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Groups > sci.physics > #689172 > unrolled thread

Can quantum measurement be rejected ?

Started bywill <willscranton@butchersboulevard.commypanprofile>
First post2018-06-06 18:07 +0000
Last post2018-06-06 16:30 -0400
Articles 16 on this page of 96 — 15 participants

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  Can  quantum measurement be rejected ? will <willscranton@butchersboulevard.commypanprofile> - 2018-06-06 18:07 +0000
    Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 18:14 +0000
      Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? will <willscranton@butchersboulevard.commypanprofile> - 2018-06-06 22:38 +0000
        Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? Alan Folmsbee <omnilobe@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 17:43 -0700
          Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? will <willscranton@butchersboulevard.commypanprofile> - 2018-06-07 22:07 +0000
            Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? Alan Folmsbee <omnilobe@gmail.com> - 2018-06-07 17:12 -0700
              Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? will <willscranton@butchersboulevard.commypanprofile> - 2018-06-08 14:49 +0000
        Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-06 22:39 -0400
          Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-06-07 05:19 +0200
            Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-07 05:31 -0400
              Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-06-07 12:01 +0200
                Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-07 16:32 -0400
                  Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? will <willscranton@butchersboulevard.commypanprofile> - 2018-06-07 21:58 +0000
                    Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-08 04:12 -0700
                      Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? will <willscranton@butchersboulevard.commypanprofile> - 2018-06-08 14:38 +0000
                  Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-06-08 02:41 +0200
    "Quantum Mechanics" has no cause and effect, just probabilities. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-06 11:47 -0700
      Re: "Quantum Mechanics" has no cause and effect, just probabilities. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 19:00 +0000
        We assert useful premises, disregarding the truth. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-06 12:25 -0700
          Re: We assert useful premises, disregarding the truth. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-06 16:35 -0400
            Re: We assert useful premises, disregarding the truth. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-06 17:52 -0700
              Re: We assert useful premises, disregarding the truth. mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-06-06 18:15 -0700
              No truth, Nothing to aspire to ? Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-06 18:21 -0700
                Re: No truth, Nothing to aspire to ? benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-06 22:47 -0400
                  NO TRUTH. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-06 20:28 -0700
                    Re: NO TRUTH. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-07 05:32 -0400
                      Harp playing, androgynous angels in the clouds ? Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-07 11:18 -0700
                        Re: Harp playing, androgynous angels in the clouds ? benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-07 16:42 -0400
                          Ben Jacoby takes _pride_ in his randomness, I don't. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-07 14:15 -0700
                            Re: Ben Jacoby takes _pride_ in his randomness, I don't. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-08 02:20 -0400
                              Worshiping Ignorance. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-07 23:36 -0700
                                Re: Worshiping Ignorance. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-08 11:42 -0400
                                  " I can choose to do the opposite of what I prefer " -- Ben Jacoby. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-08 10:17 -0700
                                  Re: Worshiping Ignorance. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-09 01:58 +0000
                                    Re: Worshiping Ignorance. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-08 19:55 -0700
                                      Re: Worshiping Ignorance. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-09 21:37 +0000
                                        EINSTEIN's category, far from the Pope. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 14:51 -0700
                                          Re: EINSTEIN's category, far from the Pope. Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2018-06-09 22:01 +0000
                                            To a retard, _everything_ is "random". Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 15:11 -0700
                                            Re: EINSTEIN's category, far from the Pope. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 15:13 -0700
                                            Re: EINSTEIN's category, far from the Pope. Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-10 15:52 -0700
                                          Re: EINSTEIN's category, far from the Pope. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-09 22:54 +0000
                                            People are forever MisQuoting Einstein; I correct them. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 16:40 -0700
                                              Re: People are forever MisQuoting Einstein; I correct them. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-10 00:15 +0000
                                                Putting words in Einstein's mouth. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 17:42 -0700
                                                  Re: Putting words in Einstein's mouth. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-10 00:59 +0000
                                                    God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he". Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 18:28 -0700
                                                      Re: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he". vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-10 01:42 +0000
                                                        Mark Twain was a determinist. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 20:16 -0700
                                                          Re: Mark Twain was a determinist. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-10 12:48 -0400
                                                            Quantum Mechanics is statistical, not complete. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-10 10:51 -0700
                                                              Re: Quantum Mechanics is statistical, not complete. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-11 11:02 -0400
                                                                Quantum Mechanics is statistical, not complete. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 09:20 -0700
