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Groups > sci.physics > #634501 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Ckeho Baùkora <unukn@owyqar.og> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-05-27 10:37 +0000 |
| Last post | 2017-06-09 13:35 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 115 — 26 participants |
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Re: GPS Again. Ckeho Baùkora <unukn@owyqar.og> - 2017-05-27 10:37 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-05-30 09:57 -0500
Re: GPS Again. Helmut Wabnig <hwabnig@.- --- -.dotat> - 2017-05-30 20:52 +0200
Re: GPS Again. Ernest Rivers <erwm@weicnne.ac> - 2017-05-30 19:17 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-05-30 15:23 -0500
Re: GPS Again. Helmut Wabnig <hwabnig@.- --- -.dotat> - 2017-05-30 22:53 +0200
Re: GPS Again. Ernest Schwanenflügel <erwm@wanenf.oa> - 2017-05-30 20:59 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-05-31 00:42 +0200
Re: GPS Again. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-05-30 19:03 -0500
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-05-30 21:30 -0500
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-05-30 19:01 -0500
Re: GPS Again. Ernest Rivers <erwm@weicnne.ac> - 2017-05-30 19:15 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-09 11:37 +1000
Re: GPS Again. Jim Limey <eeug@dnne.ri> - 2017-06-09 14:32 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-09 12:51 -0500
Re: GPS Again. Kitubu Nkyaku <akntuu@buwkau.kk> - 2017-06-09 18:52 +0000
Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-10 09:23 +1000
Re: GPS Again. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-10 11:23 +1000
Re: GPS Again. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-10 11:21 +1000
Re: GPS Again. Kitubu Nkyaku <akntuu@buwkau.kk> - 2017-06-10 10:42 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-10 19:38 -0500
Re: GPS Again. Nými Icelulózy <ejienm@wzsfwe.ul> - 2017-06-16 11:30 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Sегgi о <iinvalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-16 10:40 -0500
Re: GPS Again. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-11 11:11 +1000
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-10 21:20 -0500
Re: GPS Again. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-11 12:31 +1000
Re: GPS Again. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-06-10 22:40 -0500
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-10 23:20 -0500
Re: GPS Again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-11 05:14 +1000
Re: GPS Again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-06-10 22:16 +0200
Re: GPS Again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-11 07:19 +1000
Re: GPS Again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-06-11 22:35 +0200
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-11 15:44 -0500
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-11 18:03 -0500
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-11 19:00 -0500
Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-12 11:39 +1000
Re: GPS Again. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-12 02:33 +0000
Re: GPS Again. "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> - 2017-06-12 10:15 -0700
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-12 13:40 -0500
Re: GPS Again. "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> - 2017-06-12 14:19 -0700
Re: GPS Again. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-06-11 22:42 -0500
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-11 23:27 -0500
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-12 04:47 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-12 08:20 -0500
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-12 17:18 +0000
Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-12 18:15 -0400
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-12 22:32 +0000
Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-12 20:48 -0400
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-13 01:52 +0000
Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-13 19:57 -0400
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-14 00:46 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-06-12 09:58 -0500
Re: GPS Again. Selina Dieter <uiueeits@wlwtwstd.ci> - 2017-06-12 15:08 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-12 10:37 -0500
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-12 17:21 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Selina Dieter <uiueeits@wlwtwstd.ci> - 2017-06-12 17:40 +0000
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-12 18:05 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Selina Dieter <uiueeits@wlwtwstd.ci> - 2017-06-12 18:19 +0000
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-12 19:16 +0000
Re: GPS Again. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-12 19:43 +0000
Re: GPS Again. pcardinale@volcanomail.com - 2017-06-12 12:22 -0700
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-12 20:01 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-12 18:32 -0500
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-13 01:54 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-12 22:28 -0500
Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-13 19:59 -0400
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-14 00:48 +0000
Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-13 21:35 -0400
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-14 02:11 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Mahipal <mahipal7638@gmail.com> - 2017-06-13 19:50 -0700
Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-13 23:53 -0400
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-14 05:27 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Sегg iо <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-14 09:10 -0500
Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-14 17:10 -0400
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-14 21:33 +0000
Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-14 18:19 -0400
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-14 22:33 +0000
Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-15 17:01 -0400
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-15 23:09 +0000
Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-13 23:49 -0400
Re: GPS Again. jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2017-06-14 05:29 +0000
Re: GPS Again. Sегg iо <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-13 20:29 -0500
Re: GPS Again. pcardinale@volcanomail.com - 2017-06-13 12:33 -0700
Re: GPS Again. Серг ио <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-13 16:39 -0500
Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-12 18:25 -0400
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-12 18:45 -0500
Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-12 10:35 +1000
Re: GPS Again. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-12 11:05 +1000
Re: GPS Again. Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-11 23:29 -0500
Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-12 20:12 +1000
Re: GPS Again. Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2017-06-12 13:54 +0200
Re: GPS Again. Selina Dieter <uiueeits@wlwtwstd.ci> - 2017-06-12 12:47 +0000
Re: GPS Again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-13 04:13 +1000
Re: GPS Again. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-13 12:59 +1000
Re: GPS Again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-13 04:22 +1000
Re: GPS Again. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-13 13:00 +1000
Re: GPS Again. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-06-13 13:32 -0500
Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-14 10:09 +1000
Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-14 09:34 +1000
Re: GPS Again. Серг ио <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-13 18:42 -0500
Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-14 12:40 +1000
Re: GPS Again. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-14 04:06 +0000
Re: GPS Again. "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> - 2017-06-13 23:01 -0700
Re: GPS Again. Sегg iо <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-13 23:19 -0500
Re: GPS Again. Sегg iо <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-13 23:46 -0500
Re: GPS Again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-14 20:07 +1000
Re: GPS Again. Sегg iо <invalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-14 09:17 -0500
Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-17 08:26 +1000
Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-16 20:40 -0400
Re: GPS Again. Ecembre Abin <umueuu@eibbwaw.ee> - 2017-06-17 08:05 +0000
Re: GPS Again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-17 22:20 +1000
Re: GPS Again. Sегgi о <iinvalid@invalid.com> - 2017-06-17 07:58 -0500
Re: GPS Again. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-06-14 17:06 -0400
Re: GPS Again. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-05-31 09:58 +1000
Re: GPS Again. pcardinale@volcanomail.com - 2017-06-09 13:35 -0700
Page 2 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 Next page →
| From | Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-10 19:38 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ohi3fv$2ms$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #636000 |
On 6/10/2017 5:42 AM, Kitubu Nkyaku wrote:
> Sylvia Else wrote:
>
>> On 10/06/2017 12:32 AM, Jim Limey wrote:
>>> Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>
>>>> The GPS time in the transmitted data from a GPS satellite allows the
>>>> construction of an equation that essentially asserts that the distance
>>>> between the receiver (at the time of reception) and the satellite (at
>>>> the time of transmission) equals the time taken for the data to arrive
>>>> multiplied by the speed of light.
>>>
>>> Mam, you just said you don't know the time for the data to arrive. I
>>> think i'll skip the rest till you make sure you understand the
>>> procedure correctly.
>>
>> The equation expresses a relationship between four unknowns, one of
>> which is the GPS time at the receiver. The time taken by the signal to
>> reach the receiver is the difference between that unknown and the time
>> of transmission as encoded into the signal.
>> This is just simple algebra. Your derisory comment suggests you don't
>> understand it. Sylvia.
>
> Mam, you just convinced the population you are stupid. Has nothing to do
> with what you say and the algorithm, which is simple, can be any, but
> fixed hardwired into the circuity as described above. You are indeed
> stupid.
>
no need to say she is stupid, and it is not simple algebra.
best to google for GPS signal processing, it is much more complicated
spread spectrum, tracking, etc. than simply sending a time stamp back
and forth.
far too complicated to discuss in a newsgroup
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_signals
good one here;
http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~ecalais/teaching/geodesy/GPS_observables.pdf
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| From | Nými Icelulózy <ejienm@wzsfwe.ul> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-16 11:30 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <oi0fh3$b8f$4@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #636040 |
Serg io wrote: > best to google for GPS signal processing, it is much more complicated > spread spectrum, tracking, etc. than simply sending a time stamp back > and forth. To the best of my knowledge that DSP is done by a dedicated chip, sir. Are you a doctor?
