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Groups > sci.physics > #567701 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-04-03 12:52 -0400 |
| Last post | 2016-04-12 23:56 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 450 — 19 participants |
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-03 12:52 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-03 17:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-04 15:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-04 18:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Double-A <double-a3@hush.com> - 2016-04-04 12:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 12:58 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jack Ryan <mixmaster@remailer.cpunk.us> - 2016-04-05 03:50 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-05 18:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 16:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-05 18:47 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 00:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-04-07 06:10 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 18:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-08 14:23 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 09:57 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 10:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 12:53 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 19:38 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 00:27 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 00:28 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-05 22:14 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 03:38 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 00:27 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:58 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 00:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-04-07 06:24 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:03 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 19:53 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 03:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 23:06 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-07 19:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 13:04 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-07 21:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 00:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 17:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 21:47 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-09 13:55 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 10:08 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 15:19 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 22:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 04:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 01:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 12:53 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 12:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 14:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 08:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 16:40 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 15:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-11 19:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 20:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:04 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 22:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 21:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 05:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 00:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 13:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 21:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 02:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 21:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 13:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 15:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 04:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 22:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:04 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:21 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 22:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 01:33 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 20:44 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-17 05:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 23:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 12:54 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 21:25 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 00:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 01:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:15 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 08:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:28 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 10:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 18:03 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 10:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 17:47 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 00:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-17 17:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 23:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:10 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:40 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:11 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-09 00:01 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Womack <twomack@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-04-09 09:21 +0100
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 15:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 09:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 14:22 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 10:45 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 19:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:41 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-06 17:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 12:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:28 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 23:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 10:09 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:31 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:42 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:07 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-07 15:55 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 14:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:19 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:47 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-09 18:17 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 00:37 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-10 16:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-11 16:41 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-12 15:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:08 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 23:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:43 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 01:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:19 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 02:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:38 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 10:29 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 18:00 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 10:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 18:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-05 17:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-05 18:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 15:09 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-05 18:54 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 19:57 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-06 17:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 15:43 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 20:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 16:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 23:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 19:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 03:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 22:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 06:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 12:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 00:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:45 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:12 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:08 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:08 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 04:43 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 22:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 17:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 04:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 23:31 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 01:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:18 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 22:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:19 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:57 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:44 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:09 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 20:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 23:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 04:42 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-07 16:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:43 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 01:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:19 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 23:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 05:49 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:10 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 21:03 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:27 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:27 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-07 21:40 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 15:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 19:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 21:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 17:37 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 08:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:53 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:31 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 18:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 03:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 21:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:01 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 13:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:53 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 01:47 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 20:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 04:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 22:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:43 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 04:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-10 17:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 17:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 05:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 01:43 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-11 16:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Rick Jones <rick.jones2@hpe.com> - 2016-04-11 18:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-12 15:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:09 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:45 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-13 15:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 09:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:15 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:47 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:25 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 02:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 21:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:46 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 02:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:57 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 20:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-17 05:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 23:58 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-14 16:46 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:31 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:27 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 02:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 21:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:17 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:38 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 16:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 02:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 10:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 18:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 00:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-17 17:35 +0000
Name calling is allowed/expected. Jeff-Relf.Me <@.> - 2016-04-16 12:00 -0700
Re: Name calling is allowed/expected. benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-04-16 15:14 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:12 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:15 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 17:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:10 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:18 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 18:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 13:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:21 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 23:56 -0700
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| From | Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 17:50 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ne8r1e$7gv$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de> |
| In reply to | #568831 |
Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb: > Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote: > >>Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb: [Making an NBR O-ring] >>> Or instead of cracking down complex hydrocarbons you don't have, you >>> build up what you need out of the pieces. Please read up on in situ >>> resource utilization. >> >>What in situ resources could I use on the Moon (or Mars) to make an >>O-ring capable of withstanding oil? >> > Chemistry is chemistry. I agree with you there. > Please go follow the link on in situ organic chemicals I gave the Chimp. I'm not sure what link you refer to. Can you give a quick outline how to do all the chemicals I mentioned in my article? We don't have to do this the exact way we do it on Earth. However, the complexidy will not be less with a different raw material base.