                                                                  Re: Quantum Mechanics is statistical, not complete. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-11 17:09 -0400
                                                                    Bell's theorem is just another "I don't know". Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 14:32 -0700
                                                                      Re: Bell's theorem is just another "I don't know". Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-11 14:33 -0700
                                                                        No one can "prove" ThermoDynamics and/or General Relativity, 100.00000000%. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 15:00 -0700
                                                                          Re: No one can "prove" ThermoDynamics and/or General Relativity, 100.00000000%. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-11 15:01 -0700
                                                                            We assert _useful_ premises ( and ThermoDynamics is _Very_ useful ). Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 15:27 -0700
                                                                      Re: Bell's theorem is just another "I don't know". benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-11 19:57 -0400
                                                                        Re: Bell's theorem is just another "I don't know". vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-12 17:11 +0000
                                                                          SuperDeterminism was useful to Einstein, and to me. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-12 12:03 -0700
                                                                            Re: SuperDeterminism was useful to Einstein, and to me. Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-13 09:03 -0700
                                                                              Enjoy your silly hat. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-13 14:46 -0700
                                                                                Re: Enjoy your silly hat. Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-14 08:20 -0700
                                                                                  Sex toys/dolls. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-15 00:44 -0700
                                                                                    Re: Sex toys/dolls. Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-15 05:49 -0700
                                                                                      Re: Sex toys/dolls. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-15 11:47 -0400
                                                                                      MostChristian != BestChristian Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-15 13:46 -0700
                                                      Re: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he". mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-06-09 19:37 -0700
                                                      Re: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he". benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-09 22:59 -0400
                                                        Re: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he". vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-10 03:51 +0000
                                                          Re: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he". benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-10 12:50 -0400
                                                            Mark Twain, Einstein and Stephen Hawking are revered by nerds Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-10 11:01 -0700
                                                              Re: Mark Twain, Einstein and Stephen Hawking are revered by nerds benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-11 11:06 -0400
                                                                Asleep, living in a dream. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 10:04 -0700
                                                                  Re: Asleep, living in a dream. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-11 14:22 -0500
                                                                  Re: Asleep, living in a dream. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-11 17:21 -0400
                                                                    Your house is built on sand. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 14:43 -0700
                                                    Re: Putting words in Einstein's mouth. chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2018-06-11 07:02 -0500
                                                      Quantum Mechanics is _not_ complete. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 09:41 -0700
                                                        Re: Quantum Mechanics is _not_ complete. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-11 17:17 -0400
                                                          "statistics is [sic] real" -- Ben Jacoby. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 14:39 -0700
                                                            Re: "statistics is [sic] real" -- Ben Jacoby. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-11 14:53 -0700
                                                              When I hear the word "Quantum", I replace it with the word "BullShit". Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 15:09 -0700
                                                            Re: "statistics is [sic] real" -- Ben Jacoby. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-11 20:00 -0400
                                                              " I can't know "  -- Bell's Theorem. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 19:29 -0700
                                          Re: EINSTEIN's category, far from the Pope. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-09 22:28 -0400
                                        Re: Worshiping Ignorance. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 14:53 -0700
                                          Re: Worshiping Ignorance. Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-06-09 16:41 -0700
                                    If the truth is your enemy... Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 00:14 -0700
                                    Re: Worshiping Ignorance. Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2018-06-09 06:52 -0400
          Re: We assert useful premises, disregarding the truth. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 21:22 +0000
            I feel rich, very rich. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-06 14:39 -0700
        Re: "Quantum Mechanics" has no cause and effect, just probabilities. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-06 16:32 -0400
      Re: "Quantum Mechanics" has no cause and effect, just probabilities. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-06 16:30 -0400

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#690019 — Quantum Mechanics is _not_ complete.