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| From | Sегgi о <iinvalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-16 10:40 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <oi0u5g$15e9$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #636630 |
On 6/16/2017 6:30 AM, NÜmi Icelulózy wrote: > Serg io wrote: > >> best to google for GPS signal processing, it is much more complicated >> spread spectrum, tracking, etc. than simply sending a time stamp back >> and forth. > > To the best of my knowledge that DSP is done by a dedicated chip, sir. Are > you a doctor? > Hi, yes it is amazing how far we have gone in integrating GPS, there are cellphone chips out there that have integrated GPS processing too, for $7 on amazon. checkout this GPS chip; $40. Adafruit Ultimate GPS Breakout - 66 channel w/10 Hz updates - Version 3 https://www.amazon.com/Adafruit-Ultimate-GPS-Breakout-channel/dp/B00GLW4016/ref=sr_1_3/134-9404701-3381400?ie=UTF8&qid=1497626679&sr=8-3&keywords=gps+chipset this one is $15 https://www.amazon.com/DIYmall-AeroQuad-Antenna-Arduino-Aircraft/dp/B01H5FNA4K/ref=pd_sbs_147_4?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01H5FNA4K&pd_rd_r=EHK72GE8G5Z76SR0R1FR&pd_rd_w=thiFR&pd_rd_wg=kdjoH&psc=1&refRID=EHK72GE8G5Z76SR0R1FR ............................ the actual processing techniques on a GPS chip of 12 simaltanious GPS is hard to find out in the open, it was a tough design in the past to meet the high # of corrolators AND average power. Then the ARM processors came along... http://pccomponents.com/datasheets/SIRF-GRF2I.PDF "SiRFstarIIe/LP architecture sets the standard for high volume GPS performance. The SiRFstarIIe/LP still uses 1,920 corrolators and 12 channels to provide fast acquisition and reaquisition times, while keeping peak current to under 65 mA. TricklePower extends battery life even further by reducing average current to under 20mA. Now superior performance" I'm no Dr, but have masters,
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| From | Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-11 11:11 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <eq3jm6Fbp3jU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #636000 |
On 10/06/2017 8:42 PM, Kitubu Nkyaku wrote: > Sylvia Else wrote: > >> On 10/06/2017 12:32 AM, Jim Limey wrote: >>> Sylvia Else wrote: >>> >>>> The GPS time in the transmitted data from a GPS satellite allows the >>>> construction of an equation that essentially asserts that the distance >>>> between the receiver (at the time of reception) and the satellite (at >>>> the time of transmission) equals the time taken for the data to arrive >>>> multiplied by the speed of light. >>> >>> Mam, you just said you don't know the time for the data to arrive. I >>> think i'll skip the rest till you make sure you understand the >>> procedure correctly. >> >> The equation expresses a relationship between four unknowns, one of >> which is the GPS time at the receiver. The time taken by the signal to >> reach the receiver is the difference between that unknown and the time >> of transmission as encoded into the signal. >> This is just simple algebra. Your derisory comment suggests you don't >> understand it. Sylvia. > > Mam, you just convinced the population you are stupid. Has nothing to do > with what you say and the algorithm, which is simple, can be any, but > fixed hardwired into the circuity as described above. You are indeed > stupid. > As, I thought, the algebra is beyond you, and you cannot see that regardless of how its implemented, it still has a dependency on the speed of light. Sylvia.
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| From | Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-10 21:20 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ohi9e4$ai1$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #636043 |
On 6/10/2017 8:11 PM, Sylvia Else wrote: > On 10/06/2017 8:42 PM, Kitubu Nkyaku wrote: >> Sylvia Else wrote: >> >>> On 10/06/2017 12:32 AM, Jim Limey wrote: >>>> Sylvia Else wrote: >>>> > > As, I thought, the algebra is beyond you, and you cannot see that > regardless of how its implemented, it still has a dependency on the > speed of light. > > Sylvia. there are relativistic effects that must be backed out, Clocks in orbit appear to run faster (38.3 μsec/day = 11.5 km/day!) ⇒tuned at 10.22999999543 MHz before launching (g.) −Clocks speed is a function of orbit eccentricity (45 nsec= 14 m) 1 Measure arrival time of GPS signals from several satellites simultaneously 2 Decode the GPS signal and figure out the signal propagation time (tr-te), multiply by c= “pseudoranges” (= GPS data, or observables) 3 Decode the navigation message and convert it into satellite positions 4 Use at least 4 pseudoranges acquired at the same time from 4 different satellites to compute a position in an ECEF frame. 5 Convert ECEF position into latitude-longitude-height in any geodetic system (for instance WGS84). (note the sattilite positions must be known, the ECEF is the intersection of 3 spheres
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| From | Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-11 12:31 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <eq3ochFcnfvU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #636045 |
On 11/06/2017 12:20 PM, Serg io wrote: > On 6/10/2017 8:11 PM, Sylvia Else wrote: >> On 10/06/2017 8:42 PM, Kitubu Nkyaku wrote: >>> Sylvia Else wrote: >>> >>>> On 10/06/2017 12:32 AM, Jim Limey wrote: >>>>> Sylvia Else wrote: >>>>> > >> >> As, I thought, the algebra is beyond you, and you cannot see that >> regardless of how its implemented, it still has a dependency on the >> speed of light. >> >> Sylvia. > > there are relativistic effects that must be backed out, Clocks in orbit > appear to run faster (38.3 μsec/day = 11.5 km/day!) > ⇒tuned at 10.22999999543 MHz before launching (g.) > > −Clocks speed is a function of orbit eccentricity (45 nsec= 14 m) > > 1 Measure arrival time of GPS signals from several satellites > simultaneously > > 2 Decode the GPS signal and figure out the signal propagation time > (tr-te), multiply by c= “pseudoranges” (= GPS data, or observables) c being the speed of light, so it depends on the speed of light, which is the point of this subthread. Sylvia.
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| From | Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-10 22:40 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <9-WdndqChJsuJqHEnZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #636045 |
On 6/10/17 6/10/17 9:20 PM, Serg io wrote:
> there are relativistic effects that must be backed out, Clocks in orbit appear
> to run faster (38.3 μsec/day = 11.5 km/day!)