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 13:03 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ee3ggbp12f1btaph1eqi5vdt0icfdtd7bp@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #569000 |
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>
>>>Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>
>[Making an NBR O-ring]
>
>>>> Or instead of cracking down complex hydrocarbons you don't have, you
>>>> build up what you need out of the pieces. Please read up on in situ
>>>> resource utilization.
>>>
>>>What in situ resources could I use on the Moon (or Mars) to make an
>>>O-ring capable of withstanding oil?
>>>
>
>> Chemistry is chemistry.
>
>I agree with you there.
>
>> Please go follow the link on in situ organic chemicals I gave the Chimp.
>
>I'm not sure what link you refer to.
>
http://chapters.marssociety.org/winnipeg/plastics.html
>
>Can you give a quick outline how to do all the chemicals I mentioned
>in my article?
>
>We don't have to do this the exact way we do it on Earth. However,
>the complexidy will not be less with a different raw material base.
>
This will be more complicated and more 'expensive' than on Earth,
since you don't have the complex hydrocarbon feedstock on Mars. But,
as the link points out, "You can make every plastic available on Earth
from resources on Mars. Most plastics are hydrocarbon polymers, made
from water and air using electricity. Other plastics require chlorine
from salt, or nitrogen from air. Fluoropolymers are extremely strong,
durable, endure temperatures much colder than the coldest day at the
south pole of Mars in winter, immune to any form of acid or alkali
you'll find in the soil, highly resistant to strong UV, and light.
Common fluoropolymers are Teflon and Goretex, but they all require
fluorine. Unfortunately we haven't found fluorine on Mars yet. We can
look at other plastics until we find it."
--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw
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| From | Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 21:47 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ne98sv$hhg$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de> |
| In reply to | #569064 |
Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb: > This will be more complicated and more 'expensive' than on Earth, > since you don't have the complex hydrocarbon feedstock on Mars. But, > as the link points out, "You can make every plastic available on Earth > from resources on Mars. Sure. The main question is how much complexity this entails, and how many people and what sort of technological organization this needs for a colony to work. Suppose that the US could (at least in principle) be self-sufficient in chemical goods. Look at http://selectusa.commerce.gov/industry-snapshots/chemical-industry-united-states The industry’s more than 10,000 firms produce more than 70,000 products. In 2012, the U.S. chemicals industry had sales of $769.4 billion and directly employed more than 784,000 workers, with additional indirect employment by industry suppliers of more than 2.7 million. Here are some employment figures from http://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iag325.htm : Chemical equipment operators and tenders 54,020 Chemical technicians 20,350 Chemists 27,350 Mixing and blending machine setters, operators, and tenders 55,330 Packaging and filling machine operators and tenders 49,710 So, divide this by a factor of 10 or 50 for making fewer products and for having no competition. This would still mean that several thousand of people would be needed. So, a few thousand people would be required at least for this. Pharmaceutical industry in the US employs a few more people than chemical industy (which, of course, they heavily rely on). And so on...
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 21:24 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7r0hgb9atljgmlmnbv9puperdn14g5targ@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #569088 |
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>
>> This will be more complicated and more 'expensive' than on Earth,
>> since you don't have the complex hydrocarbon feedstock on Mars. But,
>> as the link points out, "You can make every plastic available on Earth
>> from resources on Mars.
>
>Sure.
>
>The main question is how much complexity this entails, and how
>many people and what sort of technological organization this needs
>for a colony to work.
>
<snip irrelevancies>
So what you've shown is that it's exactly what I claim; incremental
growth as you go. You're not independent on Day 1. You get that way
as you grow and add capability. If it's cheaper to ship, you ship. If
it's cheaper to make, you make. Industry makes these decisions all
the time here on Earth. Why would Mars be different?