FromJeff-Relf.Me @.
Date2018-06-11 09:41 -0700
SubjectQuantum Mechanics is _not_ complete.
Message-ID<Jeff-Relf.Me@Jun.11--9.41am.Seattle.2018>
In reply to#689983
"chrisv"[sic] replied to Scott ( speaking of me ):
> > Tut tut -- it must be really annoying when 
> > the "ShitHeads" turn out to be right, eh?  Lul.
> 
> a 'moron' is able to hand you your ass, 
> every time you go up against him ?

I get upset when normal people, like Scott,
(mistakenly) put words into Einstein's mouth.

Not the "God doesn't play dice" thing, but Scott's:

    [ Einstien ] had to admit that 
    the Copenhagen interpretation was MORE ACCURATE 
    than he was comfortable with.

The Copenhagen interpretation is: "Shut Up and Calculate".
Einstein knew that Quantum Mechanics is _not_ complete;
correlation does not imply causation.

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#690087 — Re: Quantum Mechanics is _not_ complete.

Frombenj <benj@nobody.net>
Date2018-06-11 17:17 -0400
SubjectRe: Quantum Mechanics is _not_ complete.
Message-ID<tFBTC.71412$3R1.54287@fx16.iad>
In reply to#690019
On 6/11/2018 12:41 PM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
> "chrisv"[sic] replied to Scott ( speaking of me ):
>>> Tut tut -- it must be really annoying when
>>> the "ShitHeads" turn out to be right, eh?  Lul.
>>
>> a 'moron' is able to hand you your ass,
>> every time you go up against him ?
> 
> I get upset when normal people, like Scott,
> (mistakenly) put words into Einstein's mouth.
> 
> Not the "God doesn't play dice" thing, but Scott's:
> 
>      [ Einstien ] had to admit that
>      the Copenhagen interpretation was MORE ACCURATE
>      than he was comfortable with.
> 
> The Copenhagen interpretation is: "Shut Up and Calculate".
> Einstein knew that Quantum Mechanics is _not_ complete;
> correlation does not imply causation.
> 
Math is real science, Rolf. Too bad you don't understand that statistics 
is real And even if you were willing to shut up (which you aren't) you 
would still never be able to calculate!

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#690102 — "statistics is [sic] real" -- Ben Jacoby.

FromJeff-Relf.Me @.
Date2018-06-11 14:39 -0700
Subject"statistics is [sic] real" -- Ben Jacoby.
Message-ID<Jeff-Relf.Me@Jun.11--2.39pm.Seattle.2018>
In reply to#690087
You (Ben) replied ( to me ):
> > The Copenhagen interpretation is: "Shut Up and Calculate".
> > Einstein knew that Quantum Mechanics is _not_ complete;
> > correlation does not imply causation.
> 
> statistics is [sic] real 

Exactly, like those polls that said Hillary would be our next president.

> you [can't] calculate!

Jeff-Relf.Me/X.ZIP

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#690109 — Re: "statistics is [sic] real" -- Ben Jacoby.

FromSnit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
Date2018-06-11 14:53 -0700
SubjectRe: "statistics is [sic] real" -- Ben Jacoby.
Message-ID<fo89a7For1uU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#690102
On 6/11/18 2:39 PM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
> You (Ben) replied ( to me ):
>>> The Copenhagen interpretation is: "Shut Up and Calculate".
>>> Einstein knew that Quantum Mechanics is _not_ complete;
>>> correlation does not imply causation.
>>
>> statistics is [sic] real
> 
> Exactly, like those polls that said Hillary would be our next president.

No poll said that. Some THINK they did from ignorance of statistics, 
though.

Overall they gave Clinton about a 70% chance of winning, Trump about a 30%.