> ⇒tuned at 10.22999999543 MHz before launching (g.)
Yes, a receiver on earth receives satellite signals with a clock frequency of
10.23000000000 MHz, because they were generated at 10.22999999543 MHz and
relativistic effects bring it to that value, as required to keep GPS time in
sync with UTC (which is defined on the geoid).
The relativistic effects must NOT be "backed out", as they are essential to the
operation of the GPS.
> −Clocks speed is a function of orbit eccentricity (45 nsec= 14 m)
Satellite clock tick rate is indeed a function of the satellite's orbital
eccentricity; its contribution to the error budget is quite small.
Your number is just the vacuum speed of light, unrelated to
orbital eccentricities.
> 1 Measure arrival time of GPS signals from several satellites simultaneously
This can only be done approximately -- their signals do NOT arrive
simultaneously. The receiver relies on its local clock to determine the time
differences between the arrivals of the various time markers. The error
introduced by the inaccuracy of the local clock is only significant for the
overall time offset of the local clock (the local clock tick rate is good enough
that its error is negligible over these short durations).
> 2 Decode the GPS signal and figure out the signal propagation time (tr-te),
> multiply by c= “pseudoranges” (= GPS data, or observables)
Yes. Contrary to claims in this thread, this is where the vacuum speed of light
enters the calculation.
> 3 Decode the navigation message and convert it into satellite positions
>
> 4 Use at least 4 pseudoranges acquired at the same time from 4 different
> satellites to compute a position in an ECEF frame.
No. The pseudoranges determine position in the ECI frame. The navigational
messages also contain the details of the transform from ECI to ECEF.
The key property of the GPS is that each satellite clock always displays the GPS
time that an ECI coordinate clock at its current location would display. Since
the vacuum speed of light is isotropically c in the ECI coordinates, the
calculation of pseudo ranges is straightforward (corrections for the effects of
propagation in air are generally small).
> 5 Convert ECEF position into latitude-longitude-height in any geodetic system
> (for instance WGS84).
>
> (note the sattilite positions must be known, the ECEF is the intersection of 3
> spheres
The ECI position is the intersection of FOUR spheres, or it is the best fit
among five or more spheres (limited to 12 because that is the largest number of
GPS satellites visible from any point on earth at any given time).
Most receivers require at least four satellites, because
they must determine 4 values of the position in the ECI:
{x,y,z,t}. Some specialized receivers have algorithms capable
of determining position with fewer satellites by using
additional information (e.g. watching the satellites for a
long time, or knowing the altitude, time, or previous position
independently).
Tom Roberts
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| From | Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-10 23:20 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ohigf0$ir7$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #636048 |
On 6/10/2017 10:40 PM, Tom Roberts wrote:
> On 6/10/17 6/10/17 9:20 PM, Serg io wrote:
>> there are relativistic effects that must be backed out, Clocks in
>> orbit appear to run faster (38.3 μsec/day = 11.5 km/day!)
>> ⇒tuned at 10.22999999543 MHz before launching (g.)
>
> Yes, a receiver on earth receives satellite signals with a clock
> frequency of 10.23000000000 MHz, because they were generated at
> 10.22999999543 MHz and relativistic effects bring it to that value, as
> required to keep GPS time in sync with UTC (which is defined on the geoid).
>
> The relativistic effects must NOT be "backed out", as they are essential
> to the operation of the GPS.
it is a identifiable and calculable error term which is removed
>
>> −Clocks speed is a function of orbit eccentricity (45 nsec= 14 m)
>
> Satellite clock tick rate is indeed a function of the satellite's
> orbital eccentricity; its contribution to the error budget is quite small.
>
> Your number is just the vacuum speed of light, unrelated to
> orbital eccentricities.
nope, 14 meter higher is 45 ns longer...
>
>> 1 Measure arrival time of GPS signals from several satellites
>> simultaneously
>
> This can only be done approximately -- their signals do NOT arrive
> simultaneously.
the statement says 'measure' simultaneously, not arrive .....
> The receiver relies on its local clock to determine the
> time differences between the arrivals of the various time markers.
part of it, but the signals are corrolated...
> The
> error introduced by the inaccuracy of the local clock is only
> significant for the overall time offset of the local clock (the local
> clock tick rate is good enough that its error is negligible over these
> short durations).
in some cases
>
>> 2 Decode the GPS signal and figure out the signal propagation time
>> (tr-te), multiply by c= “pseudoranges” (= GPS data, or observables)
>
> Yes. Contrary to claims in this thread, this is where the vacuum speed
> of light enters the calculation.
>
>> 3 Decode the navigation message and convert it into satellite positions
>>
>> 4 Use at least 4 pseudoranges acquired at the same time from 4
>> different satellites to compute a position in an ECEF frame.