--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 13:55 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <neb1kr$jok$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de> |
| In reply to | #569133 |
Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb: > Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote: > >>Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb: >> >>> This will be more complicated and more 'expensive' than on Earth, >>> since you don't have the complex hydrocarbon feedstock on Mars. But, >>> as the link points out, "You can make every plastic available on Earth >>> from resources on Mars. >> >>Sure. >> >>The main question is how much complexity this entails, and how >>many people and what sort of technological organization this needs >>for a colony to work. >> > ><snip irrelevancies> Not quite irrelevant, it shows that you need thousands of people working in the proposed Mars chemical industry alone to be able to make simple parts we take for granted here. > So what you've shown is that it's exactly what I claim; incremental > growth as you go. You're not independent on Day 1. You get that way > as you grow and add capability. If it's cheaper to ship, you ship. If > it's cheaper to make, you make. Industry makes these decisions all > the time here on Earth. Why would Mars be different? I would tend to concur in principle. In practice, the size of population you need to be even approach self-sustainability is quite large. The example above is for the chemical industry only. Multiply this by a none-too-small factor for other relevant industries (metals, electrical, computers etc). Other people will have to grow food, repair habitats, build machine tools, make drugs, mine resources, make (pharmaceutical) drugs, be doctors, teachers, nurses, hairdressers, make implements for daily life, ... You'll need a at least few hundred thousand people to get a mostly self-sufficient colony going, and you will need to supply them while the aren't yet self-sufficient.
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| From | Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 10:08 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <neb5v9$f5e$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #569213 |
On 4/9/2016 8:55 AM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>>>
>>>> This will be more complicated and more 'expensive' than on Earth,
>>>> since you don't have the complex hydrocarbon feedstock on Mars. But,
>>>> as the link points out, "You can make every plastic available on Earth
>>>> from resources on Mars.
>>>
>>> Sure.
>>>
>>> The main question is how much complexity this entails, and how
>>> many people and what sort of technological organization this needs
>>> for a colony to work.
>>>
>>
>> <snip irrelevancies>
>
> Not quite irrelevant, it shows that you need thousands of people
> working in the proposed Mars chemical industry alone to be able
> to make simple parts we take for granted here.
>
>> So what you've shown is that it's exactly what I claim; incremental
>> growth as you go. You're not independent on Day 1. You get that way
>> as you grow and add capability. If it's cheaper to ship, you ship. If
>> it's cheaper to make, you make. Industry makes these decisions all
>> the time here on Earth. Why would Mars be different?
>
> I would tend to concur in principle. In practice, the size of
> population you need to be even approach self-sustainability is
> quite large.
>
> The example above is for the chemical industry only. Multiply this
> by a none-too-small factor for other relevant industries (metals,
> electrical, computers etc). Other people will have to grow food,
> repair habitats, build machine tools, make drugs, mine resources,
> make (pharmaceutical) drugs, be doctors, teachers, nurses,
> hairdressers, make implements for daily life, ...
>
> You'll need a at least few hundred thousand people to get a mostly
> self-sufficient colony going, and you will need to supply them
> while the aren't yet self-sufficient.
>
Air, Water ??
try to think it through.
man needs 500 liters of O2 per day
there are 10 men up there, 2 are needed to run the O2 plant, and 2
are needed to run the Water plant, and 2 are needed to run the N2 plant.
so your O2 flow rate is 5,000 liters per day,
your N2 flow rate is 15,000 liters per day (assume a 25% O2)
and about 7.5 liters of water per day per person
so how many tons rocks do you cook per day ?
How much energy is needed to run the rock cooking plant?
What type of rocks work for O2 that are on the surface ?
where do you get 24 liters of water per day ? (assume a 25% recapture rate)
Biofilm questions: where does the lost water go? will the biofilm cause
dammage to the electronics? How much energy is used to keep the
Humidity down to below 70% ?
how do you reprocess the salt bath used for cooking the rocks ?
What rocks do you cook to get N2 ???
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 08:51 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <8p6igbp9l689a90nn5j9aokipoauuskk65@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #569213 |
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>
>>>Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>>>
>>>> This will be more complicated and more 'expensive' than on Earth,
>>>> since you don't have the complex hydrocarbon feedstock on Mars. But,
>>>> as the link points out, "You can make every plastic available on Earth
>>>> from resources on Mars.
>>>
>>>Sure.
>>>
>>>The main question is how much complexity this entails, and how
>>>many people and what sort of technological organization this needs
>>>for a colony to work.
>>>
>>
>><snip irrelevancies>
>
>Not quite irrelevant, it shows that you need thousands of people
>working in the proposed Mars chemical industry alone to be able
>to make simple parts we take for granted here.