>> you [can't] calculate!
> 
> Jeff-Relf.Me/X.ZIP
> 


-- 
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They 
cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel 
somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

<https://youtu.be/H4NW-Cqh308>

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#690117 — When I hear the word "Quantum", I replace it with the word "BullShit".

FromJeff-Relf.Me @.
Date2018-06-11 15:09 -0700
SubjectWhen I hear the word "Quantum", I replace it with the word "BullShit".
Message-ID<Jeff-Relf.Me@Jun.11--3.09pm.Seattle.2018>
In reply to#690109
The SnitBot replied ( to me ):
> > > statistics is [sic] real
> > 
> > Exactly, like those polls that said Hillary would be our next president.
> 
> No poll said that. 
> Some THINK they did from ignorance of statistics, though.

Like Quantum Mechanics, statistics can be misleading.

When I hear the word "Quantum", I replace it with the word "BullShit";
"Quantum Computer" becomes "BullShit Computer", for example.

When I hear "love", I replace it with "30 year mortgage".

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#690134 — Re: "statistics is [sic] real" -- Ben Jacoby.

Frombenj <benj@nobody.net>
Date2018-06-11 20:00 -0400
SubjectRe: "statistics is [sic] real" -- Ben Jacoby.
Message-ID<m2ETC.341599$DS3.339677@fx42.iad>
In reply to#690102
On 6/11/2018 5:39 PM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
> You (Ben) replied ( to me ):
>>> The Copenhagen interpretation is: "Shut Up and Calculate".
>>> Einstein knew that Quantum Mechanics is _not_ complete;
>>> correlation does not imply causation.
>>
>> statistics is [sic] real
> 
> Exactly, like those polls that said Hillary would be our next president.
> 
>> you [can't] calculate!
> 
> Jeff-Relf.Me/X.ZIP
> 
Thanks for the grammar corrections, Lib.

One just can't talk to religious believers. All they do is thump their 
bibles!

Rolf you are as dumb and as confused as any Lib. Give it up.

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#690163 — " I can't know " -- Bell's Theorem.

FromJeff-Relf.Me @.
Date2018-06-11 19:29 -0700
Subject" I can't know " -- Bell's Theorem.
Message-ID<Jeff-Relf.Me@Jun.11--7.29pm.Seattle.2018>
In reply to#690134
Looking in the mirror, you (Ben) told yourself:
> you are as dumb and as confused as any Lib.  Give up.

Naturally; 
men of _your_ intellectual standing are forever telling themselves:

    " I can't know "  -- Bell's Theorem.

    " Shut Up and Calculate "  -- The Copenhagen Interpretation.

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#689831 — Re: EINSTEIN's category, far from the Pope.

Frombenj <benj@nobody.net>
Date2018-06-09 22:28 -0400
SubjectRe: EINSTEIN's category, far from the Pope.
Message-ID<s10TC.385698$nq5.138230@fx36.iad>
In reply to#689746
On 6/9/2018 5:51 PM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
> Scott replied ( to Mike ):
>>> How do you know if you have free will ?
>>
>> This is very much wrapped up in the "hard" problem of consciousness,
>> and without an appreciation of that, you can find yourself stuck in
>> long-refuted 19th century determinism.
> 
> "refuted" by whom, the Pope ?
> 
> Everyone avoids the truth, to some extent;
> we assert _useful_ premises, irregardless of the truth;
> hence ego, online gaming and religion.
> 
> Einstein, on the other hand, loved the truth, more than most.
> To his death, he kept telling us: free will is an illusion.
> 
>> One point is that the universe has already demonstrated it has non-
>> deterministic processes, so there is the very real possibility that
>> consciousness is also non-deterministic.
> 
> All of history, every lesson ever, every advance, tells me ( not you ):
> 
>    Randomness is ignorance, nothing more;
>    otherwise, there'd be NO TRUTH, nothing for me to aspire to.
> 
>> If you don't experience your will as being free,
>> then you belong in [ EINSTEIN's ] category [ far from the Pope ].
> 
> _Everyone_ is enslaved, there is no free will.
> We simply prefer the LeastBad "option",
> and we can't change what we prefer.
> 
> How and What we consume is what makes us different.
> 
> At the start, there was no entropy, just infinite eXergy/density.
> [ eXergy is a type of energy that can do physical work, force * distance ]
> And, because " Time == Entropy ", there was no time on the clock then.
> 
> Eventually, this eXergy will be consumed away, replaced with entropy;
> leaving us with a uniform heat bath that has all of the energy
> but none of the eXergy.  Gravity is the "memory" of where the stuff was.
> 
> General Relativity's four dimensional TimeScape is static, eternal,
> perfectly causal... it is, at once, everything _and_ nothing.
> 
Preach it Rev, Preach it!
Your last statement was all ready refuted beyond any doubt and yet you 
just keep preaching your religion over and over as if somehow that will 
one day make it correct.