>
> No. The pseudoranges determine position in the ECI frame. The
> navigational messages also contain the details of the transform from ECI
> to ECEF.
see #3 above
>
> The key property of the GPS is that each satellite clock always displays
> the GPS time that an ECI coordinate clock at its current location would
> display. Since the vacuum speed of light is isotropically c in the ECI
> coordinates, the calculation of pseudo ranges is straightforward
> (corrections for the effects of propagation in air are generally small).
small errors cause poor resolution,
>
>> 5 Convert ECEF position into latitude-longitude-height in any geodetic
>> system (for instance WGS84).
>>
>> (note the sattilite positions must be known, the ECEF is the
>> intersection of 3 spheres
>
> The ECI position is the intersection of FOUR spheres, or it is the best
> fit among five or more spheres (limited to 12 because that is the
> largest number of GPS satellites visible from any point on earth at any
> given time).
>
> Most receivers require at least four satellites, because
> they must determine 4 values of the position in the ECI:
> {x,y,z,t}. Some specialized receivers have algorithms capable
> of determining position with fewer satellites by using
> additional information (e.g. watching the satellites for a
> long time, or knowing the altitude, time, or previous position
> independently).
>
> Tom Roberts
>
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| From | "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-11 05:14 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <ohhgbq$18h7$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #635977 |
On 10/06/17 11:21, Sylvia Else wrote: > On 10/06/2017 12:32 AM, Jim Limey wrote: >> > > The equation expresses a relationship between four unknowns, one of > which is the GPS time at the receiver. The time taken by the signal to > reach the receiver is the difference between that unknown and the time > of transmission as encoded into the signal. > > This is just simple algebra. Your derisory comment suggests you don't > understand it. It is not simple once all the relevant 'corrections' are included. IN fact, GPS navigation now effectively uses the number of wavelengths between satellite and receiver to determine distance rather than ct. So that stuffs up all your dingleberry claims about GPS. As I have been pointing out regularly, wavelength is absolute and so GPS now fully supports BaTh. > Sylvia.
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| From | "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-10 22:16 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ohhk28$6a5$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #636019 |
Den 10.06.2017 21.14, skrev HGW, DSc.: > IN fact, GPS navigation now effectively uses the number of wavelengths > between satellite and receiver to determine distance rather than ct. > So that stuffs up all your dingleberry claims about GPS. > As I have been pointing out regularly, wavelength is absolute and so GPS > now fully supports BaTh. > One of your better, Ralph! :-D You have now discussed GPS for decades, an have still no clue whatsoever of how it works. Your ability to keep your mind uncontaminated by knowledge is really amazing! Well done, Ralph. :-D It would indeed be very interesting to see how Ralph would count "the number of wavelengths between satellite and receiver" without using "ct". But we won't see the explanation of how that "IN fact" is done, will we Ralph? :-D (The distance between two points on the ground can however be precisely measured by measuring the phase difference between the received carrier from one satellite with known position. By using more satellites, the distance and direction of that distance can be determined. The two receivers must communicate (radio) to compare the phases. This is used in surveying, where one receiver must be stationary on a known reference point, and one movable receiver can determine the exact position _relative to that reference point_ to a few mm precision. This is the modern theodolite. This is very different from a common GPS receiver like the one you have in your car.) -- Paul https://paulba.no/
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| From | "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-11 07:19 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <ohhnn2$1k08$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #636026 |
On 11/06/17 06:16, Paul B. Andersen wrote: > Den 10.06.2017 21.14, skrev HGW, DSc.: >> IN fact, GPS navigation now effectively uses the number of wavelengths >> between satellite and receiver to determine distance rather than ct. >> So that stuffs up all your dingleberry claims about GPS. >> As I have been pointing out regularly, wavelength is absolute and so >> GPS now fully supports BaTh. >> > One of your better, Henry! :-D I cannot take credit for it...It wasn't actually my idea.. > You have now discussed GPS for decades, an have still > no clue whatsoever of how it works. Your ability to keep > your mind uncontaminated by knowledge is really amazing! > Well done, Henry. :-D > > It would indeed be very interesting to see how Ralph > would count "the number of wavelengths between satellite > and receiver" without using "ct". > > But we won't see the explanation of how that "IN fact" > is done, will we Henry? :-D No we wont...because as Wiki points out, it is top secret.... ...but the answer is pretty obvious. Each wavelength is actually 'labelled' so that its number can be matched against the label of the wave received at the instant the second one was sent....simple, eh? It gives the number of absolute wavelengths in the signal directly. The receiver's clock error must be corrected out as usual. Acceptance of good old BaTh has improved the GPS accuracy immensely! > (The distance between two points on the ground can > however be precisely measured by measuring the phase > difference between the received carrier from one satellite > with known position. By using more satellites, the distance > and direction of that distance can be determined. The two > receivers must communicate (radio) to compare the phases. > This is used in surveying, where one receiver must be > stationary on a known reference point, and one movable > receiver can determine the exact position _relative to > that reference point_ to a few mm precision. > This is the modern theodolite. > This is very different from a common GPS receiver > like the one you have in your car.) The 'base' idea is another issue...it is a good idea...
