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A wrenching problem

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  A wrenching problem Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 21:43 -0500
    Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 02:56 +0000
      Re: A wrenching problem xxein1@att.net - 2015-10-31 10:06 -0700
      Re: A wrenching problem benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 13:35 -0400
        Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 18:06 +0000
          Re: A wrenching problem jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-10-31 19:03 +0000
            Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 19:33 +0000
              Re: A wrenching problem jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-10-31 19:50 +0000
            Re: A wrenching problem benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 17:07 -0400
              Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 22:22 +0000
                Re: A wrenching problem benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 23:12 -0400
                  Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-11-01 04:04 +0000
                    Re: A wrenching problem "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 21:29 -0700
                      Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-11-01 06:28 +0000
                    Re: A wrenching problem olli.dp3@gmail.com - 2015-10-31 23:09 -0700
                    Re: A wrenching problem benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-01 10:49 -0500
        Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 18:26 +0000
          Re: A wrenching problem benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 16:56 -0400
            Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 21:25 +0000
            Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 21:33 +0000
              Re: A wrenching problem benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 22:56 -0400
        Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 19:04 +0000
          Re: A wrenching problem benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 17:25 -0400
          Re: A wrenching problem dvus <dven1@adelphia.net> - 2015-11-01 08:29 -0500
            Re: A wrenching problem benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-01 10:21 -0500
              Re: A wrenching problem dvus <dven1@adelphia.net> - 2015-11-01 22:43 -0500
            Re: A wrenching problem R Kym Horsell <kym@kymhorsell.com> - 2015-11-01 18:48 +0000
        Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 20:13 +0000

Page 2 of 2 — ← Prev page 1 [2]

#529608

On 10/31/2015 05:33 PM, Fabian Russell wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:56:45 -0400, benj wrote:
>
>>
>> As an insurance salesman once told me (He thought we should start a
>> business together): "You've got the intelligence, but I've got the 'savvy'"!
>>
>
> Hmm.  I wonder what the articles of incorporation would have stated?
>
> A 50:50 even split?  Nah.  It should be 60:40.  Or even 70:30.
>
> But which side gets which?  Ha, ha, ha, ha!
>
An insurance salesman and you have to ask? :)

-- 

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#529467

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 13:35:39 -0400, benj wrote:

> 
> Those particular ratcheting wrenches are stamped cheapo crap with very 
> large ends that won't fit tight spaces (the spaces around nuts and bolts 
> are always tight due to Murphy's Law). There are better ones.
> 

Better?  Well, let's just say that there are a variety of wrenches
available to suit a variety of access situations.  The average mechanic,
therefore, must invest a fortune in different tool sets to cover all,
or most, possibilities -- if he can afford it.

Furthermore, Murphy's law is not the culprit.  The reason for most
difficult access situations is POOR DESIGN.  Most goods are not made
to be repaired.  They are made to be discarded after a certain time
period  and thus no thought whatsoever is usually given to providing
a convenient access.

I had to replace the oil pan on my vehicle.  The whole fscking engine
had to be removed, at great expense, to obtain access to a $50 part.
The same for spark plugs.  The same for fuel pumps.  Etc., etc.
To change out a simple starter on my vehicle, I once had to piece together
a chain of several socket extensions, including TWO universal joints,
totaling about three feet in length so as to thread through a labyrinth
of obstructions in order to reach the two bolts that held the goddamned
thing.  When I walked into the auto parts emporium to get a replacement
the clerk began to heartily laugh: "I'll bet you had a time gettin' this
off!"

Once, after measuring a low voltage output, I realized that I needed
to replace the alternator on my auto.  A look around revealed the faulty
original sitting beautifully in an unobstructed location.  I was overjoyed.
After quickly removing two bolts I began to pull but the thing wouldn't
budge. Looking more closely I discovered a third bolt completely buried
in a deep ravine of steel forgings and casts.  It required many hours of
frustration to finally free the part.

A military fighter jet is designed for continuous maintenance and
the design engineers give great attention to including convenient
access as part of the overall design.  But the same is not true for
the flood of other goods on the consumer and professional market.    