Rolf, Give it up.

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#689749 — Re: Worshiping Ignorance.

FromSnit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
Date2018-06-09 14:53 -0700
SubjectRe: Worshiping Ignorance.
Message-ID<fo30ioFongoU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#689728
On 6/9/18 2:37 PM, vallor wrote:
...
>> How do you know if you have free will?
> 
> If you have to ask that question, then you don't have it.

So just a feeling. Fair enough. But you cannot know if this feeling is true.

> I would leave it at that, but perhaps you are making a serious inquiry.

Well, I have had these types of discussions many times. I know there is 
no real answer... but curious what folks say. Maybe they will surprise 
me. :)

> In that case, I suggest you consider points made by some modern
> philosophers.
> 
> This is very much wrapped up in the "hard" problem of consciousness, and
> without an appreciation of that, you can find yourself stuck in long-
> refuted 19th century determinism.
> 
> One point is that the universe has already demonstrated it has non-
> deterministic processes, so there is the very real possibility that
> consciousness is also non-deterministic.
> 
> Another one is that if free will is an illusion[*], it's very hard to
> shake off.

That I agree with. Well, sort of. What even do we mean by free will? Not 
determined? If so then is it random? If not either what else is there 
(other than a combination)?

> If these ideas truly interest you, I suggest watching Dr. Searle's Google
> talk, found here:
> 
>     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCyKNtocdZE

I have read some of his work... and am familiar with the "Chinese Room" 
argument (and the weaknesses of it, or at least some). Overall I would 
side more with Dennett... though I have disagreed with him as well.

> Good luck, and may the force be with you.

:)



-- 
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They 
cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel 
somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

<https://youtu.be/H4NW-Cqh308>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#689790 — Re: Worshiping Ignorance.

FromSteve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com>
Date2018-06-09 16:41 -0700
SubjectRe: Worshiping Ignorance.
Message-ID<73e7104a-d73f-4791-9d0a-db71316f232d@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#689749
On Saturday, June 9, 2018 at 2:53:32 PM UTC-7, Snit wrote:
> On 6/9/18 2:37 PM, vallor wrote:
> ...
> >> How do you know if you have free will?
> > 
> > If you have to ask that question, then you don't have it.
> 
> So just a feeling. Fair enough. But you cannot know if this feeling is true.
> 
> > I would leave it at that, but perhaps you are making a serious inquiry.
> 
> Well, I have had these types of discussions many times. I know there is 
> no real answer... but curious what folks say. Maybe they will surprise 
> me. :)
> 
> > In that case, I suggest you consider points made by some modern
> > philosophers.
> > 
> > This is very much wrapped up in the "hard" problem of consciousness, and
> > without an appreciation of that, you can find yourself stuck in long-
> > refuted 19th century determinism.
> > 
> > One point is that the universe has already demonstrated it has non-
> > deterministic processes, so there is the very real possibility that
> > consciousness is also non-deterministic.
> > 
> > Another one is that if free will is an illusion[*], it's very hard to
> > shake off.
> 
> That I agree with. Well, sort of. What even do we mean by free will? Not 
> determined? If so then is it random? If not either what else is there 
> (other than a combination)?
> 
> > If these ideas truly interest you, I suggest watching Dr. Searle's Google
> > talk, found here:
> > 
> >     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCyKNtocdZE
> 
> I have read some of his work... and am familiar with the "Chinese Room" 
> argument (and the weaknesses of it, or at least some). Overall I would 
> side more with Dennett... though I have disagreed with him as well.
> 
> > Good luck, and may the force be with you.
> 
> :)
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They 
> cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel 
> somehow superior by attacking the messenger.
> 
> They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.
> 
> <https://youtu.be/H4NW-Cqh308>