>
Or you'd have more automated equipment because people are more
expensive. Or you teleoperate. But yes, TOTAL self-sufficiency
(which we don't have in the United States, by the way) takes more than
a dozen people. Incremental steps...
>> So what you've shown is that it's exactly what I claim; incremental
>> growth as you go. You're not independent on Day 1. You get that way
>> as you grow and add capability. If it's cheaper to ship, you ship. If
>> it's cheaper to make, you make. Industry makes these decisions all
>> the time here on Earth. Why would Mars be different?
>
>I would tend to concur in principle. In practice, the size of
>population you need to be even approach self-sustainability is
>quite large.
>
>The example above is for the chemical industry only. Multiply this
>by a none-too-small factor for other relevant industries (metals,
>electrical, computers etc). Other people will have to grow food,
>repair habitats, build machine tools, make drugs, mine resources,
>make (pharmaceutical) drugs, be doctors, teachers, nurses,
>hairdressers, make implements for daily life, ...
>
>You'll need a at least few hundred thousand people to get a mostly
>self-sufficient colony going, and you will need to supply them
>while the aren't yet self-sufficient.
>
How did you arrive at that number of people? How much did you assume
was automated and/or being produced by something like a 3D printer?
None of this is magical technology. We use more people-intensive
processes here because people are cheaper. As people become more
expensive, they tend to be replaced by capital (machinery). Jimp
thinks you need billions of people (300,000 (Pittsburgh) isn't enough)
and the entire output of planet Earth. You've settled at around 2/3
the size of Pittsburgh. I don't claim to know the number, but would
put it up in at least the thousands. Elon Musk doesn't set a number
where it's magically a 'colony' but projects that Mars population hits
1 million sometime around 2070 (it'll probably be later than that by a
decade or two). Like any sane approach, he starts with mere handfuls
of people and incrementally grows (unlike the Jimp the Chimp approach
that requires instantaneous millions).
And just how 'self sufficient' does a colony have to be in order to be
a 'colony'? Remember, we used to ship shirts to China to have them
laundered and still ship scrap (plastic and steel) there to get it
recycled and shipped back to us. Jimp the Chimp insists that it's not
a colony unless it is totally self-sufficient at a quality of life
similar to a rich suburb in Connecticut with a population of billions.
I think the bar is much lower both in quality of life and numbers; a
relatively small population (hundreds) that can manage survival
through an extended interruption in resupply is a 'colony' for me. My
definition is closer to the classical Earthbound definition, where
colonies failed due to interruptions in supplies from back home.
--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 18:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <c0tntc-2gf.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #569231 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > And just how 'self sufficient' does a colony have to be in order to be > a 'colony'? Remember, we used to ship shirts to China to have them > laundered and still ship scrap (plastic and steel) there to get it > recycled and shipped back to us. Jimp the Chimp insists that it's not > a colony unless it is totally self-sufficient at a quality of life > similar to a rich suburb in Connecticut with a population of billions. > I think the bar is much lower both in quality of life and numbers; a > relatively small population (hundreds) that can manage survival > through an extended interruption in resupply is a 'colony' for me. My > definition is closer to the classical Earthbound definition, where > colonies failed due to interruptions in supplies from back home. There go those voices in your head again, space cadet. A colony is not a true colony unless it has families with kids that voluntarily joined the colony and intend to spend their lives there. A colony is not self sufficient until the members can survive without resupply. Survival in the New World meant you had to build shelter, find water, and plant crops. The things that usually caused failure in the New World were lack of proper attention to the above, disease, attacks by indigenous people, who by the way were not resupplied by Europe, and attacks from other European nation states. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 12:49 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <44nigb5er9o47aeijas42bi6n1qpg5cmr6@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #569243 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> And just how 'self sufficient' does a colony have to be in order to be
>> a 'colony'? Remember, we used to ship shirts to China to have them
>> laundered and still ship scrap (plastic and steel) there to get it
>> recycled and shipped back to us. Jimp the Chimp insists that it's not
>> a colony unless it is totally self-sufficient at a quality of life
>> similar to a rich suburb in Connecticut with a population of billions.