Good design costs $$$ and will not make it in the competitive world
of trash goods that we know and enjoy.  As a consequence, the repairman
always has the frustrating job of playing nimble contortionist

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#529529

On 10/31/2015 03:04 PM, Fabian Russell wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 13:35:39 -0400, benj wrote:
>
>>
>> Those particular ratcheting wrenches are stamped cheapo crap with very
>> large ends that won't fit tight spaces (the spaces around nuts and bolts
>> are always tight due to Murphy's Law). There are better ones.
>>
>
> Better?  Well, let's just say that there are a variety of wrenches
> available to suit a variety of access situations.  The average mechanic,
> therefore, must invest a fortune in different tool sets to cover all,
> or most, possibilities -- if he can afford it.
>
> Furthermore, Murphy's law is not the culprit.  The reason for most
> difficult access situations is POOR DESIGN.  Most goods are not made
> to be repaired.  They are made to be discarded after a certain time
> period  and thus no thought whatsoever is usually given to providing
> a convenient access.
>
> I had to replace the oil pan on my vehicle.  The whole fscking engine
> had to be removed, at great expense, to obtain access to a $50 part.
> The same for spark plugs.  The same for fuel pumps.  Etc., etc.
> To change out a simple starter on my vehicle, I once had to piece together
> a chain of several socket extensions, including TWO universal joints,
> totaling about three feet in length so as to thread through a labyrinth
> of obstructions in order to reach the two bolts that held the goddamned
> thing.  When I walked into the auto parts emporium to get a replacement
> the clerk began to heartily laugh: "I'll bet you had a time gettin' this
> off!"
>
> Once, after measuring a low voltage output, I realized that I needed
> to replace the alternator on my auto.  A look around revealed the faulty
> original sitting beautifully in an unobstructed location.  I was overjoyed.
> After quickly removing two bolts I began to pull but the thing wouldn't
> budge. Looking more closely I discovered a third bolt completely buried
> in a deep ravine of steel forgings and casts.  It required many hours of
> frustration to finally free the part.
>
> A military fighter jet is designed for continuous maintenance and
> the design engineers give great attention to including convenient
> access as part of the overall design.  But the same is not true for
> the flood of other goods on the consumer and professional market.
>
> Good design costs $$$ and will not make it in the competitive world
> of trash goods that we know and enjoy.  As a consequence, the repairman
> always has the frustrating job of playing nimble contortionist

Must have been a British auto! My E-Type Jag was like that! You'd look 
in the manual to change the oil filter and it would say: Remove front 
suspension and wheels, remove engine, change filter, reverse the 
procedure! Well I exaggerate but only slightly! The ACTUAL instructions 
for changing the fuel pump was: Disconnect drive shaft, Drop rear 
suspension and differential out of vehicle, drop the fuel tank, replace 
the pump!

Hey this is AMERICA and we Yanks don't need any of that Brit stiff upper 
lip crap! I just got out the Sawsall made three cuts around the position 
of the fuel pump in the bottom of the trunk and bent up the flap! 
Bingo! Pump right there! Put in new pump, bent the flap back down and 
applied several layers of duct tape to keep water out the trunk. Hee Haw!

I was complaining to a Brit at work (who used to run a Jag dealership in 
the old country) that Brit cars all seemed to be designed by a 
committee! Then they build it and bring in 5 or 6 top mechanics and tell 
them things like change the oil filter or remove the oil pan.  I said, 
and then if they succeed they leave it that way! Oh no, he said, If just 
ONE of them succeeds they leave it that way!  :-)

-- 

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    /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:|:|  |     ___ /::\__\
   /::\~\:\__\   /::\~\:\  \   /:/|:|  |__  /\  /:/\/__/
  /:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/  /
  \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
   \:\ \::/  /   \:\ \:\__\       |:/:/  /    \/__/
    \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
     \::/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
      ~~            \/__/         \/__/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#529674