How is Blender on Linux doing anything above the lowest common denominator? Tizen, runs on the Systemd kernel. So yeah, Systemd is mobile. Systemd is a super computer. Systemd is a server. Systemd is a desktop. Systemd is growing in market share. 

No more! Lots of idiots are talking about the open source "UI" as if they think it literally is something we would want. Just give it up already. You're again trying to bolster yourself beyond your grade. You're the court jester and your many incoherent programs show this. 

-- 
One Smart Penny!
http://www.5z8.info/mydick_x6g9hr_nakedgrandmas.jpg
http://www.5z8.info/lemon-party-redux_v1o7pm_nakedgrandmas.jpg
Jonas Eklundh Communication

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#689622 — If the truth is your enemy...

FromJeff-Relf.Me @.
Date2018-06-09 00:14 -0700
SubjectIf the truth is your enemy...
Message-ID<Jeff-Relf.Me@Jun.9--0.14am.Seattle.2018>
In reply to#689593
You (Scott) wrote:
> One way to deal with the "we don't have free will" 
> folks is to believe them.
> 
> Therefore, Jeff is nothing more than a philosophical zombie  ...
> he doesn't know what it is like to be conscious with free will.

If the truth is your enemy, as it is for most
( we assert _useful_ premises, no matter the truth )
than you assert randomness, e.g. the MultiVerse, religion and MMO games.

All of history, every lesson ever, every advance, tells me:

  Randomness is ignorance, nothing more;
  otherwise, there'd be NO TRUTH, nothing for me to aspire to.

_Everyone_ is enslaved, there is no free will.
We simply prefer the LeastBad "option",
and we can't change what we prefer.

How and What we consume is what makes us different.

At the start, there was no entropy, just infinite eXergy/density. 
[ eXergy is a type of energy that can do physical work, force * distance ]
And, because " Time == Entropy ", there was no time on the clock then.

Eventually, this eXergy will be consumed away, replaced with entropy;
leaving us with a uniform heat bath that has all of the energy
but none of the eXergy.  Gravity is the "memory" of where the stuff was.

General Relativity's four dimensional TimeScape is static, eternal, 
perfectly causal... it is, at once, everything _and_ nothing.

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#689635 — Re: Worshiping Ignorance.

FromChris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us>
Date2018-06-09 06:52 -0400
SubjectRe: Worshiping Ignorance.
Message-ID<pfgcif$abn$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#689593
vallor wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> One way to deal with the "we don't have free will" folks is to believe 
> them.

LOL

-- 
For there are moments when one can neither think nor feel.  And if one can
neither think nor feel, she thought, where is one?
		-- Virginia Woolf, "To the Lighthouse"
 
	[Quoted in "VMS Internals and Data Structures", V4.4, when
	 referring to powerfail recovery.]

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#689228 — Re: We assert useful premises, disregarding the truth.

