  The case of
> > sunlight and a lens is just a matter of controlling where the energy
> > is going in a slightly more abstract way.  Focusing light from the
> > Sun doesn't decrease entropy, because what a lens does (this is a
> > little hand-wavy) is to exchange "direction information" for
> > "position information".  The light from one direction (from the
> > direction of the Sun) gets brought together in one position (the
> > focus).
> 
>    Keep reading.
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
> to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
> community, and physics-related social issues.



"Optical lenses or focused radio effect?

This is where EM and sound etc attenuate 
through space [1] but lenses are focus-ed (to focus, 
refining the optical line of sight in the tunnel).

[1] in media"

This is for light as dually optical and thermoelectric 
as it were.  

They both bounce and the fronts are the same as to reform, 
the optical and thermoelectric (or electromagnetic).

Seems the model is accounting for both features.

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#525461 — Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?

On 10/9/15 12:49 PM, Ross A. Finlayson wrote:
> Optical lenses or focused radio effect?

   Here's the original article:
> http://www.askamathematician.com/2013/01/qhow-do-lenses-that-concentrate-light-not-violate-the-second-law-of-thermodynamics-if-you-use-a-magnifying-glass-to-burn-ants-arent-you-making-a-point-hotter-than-the-ambient-temperature-without/

 > Physicist: This is a surprisingly subtle question.
 >
 > It certainly impossible to create new energy, but there’s nothing to
 > stop you from piping energy from one place to another (say, by
 > running hot water from a boiler to somewhere else).  The case of
 > sunlight and a lens is just a matter of controlling where the energy
 > is going in a slightly more abstract way.  Focusing light from the
 > Sun doesn’t decrease entropy, because what a lens does (this is a
 > little hand-wavy) is to exchange “direction information” for
 > “position information”.  The light from one direction (from the
 > direction of the Sun) gets brought together in one position (the
 > focus).

   Keep reading.

-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#525484 — Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?

> > Optical lenses or focused radio effect?
> 
>    Here's the original article:
> > http://www.askamathematician.com/2013/01/qhow-do-lenses-that-concentrate-light-not-violate-the-second-law-of-thermodynamics-if-you-use-a-magnifying-glass-to-burn-ants-arent-you-making-a-point-hotter-than-the-ambient-temperature-without/
> 
>  > Physicist: This is a surprisingly subtle question.
>  >
>  > It certainly impossible to create new energy, but there's nothing to
>  > stop you from piping energy from one place to another (say, by
>  > running hot water from a boiler to somewhere else).  The case of
>  > sunlight and a lens is just a matter of controlling where the energy
>  > is going in a slightly more abstract way.  Focusing light from the
>  > Sun doesn't decrease entropy, because what a lens does (this is a
>  > little hand-wavy) is to exchange "direction information" for
>  > "position information".  The light from one direction (from the
>  > direction of the Sun) gets brought together in one position (the
>  > focus).

In terms of a solar thermal heat engine, higher temperature results in higher efficiency generating mechanical /electrical energy.  Higher efficiency is associated with lower entropy.  The higher efficiency, however, isn't caused by reducing the entropy of sunlight, which is already rock bottom.

This suggests there might be a good opportunity for non concentrating solar PV to reach much higher efficiencies, maybe even as high as a Carnot engine operating at material limits, i.e., 2,000 degrees.

There might be some combination of Laws of Thermo and materials science so they'll eventually prove you'll never get above 71% theoretical efficiency.  This still leaves a lot of room for advancement in cheap PV, up to, say, 52%.

They've already dropped dish Stirling solar thermal.  With the introduction of cheap "rhubarb" flow batteries, it's time to drop all thermal solar and just focus, no pun intended, on increasing the efficiency of PV.

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#525485 — Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?

On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 12:54:57 PM UTC-7, Bret Cahill wrote:
> > > Optical lenses or focused radio effect?
> > 
> >    Here's the original article:
> > > http://www.askamathematician.com/2013/01/qhow-do-lenses-that-concentrate-light-not-violate-the-second-law-of-thermodynamics-if-you-use-a-magnifying-glass-to-burn-ants-arent-you-making-a-point-hotter-than-the-ambient-temperature-without/
> > 
> >  > Physicist: This is a surprisingly subtle question.
> >  >
> >  > It certainly impossible to create new energy, but there's nothing to
> >  > stop you from piping energy from one place to another (say, by
> >  > running hot water from a boiler to somewhere else).  The case of
> >  > sunlight and a lens is just a matter of controlling where the energy
> >  > is going in a slightly more abstract way.  Focusing light from the
> >  > Sun doesn't decrease entropy, because what a lens does (this is a
> >  > little hand-wavy) is to exchange "direction information" for
> >  > "position information".  The light from one direction (from the
> >  > direction of the Sun) gets brought together in one position (the
> >  > focus).
> 
> In terms of a solar thermal heat engine, higher temperature results in higher efficiency generating mechanical /electrical energy.  Higher efficiency is associated with lower entropy.  The higher efficiency, however, isn't caused by reducing the entropy of sunlight, which is already rock bottom.
> 
> This suggests there might be a good opportunity for non concentrating solar PV to reach much higher efficiencies, maybe even as high as a Carnot engine operating at material limits, i.e., 2,000 degrees.
> 
> There might be some combination of Laws of Thermo and materials science so they'll eventually prove you'll never get above 71% theoretical efficiency.  This still leaves a lot of room for advancement in cheap PV, up to, say, 52%.
> 
> They've already dropped dish Stirling solar thermal.  With the introduction of cheap "rhubarb" flow batteries, it's time to drop all thermal solar and just focus, no pun intended, on increasing the efficiency of PV.

Images flip instead of spin!

Also they spin!

This is over the focus.

Their usual associated matter transport spins.

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#525491 — Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?

On 10/9/15 2:57 PM, Ross A. Finlayson wrote:
> Images flip instead of spin!

   What do you mean?


-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

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#525492 — Re: How do lenses that concentrate light not violate the second law of thermodynamics? If you use a magnifying glass to burn ants, aren't you making a point hotter than the ambient temperature without losing energy?

On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 1:12:24 PM UTC-7, Sam Wormley wrote:
> On 10/9/15 2:57 PM, Ross A. Finlayson wrote:
> > Images flip instead of spin!
> 
>    What do you mean?
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
> to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
> community, and physics-related social issues.

This is over the focus!

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