On 10/31/2015 3:04 PM, Fabian Russell wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 13:35:39 -0400, benj wrote:
>
>>
>> Those particular ratcheting wrenches are stamped cheapo crap with very
>> large ends that won't fit tight spaces (the spaces around nuts and bolts
>> are always tight due to Murphy's Law). There are better ones.
>>
>
> Better?  Well, let's just say that there are a variety of wrenches
> available to suit a variety of access situations.  The average mechanic,
> therefore, must invest a fortune in different tool sets to cover all,
> or most, possibilities -- if he can afford it.
>
> Furthermore, Murphy's law is not the culprit.  The reason for most
> difficult access situations is POOR DESIGN.  Most goods are not made
> to be repaired.  They are made to be discarded after a certain time
> period  and thus no thought whatsoever is usually given to providing
> a convenient access.
>
> I had to replace the oil pan on my vehicle.  The whole fscking engine
> had to be removed, at great expense, to obtain access to a $50 part.
> The same for spark plugs.  The same for fuel pumps.  Etc., etc.
> To change out a simple starter on my vehicle, I once had to piece together
> a chain of several socket extensions, including TWO universal joints,
> totaling about three feet in length so as to thread through a labyrinth
> of obstructions in order to reach the two bolts that held the goddamned
> thing.  When I walked into the auto parts emporium to get a replacement
> the clerk began to heartily laugh: "I'll bet you had a time gettin' this
> off!"

I once worked on a Caddy that required lifting the engine several inches 
off its mounts to change the damn spark plugs. If that isn't the 
pinnacle of poor design I don't know what is.

> Once, after measuring a low voltage output, I realized that I needed
> to replace the alternator on my auto.  A look around revealed the faulty
> original sitting beautifully in an unobstructed location.  I was overjoyed.
> After quickly removing two bolts I began to pull but the thing wouldn't
> budge. Looking more closely I discovered a third bolt completely buried
> in a deep ravine of steel forgings and casts.  It required many hours of
> frustration to finally free the part.

Been there, many times.

> A military fighter jet is designed for continuous maintenance and
> the design engineers give great attention to including convenient
> access as part of the overall design.  But the same is not true for
> the flood of other goods on the consumer and professional market.
>
> Good design costs $$$ and will not make it in the competitive world
> of trash goods that we know and enjoy.  As a consequence, the repairman
> always has the frustrating job of playing nimble contortionist

Very true, but a car designed for easy repair would cost so much very 
few would buy it. Who's at fault, the designers or the consumer?

-- 
dvus

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#529698

On 11/01/2015 08:29 AM, dvus wrote:
> On 10/31/2015 3:04 PM, Fabian Russell wrote:
>> On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 13:35:39 -0400, benj wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Those particular ratcheting wrenches are stamped cheapo crap with very
>>> large ends that won't fit tight spaces (the spaces around nuts and bolts
>>> are always tight due to Murphy's Law). There are better ones.
>>>
>>
>> Better?  Well, let's just say that there are a variety of wrenches
>> available to suit a variety of access situations.  The average mechanic,
>> therefore, must invest a fortune in different tool sets to cover all,
>> or most, possibilities -- if he can afford it.
>>
>> Furthermore, Murphy's law is not the culprit.  The reason for most
>> difficult access situations is POOR DESIGN.  Most goods are not made
>> to be repaired.  They are made to be discarded after a certain time
>> period  and thus no thought whatsoever is usually given to providing
>> a convenient access.
>>
>> I had to replace the oil pan on my vehicle.  The whole fscking engine
>> had to be removed, at great expense, to obtain access to a $50 part.
>> The same for spark plugs.  The same for fuel pumps.  Etc., etc.
>> To change out a simple starter on my vehicle, I once had to piece
>> together
>> a chain of several socket extensions, including TWO universal joints,
>> totaling about three feet in length so as to thread through a labyrinth
>> of obstructions in order to reach the two bolts that held the goddamned
>> thing.  When I walked into the auto parts emporium to get a replacement
>> the clerk began to heartily laugh: "I'll bet you had a time gettin' this
>> off!"
>
> I once worked on a Caddy that required lifting the engine several inches
> off its mounts to change the damn spark plugs. If that isn't the
> pinnacle of poor design I don't know what is.
>
>> Once, after measuring a low voltage output, I realized that I needed
>> to replace the alternator on my auto.  A look around revealed the faulty
>> original sitting beautifully in an unobstructed location.  I was
>> overjoyed.
>> After quickly removing two bolts I began to pull but the thing wouldn't
>> budge. Looking more closely I discovered a third bolt completely buried
>> in a deep ravine of steel forgings and casts.  It required many hours of
>> frustration to finally free the part.
>
> Been there, many times.
>
>> A military fighter jet is designed for continuous maintenance and
>> the design engineers give great attention to including convenient
>> access as part of the overall design.  But the same is not true for
>> the flood of other goods on the consumer and professional market.
>>
>> Good design costs $$$ and will not make it in the competitive world
>> of trash goods that we know and enjoy.  As a consequence, the repairman
>> always has the frustrating job of playing nimble contortionist
>
> Very true, but a car designed for easy repair would cost so much very
> few would buy it. Who's at fault, the designers or the consumer?