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2018-06-06 21:22 +0000
SubjectRe: We assert useful premises, disregarding the truth.
Message-ID<pf9jau$1t05$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#689197
<Jeff-Relf.Me  @.> wrote:
> You ("Odd" [sic]) replied ( to me ):
>>> "Quantum Mechanics" has no cause and effect, just probabilities;
>>> it tells you the likelihood of something you might bet on,
>>> like a poker game; the details, the real cause, is unknown.
>> 
>> Cause and effect is fully supported in QM. 
>> I think you’re confusing determinism with causality. 
> 
> No, it's SemiRandom, like a poker game... place your bets.
> 
> _Everyone_ is enslaved, there is no free will.
> We simply prefer the LeastBad "option",
> and we can't change what we prefer.
> 
> We assert useful premises, disregarding the truth.
> How and What we consume is what makes us different.
> 

Oh ick. 
Personal self-rationalization of deep poverty and sexual alienation as a
choice rather than as a consequence of numerous other choices. Nothing to
do with physics. 

-- 
Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#689230 — I feel rich, very rich.

FromJeff-Relf.Me @.
Date2018-06-06 14:39 -0700
SubjectI feel rich, very rich.
Message-ID<Jeff-Relf.Me@Jun.6--2.39pm.Seattle.2018>
In reply to#689228
You ("Odd" [sic]) replied ( to me ):
> > _Everyone_ is enslaved, there is no free will.
> > We simply prefer the LeastBad "option",
> > and we can't change what we prefer.
> > 
> > We assert useful premises, disregarding the truth.
> > How and What we consume is what makes us different.
> 
> Oh ick.  Personal self-rationalization of deep poverty 

I feel rich, very rich.

> and sexual alienation 

Sex is a _bad_ deal for everyone involved.
Google "Feminist Porn".

> as a choice rather than as a consequence of numerous other choices.

What ?  you're not making sense.

> Nothing to do with physics. 

_Everything_ is physics, when you're doing it right.

At the start, there was no entropy, just infinite eXergy/density. 
[ eXergy is a type of energy that can do physical work, force * distance ]
And, because " Time == Entropy ", there was no time on the clock then.

Eventually, this eXergy will be consumed away, replaced with entropy;
leaving us with a uniform heat bath that has all of the energy
but none of the eXergy.

Gravity is the "memory" of where the stuff was.

All of history, every lesson ever, every advance, tells us:
  Randomness is ignorance, nothing more.

General Relativity's four dimensional TimeScape is static, eternal, 
perfectly causal... it is, at once, everything _and_ nothing.

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#689213 — Re: "Quantum Mechanics" has no cause and effect, just probabilities.

Frombenj <benj@nobody.net>
Date2018-06-06 16:32 -0400
SubjectRe: "Quantum Mechanics" has no cause and effect, just probabilities.
Message-ID<wxXRC.95712$4M6.73276@fx27.iad>
In reply to#689179
On 6/6/2018 3:00 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote:
> <Jeff-Relf.Me  @.> wrote:
>> "Quantum Mechanics" has no cause and effect, just probabilities;
>> it tells you the likelihood of something you might bet on,
>> like a poker game; the details, the real cause, is unknown.
>>
> 
> Nonsense, Jeff. Cause and effect is fully supported in QM. I think you’re
> confusing determinism with causality.
> 
Nonsense Odd. You need to learn to read. Rolf said that the real cause 
was UNKNOWN! He did not say that there was no cause and effect.

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#689212 — Re: "Quantum Mechanics" has no cause and effect, just probabilities.

Frombenj <benj@nobody.net>
Date2018-06-06 16:30 -0400
SubjectRe: "Quantum Mechanics" has no cause and effect, just probabilities.
Message-ID<UvXRC.95711$4M6.49266@fx27.iad>
In reply to#689176
On 6/6/2018 2:47 PM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
> "Quantum Mechanics" has no cause and effect, just probabilities;
> it tells you the likelihood of something you might bet on,
> like a poker game; the details, the real cause, is unknown.
> 
Quantum Mechanics = Science of Ignorance.

You are starting to catch on, Rolf.

The problem with QM is that even ON AVERAGE it does not act like the 
macro physics we all know and love.
Hence previous explanations and causes cannot be correct at the quantum 
level.

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