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| From | "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-11 22:35 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ohk9j5$698$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #636031 |
Den 10.06.2017 23.19, skrev HGW, DSc.: > On 11/06/17 06:16, Paul B. Andersen wrote: >> Den 10.06.2017 21.14, skrev HGW, DSc.: >>> IN fact, GPS navigation now effectively uses the number of wavelengths >>> between satellite and receiver to determine distance rather than ct. >>> So that stuffs up all your dingleberry claims about GPS. >>> As I have been pointing out regularly, wavelength is absolute and so >>> GPS now fully supports BaTh. >>> >> One of your better, Henry! :-D > > I cannot take credit for it...It wasn't actually my idea.. I think you are too modest, Ralph. :-D > >> You have now discussed GPS for decades, an have still >> no clue whatsoever of how it works. Your ability to keep >> your mind uncontaminated by knowledge is really amazing! >> Well done, Ralph. :-D >> >> It would indeed be very interesting to see how Ralph >> would count "the number of wavelengths between satellite >> and receiver" without using "ct". >> >> But we won't see the explanation of how that "IN fact" >> is done, will we Henry? :-D > > No we wont...because as Wiki points out, it is top secret.... > > ...but the answer is pretty obvious. Each wavelength is actually > 'labelled' so that its number can be matched against the label of the > wave received at the instant the second one was sent....simple, eh? It > gives the number of absolute wavelengths in the signal directly. Quite. Pretty obvious indeed! :-D (Lurkers: No, he is not joking!) -- Paul, still amused after all these years https://paulba.no/
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| From | Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-11 15:44 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ohka3d$1cai$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #636085 |
On 6/11/2017 3:35 PM, Paul B. Andersen wrote: > Den 10.06.2017 23.19, skrev HGW, DSc.: >> On 11/06/17 06:16, Paul B. Andersen wrote: >>> Den 10.06.2017 21.14, skrev HGW, DSc.: >>>> IN fact, GPS navigation now effectively uses the number of wavelengths >>>> between satellite and receiver to determine distance rather than ct. >>>> So that stuffs up all your dingleberry claims about GPS. >>>> As I have been pointing out regularly, wavelength is absolute and so >>>> GPS now fully supports BaTh. >>>> >>> One of your better, Henry! :-D >> >> I cannot take credit for it...It wasn't actually my idea.. > > I think you are too modest, Ralph. :-D >> >>> You have now discussed GPS for decades, an have still >>> no clue whatsoever of how it works. Your ability to keep >>> your mind uncontaminated by knowledge is really amazing! >>> Well done, Ralph. :-D >>> >>> It would indeed be very interesting to see how Ralph >>> would count "the number of wavelengths between satellite >>> and receiver" without using "ct". >>> >>> But we won't see the explanation of how that "IN fact" >>> is done, will we Henry? :-D >> >> No we wont...because as Wiki points out, it is top secret.... >> >> ...but the answer is pretty obvious. Each wavelength is actually >> 'labelled' so that its number can be matched against the label of the >> wave received at the instant the second one was sent....simple, eh? It >> gives the number of absolute wavelengths in the signal directly. > > Quite. Pretty obvious indeed! :-D > > (Lurkers: No, he is not joking!) > colors are also different wavelengths, so GPS wavelengths are color coded ?
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| From | Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-11 18:03 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ohki8q$1oeo$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #636087 |
On 6/11/2017 3:44 PM, Serg io wrote: > On 6/11/2017 3:35 PM, Paul B. Andersen wrote: >> Den 10.06.2017 23.19, skrev HGW, DSc.: >>> On 11/06/17 06:16, Paul B. Andersen wrote: >>>> Den 10.06.2017 21.14, skrev HGW, DSc.: >>>>> IN fact, GPS navigation now effectively uses the number of wavelengths >>>>> between satellite and receiver to determine distance rather than ct. >>>>> So that stuffs up all your dingleberry claims about GPS. >>>>> As I have been pointing out regularly, wavelength is absolute and so >>>>> GPS now fully supports BaTh. >>>>> >>>> One of your better, Henry! :-D >>> >>> I cannot take credit for it...It wasn't actually my idea.. >> >> I think you are too modest, Ralph. :-D >>> >>>> You have now discussed GPS for decades, an have still >>>> no clue whatsoever of how it works. Your ability to keep >>>> your mind uncontaminated by knowledge is really amazing! >>>> Well done, Ralph. :-D >>>> >>>> It would indeed be very interesting to see how Ralph >>>> would count "the number of wavelengths between satellite >>>> and receiver" without using "ct". >>>> >>>> But we won't see the explanation of how that "IN fact" >>>> is done, will we Henry? :-D >>> >>> No we wont...because as Wiki points out, it is top secret.... >>> ...but the answer is pretty obvious. Each wavelength is actually >>> 'labelled' so that its number can be matched against the label of the >>> wave received at the instant the second one was sent....simple, eh? >>> It gives the number of absolute wavelengths in the signal directly. >> >> Quite. Pretty obvious indeed! :-D >> >> (Lurkers: No, he is not joking!) >> > > colors are also different wavelengths, so GPS wavelengths are color coded ? no pupa, GPS signals are "spread spectrum", they are all on the same frequency...