Everyone says this and I don't buy it! What an easy repair car would 
require is some THINKING on the part of the designers and producers. 
That is the problem.

It's the SAME problem you see in computer programs. Programmers simply 
following the unthinking route of least resistance rather than first 
asking just HOW is someone going to actually USE this program. All 
manner of hilarity then ensues.



-- 

       ___           ___           ___            ___
      /\  \         /\  \         /\__\          /\  \
     /::\  \       /::\  \       /::|  |         \:\  \
    /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:|:|  |     ___ /::\__\
   /::\~\:\__\   /::\~\:\  \   /:/|:|  |__  /\  /:/\/__/
  /:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/  /
  \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
   \:\ \::/  /   \:\ \:\__\       |:/:/  /    \/__/
    \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
     \::/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
      ~~            \/__/         \/__/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#529849

On 11/1/2015 10:21 AM, benj wrote:
> On 11/01/2015 08:29 AM, dvus wrote:
>> On 10/31/2015 3:04 PM, Fabian Russell wrote:
>>> On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 13:35:39 -0400, benj wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Those particular ratcheting wrenches are stamped cheapo crap with very
>>>> large ends that won't fit tight spaces (the spaces around nuts and
>>>> bolts
>>>> are always tight due to Murphy's Law). There are better ones.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Better?  Well, let's just say that there are a variety of wrenches
>>> available to suit a variety of access situations.  The average mechanic,
>>> therefore, must invest a fortune in different tool sets to cover all,
>>> or most, possibilities -- if he can afford it.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, Murphy's law is not the culprit.  The reason for most
>>> difficult access situations is POOR DESIGN.  Most goods are not made
>>> to be repaired.  They are made to be discarded after a certain time
>>> period  and thus no thought whatsoever is usually given to providing
>>> a convenient access.
>>>
>>> I had to replace the oil pan on my vehicle.  The whole fscking engine
>>> had to be removed, at great expense, to obtain access to a $50 part.
>>> The same for spark plugs.  The same for fuel pumps.  Etc., etc.
>>> To change out a simple starter on my vehicle, I once had to piece
>>> together
>>> a chain of several socket extensions, including TWO universal joints,
>>> totaling about three feet in length so as to thread through a labyrinth
>>> of obstructions in order to reach the two bolts that held the goddamned
>>> thing.  When I walked into the auto parts emporium to get a replacement
>>> the clerk began to heartily laugh: "I'll bet you had a time gettin' this
>>> off!"
>>
>> I once worked on a Caddy that required lifting the engine several inches
>> off its mounts to change the damn spark plugs. If that isn't the
>> pinnacle of poor design I don't know what is.
>>
>>> Once, after measuring a low voltage output, I realized that I needed
>>> to replace the alternator on my auto.  A look around revealed the faulty
>>> original sitting beautifully in an unobstructed location.  I was
>>> overjoyed.
>>> After quickly removing two bolts I began to pull but the thing wouldn't
>>> budge. Looking more closely I discovered a third bolt completely buried
>>> in a deep ravine of steel forgings and casts.  It required many hours of
>>> frustration to finally free the part.
>>
>> Been there, many times.
>>
>>> A military fighter jet is designed for continuous maintenance and
>>> the design engineers give great attention to including convenient
>>> access as part of the overall design.  But the same is not true for
>>> the flood of other goods on the consumer and professional market.
>>>
>>> Good design costs $$$ and will not make it in the competitive world
>>> of trash goods that we know and enjoy.  As a consequence, the repairman
>>> always has the frustrating job of playing nimble contortionist
>>
>> Very true, but a car designed for easy repair would cost so much very
>> few would buy it. Who's at fault, the designers or the consumer?
>
> Everyone says this and I don't buy it! What an easy repair car would
> require is some THINKING on the part of the designers and producers.
> That is the problem.