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| From | Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-11 19:00 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ohkljn$1sl7$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #636098 |
On 6/11/2017 6:03 PM, Serg io wrote:
> On 6/11/2017 3:44 PM, Serg io wrote:
>> On 6/11/2017 3:35 PM, Paul B. Andersen wrote:
>>> Den 10.06.2017 23.19, skrev HGW, DSc.:
>>>> On 11/06/17 06:16, Paul B. Andersen wrote:
>>>>> Den 10.06.2017 21.14, skrev HGW, DSc.:
>>>>>> IN fact, GPS navigation now effectively uses the number of
>>>>>> wavelengths
>>>>>> between satellite and receiver to determine distance rather than ct.
>>>>>> So that stuffs up all your dingleberry claims about GPS.
>>>>>> As I have been pointing out regularly, wavelength is absolute and so
>>>>>> GPS now fully supports BaTh.
>>>>>>
>>>>> One of your better, Henry! :-D
>>>>
>>>> I cannot take credit for it...It wasn't actually my idea..
>>>
>>> I think you are too modest, Ralph. :-D
>>>>
>>>>> You have now discussed GPS for decades, an have still
>>>>> no clue whatsoever of how it works. Your ability to keep
>>>>> your mind uncontaminated by knowledge is really amazing!
>>>>> Well done, Ralph. :-D
>>>>>
>>>>> It would indeed be very interesting to see how Ralph
>>>>> would count "the number of wavelengths between satellite
>>>>> and receiver" without using "ct".
>>>>>
>>>>> But we won't see the explanation of how that "IN fact"
>>>>> is done, will we Henry? :-D
>>>>
>>>> No we wont...because as Wiki points out, it is top secret....
>>>> ...but the answer is pretty obvious. Each wavelength is actually
>>>> 'labelled' so that its number can be matched against the label of
>>>> the wave received at the instant the second one was sent....simple,
>>>> eh? It gives the number of absolute wavelengths in the signal directly.
>>>
>>> Quite. Pretty obvious indeed! :-D
>>>
>>> (Lurkers: No, he is not joking!)
>>>
>>
>> colors are also different wavelengths, so GPS wavelengths are color
>> coded ?
>
> no pupa,
>
> GPS signals are "spread spectrum", they are all on the same frequency...
Новини
у Києві
12 червня, понеділок 02:58
Стали відомі результати екзит-полів на виборах у Франції
Пуерто-Рико може стати 51-м штатом США
Трамп злякався протестів і відклав візит до Британії
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| From | "HGW..." <hgw@....> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-12 11:39 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <ohkrcu$32m$3@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #636106 |
On 12/06/17 10:00, Serg io wrote: > On 6/11/2017 6:03 PM, Serg io wrote: >> On 6/11/2017 3:44 PM, Serg io wrote: >> >> no pupa, >> >> GPS signals are "spread spectrum", they are all on the same frequency... > > Новини > у Києві > 12 червня, понеділок 02:58 > > Стали відомі результати екзит-полів на виборах у Франції > Пуерто-Рико може стати 51-м штатом США > Трамп злякався протестів і відклав візит до Британії gagggdjglkg hldjfljs alds sdlpwgw wfwnw xczmnskjdv adcdsv sdv;ss ssf s bbdddb ssssb ght > --
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| From | moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-12 02:33 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ohkuhr$hn0$1@pcls7.std.com> |
| In reply to | #636112 |
"HGW..." <hgw@....> writes: >gagggdjglkg hldjfljs alds sdlpwgw wfwnw xczmnskjdv >adcdsv sdv;ss ssf s bbdddb ssssb ght Ralph! That's the most sensible post you've made all week!!