All that thinking costs money. I'd love it if all mechanical devices 
were designed to be easy to repair but manufacturers just don't care to 
spend the money to make it so. There are certain repairs (on cars 
especially) that are nigh unto impossible with a standard set of tools, 
which just goes to show designers aren't interested in making things 
easier to repair.

> It's the SAME problem you see in computer programs. Programmers simply
> following the unthinking route of least resistance rather than first
> asking just HOW is someone going to actually USE this program. All
> manner of hilarity then ensues.

I suppose that depends on the type of program. I designed software to 
run elevators and I can assure you that how the equipment was going to 
be used was always taken into account given the liability that could 
arise from not doing so. I'm sure no lives were in jeopardy if a word 
processor were written sloppily so I suppose you're right in many instances.

-- 
dvus

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#529730

dvus <dven1@adelphia.net> wrote:
> On 10/31/2015 3:04 PM, Fabian Russell wrote:
>> On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 13:35:39 -0400, benj wrote:
>>> Those particular ratcheting wrenches are stamped cheapo crap with very
>>> large ends that won't fit tight spaces (the spaces around nuts and bolts
>>> are always tight due to Murphy's Law). There are better ones.
>> Better?  Well, let's just say that there are a variety of wrenches
>> available to suit a variety of access situations.  The average mechanic,
>> therefore, must invest a fortune in different tool sets to cover all,
>> or most, possibilities -- if he can afford it.
>> Furthermore, Murphy's law is not the culprit.  The reason for most
>> difficult access situations is POOR DESIGN.  Most goods are not made
>> to be repaired.  They are made to be discarded after a certain time
>> period  and thus no thought whatsoever is usually given to providing
>> a convenient access.
>> I had to replace the oil pan on my vehicle.  The whole fscking engine
>> had to be removed, at great expense, to obtain access to a $50 part.
>> The same for spark plugs.  The same for fuel pumps.  Etc., etc.
>> To change out a simple starter on my vehicle, I once had to piece together
>> a chain of several socket extensions, including TWO universal joints,
>> totaling about three feet in length so as to thread through a labyrinth
>> of obstructions in order to reach the two bolts that held the goddamned
>> thing.  When I walked into the auto parts emporium to get a replacement
>> the clerk began to heartily laugh: "I'll bet you had a time gettin' this
>> off!"
> I once worked on a Caddy that required lifting the engine several inches 
> off its mounts to change the damn spark plugs. If that isn't the 
> pinnacle of poor design I don't know what is.

Many years ago I had a Morris mini. It had a 2" piece of hose
connecting the radiator to the engine. To replace it you had
to pull out the engine.
And that was a *good* piece of British design.

>> Once, after measuring a low voltage output, I realized that I needed
>> to replace the alternator on my auto.  A look around revealed the faulty
>> original sitting beautifully in an unobstructed location.  I was overjoyed.
>> After quickly removing two bolts I began to pull but the thing wouldn't
>> budge. Looking more closely I discovered a third bolt completely buried
>> in a deep ravine of steel forgings and casts.  It required many hours of
>> frustration to finally free the part.
> Been there, many times.
>> A military fighter jet is designed for continuous maintenance and
>> the design engineers give great attention to including convenient
>> access as part of the overall design.  But the same is not true for
>> the flood of other goods on the consumer and professional market.
>> Good design costs $$$ and will not make it in the competitive world
>> of trash goods that we know and enjoy.  As a consequence, the repairman
>> always has the frustrating job of playing nimble contortionist
> Very true, but a car designed for easy repair would cost so much very 
> few would buy it. Who's at fault, the designers or the consumer?

-- 
[Something about "warm bath in sanctimony"]
Pop over to Tim Blair's for a look.
  -- BONZO@27-32-240-172 [daily nymshifter], 14 Feb 2011 14:39 +1100

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#529501

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 13:35:39 -0400, benj wrote:

> 
> I love ivory 
> tower types who have it all figured out and nothing they say really works.
> 

After countless man-hours of sweaty, hard-core experience in the affairs
of the real world, benj has settled on his favorite wrench, et. al.:

http://s7.postimg.org/ks30r5s1n/sak.jpg

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