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| From | "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-12 10:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ohmi13$2v9$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #636112 |
Henry Wilson "HGW..." <hgw@....> wrote: > Serg io "Serg io" <invalid@invalid.com> wrote: On 6/11/2017 6:03 PM, Serg io wrote: >> no pupa, GPS signals are "spread spectrum", >>> they are all on the same frequency... >> On 6/11/2017 3:44 PM, Serg io wrote: >> Новини, у Києві 12 червня, понеділок 02:58 >> Стали відомі результати екзит-полів на виборах у Франції >> Пуерто-Рико може стати 51-м штатом США >> Трамп злякався протестів і відклав візит до Британії > Henry Wilson "HGW..." <hgw@....> wrote > gagggdjglkg hldjfljs alds sdlpwgw wfwnw xczmnskjdv > adcdsv sdv;ss ssf s bbdddb ssssb ght > hanson wrote: Henry, BAth or no BAth, you went ballist too fast, cuz: > The Russian poster "Serg io" <invalid@invalid.com> trains his craft here in s.p. to become a certified Russian agent. Serge is now is an apprentice of the post Soviet KGB now labeled as SFB, their Federal Security Service. (FSB - Federal'naya Sluzhba Bezopasnosti), or its sub, the FAPSI, the Ruskies' equivalent of the USA's NSA,. > So, Henry, Serge's Cyrillic above translates to: "Are the results of exit polling in the elections in France Puerto Rico can become a 51-State United States Trump startled the protests and has postponed a visit to the UK"
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| From | Serg io <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-12 13:40 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ohmn6r$1708$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #636146 |
On 6/12/2017 12:15 PM, hanson wrote: > Henry Wilson "HGW..." <hgw@....> wrote: >> > Serg io "Serg io" <invalid@invalid.com> wrote: > On 6/11/2017 6:03 PM, Serg io wrote: >>> no pupa, GPS signals are "spread spectrum", >>>> they are all on the same frequency... >>> > On 6/11/2017 3:44 PM, Serg io wrote: >>> Новини, у Києві 12 червня, понеділок 02:58 >>> Стали відомі результати екзит-полів на виборах у Франції >>> Пуерто-Рико може стати 51-м штатом США >>> Трамп злякався протестів і відклав візит до Британії >> > Henry Wilson "HGW..." <hgw@....> wrote >> gagggdjglkg hldjfljs alds sdlpwgw wfwnw xczmnskjdv >> adcdsv sdv;ss ssf s bbdddb ssssb ght > hanson wrote: > Henry, BAth or no BAth, you went ballist too fast, cuz: >> > The Russian poster "Serg io" <invalid@invalid.com> > trains his craft here in s.p. to become a certified Russian > agent. Serge is now is an apprentice of the post Soviet KGB > now labeled as SFB, their Federal Security Service. > (FSB - Federal'naya Sluzhba Bezopasnosti), or its sub, > the FAPSI, the Ruskies' equivalent of the USA's NSA,. >> > So, Henry, Serge's Cyrillic above translates to: > "Are the results of exit polling in the elections in France > Puerto Rico can become a 51-State United States > Trump startled the protests and has postponed a visit to the UK" > Шойгу готовит удар возмездия - Серж io
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| From | "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-12 14:19 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ohn0f4$p9m$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #636156 |
"Serg io" <invalid@invalid.com> wrote: > hanson wrote: >> Henry Wilson "HGW..." <hgw@....> wrote: >>> Henry Wilson "HGW..." <hgw@....> wrote: > Serg io "Serg io" <invalid@invalid.com> wrote: On 6/11/2017 6:03 PM, Serg io wrote: >> no pupa, GPS signals are "spread spectrum", >>> they are all on the same frequency... >> On 6/11/2017 3:44 PM, Serg io wrote: >> Новини, у Києві 12 червня, понеділок 02:58 >> Стали відомі результати екзит-полів на виборах у Франції >> Пуерто-Рико може стати 51-м штатом США >> Трамп злякався протестів і відклав візит до Британії > Henry Wilson "HGW..." <hgw@....> wrote > gagggdjglkg hldjfljs alds sdlpwgw wfwnw xczmnskjdv > adcdsv sdv;ss ssf s bbdddb ssssb ght > hanson wrote: Henry, BAth or no BAth, you went ballist too fast, cuz: > The Russian poster "Serg io" <invalid@invalid.com> trains his craft here in s.p. to become a certified Russian agent. Serge is now is an apprentice of the post Soviet KGB now labeled as SFB, their Federal Security Service. (FSB - Federal'naya Sluzhba Bezopasnosti), or its sub, the FAPSI, the Ruskies' equivalent of the USA's NSA,. > So, Henry, Serge's Cyrillic above translates to: "Are the results of exit polling in the elections in France Puerto Rico can become a 51-State United States Trump startled the protests and has postponed a visit to the UK" > The apprentice agent "Serg io" <invalid@invalid.com> threatened: > Шойгу готовит удар возмездия - Серж io (Shoigu is preparing a retaliatory blow - Serge io) > hanson wrote: Yeah, yeah, Sergey Kuzhugetovich Shoigu is always blowing something, ... even you Serg. .... ahahahaha.... To boot, that "...ovich" shows that he is ashkeNazi, like his US brother-in-faith SwineBert Glazier. LOL
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