>> I think the bar is much lower both in quality of life and numbers; a
>> relatively small population (hundreds) that can manage survival
>> through an extended interruption in resupply is a 'colony' for me. My
>> definition is closer to the classical Earthbound definition, where
>> colonies failed due to interruptions in supplies from back home.
>
>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet.
>
Yeah, but the problem is one of those voices is you saying all sorts
of stupid shite.
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 20:16 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <kh4otc-q7g.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #569267 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> And just how 'self sufficient' does a colony have to be in order to be >>> a 'colony'? Remember, we used to ship shirts to China to have them >>> laundered and still ship scrap (plastic and steel) there to get it >>> recycled and shipped back to us. Jimp the Chimp insists that it's not >>> a colony unless it is totally self-sufficient at a quality of life >>> similar to a rich suburb in Connecticut with a population of billions. >>> I think the bar is much lower both in quality of life and numbers; a >>> relatively small population (hundreds) that can manage survival >>> through an extended interruption in resupply is a 'colony' for me. My >>> definition is closer to the classical Earthbound definition, where >>> colonies failed due to interruptions in supplies from back home. >> >>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet. >> > > Yeah, but the problem is one of those voices is you saying all sorts > of stupid shite. You mean stupid things like you can breath on Earth but not on Mars and that mothers put diapers on babbies long before Pampers were invented? You really bought in hard on that Rocket to the Moon ride at Disneyland, didn't you? -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 19:07 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <evcjgbdid9600hoqu0faea6vrn51704lnn@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #569284 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And just how 'self sufficient' does a colony have to be in order to be
>>>> a 'colony'? Remember, we used to ship shirts to China to have them
>>>> laundered and still ship scrap (plastic and steel) there to get it
>>>> recycled and shipped back to us. Jimp the Chimp insists that it's not
>>>> a colony unless it is totally self-sufficient at a quality of life
>>>> similar to a rich suburb in Connecticut with a population of billions.
>>>> I think the bar is much lower both in quality of life and numbers; a
>>>> relatively small population (hundreds) that can manage survival
>>>> through an extended interruption in resupply is a 'colony' for me. My
>>>> definition is closer to the classical Earthbound definition, where
>>>> colonies failed due to interruptions in supplies from back home.
>>>
>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, but the problem is one of those voices is you saying all sorts
>> of stupid shite.
>>
>
>You mean stupid things like you can breath on Earth but not on Mars
>and that mothers put diapers on babbies long before Pampers were invented?
>
So one of the items on your list is now 'cloth' or something similar.
You realize that most colonies weren't doing a lot of weaving of cloth
right away, right?
>
>You really bought in hard on that Rocket to the Moon ride at Disneyland,
>didn't you?
>
You really bought in hard on that Mr Toad's Wild Ride ride at
Disneyland, didn't you?
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-10 06:16 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <em7ptc-3mj.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #569336 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> And just how 'self sufficient' does a colony have to be in order to be >>>>> a 'colony'? Remember, we used to ship shirts to China to have them >>>>> laundered and still ship scrap (plastic and steel) there to get it >>>>> recycled and shipped back to us. Jimp the Chimp insists that it's not >>>>> a colony unless it is totally self-sufficient at a quality of life >>>>> similar to a rich suburb in Connecticut with a population of billions. >>>>> I think the bar is much lower both in quality of life and numbers; a >>>>> relatively small population (hundreds) that can manage survival >>>>> through an extended interruption in resupply is a 'colony' for me. My >>>>> definition is closer to the classical Earthbound definition, where >>>>> colonies failed due to interruptions in supplies from back home. >>>> >>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Yeah, but the problem is one of those voices is you saying all sorts >>> of stupid shite. >>> >> >>You mean stupid things like you can breath on Earth but not on Mars >>and that mothers put diapers on babbies long before Pampers were invented? >> > > So one of the items on your list is now 'cloth' or something similar. > You realize that most colonies weren't doing a lot of weaving of cloth > right away, right? Right, they had to wait for the first cotton crop to come in before the women could make cloth or they would use animal skins from the readily available game. -- Jim Pennino
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-10 06:46 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <u5mkgb5qrjtufukgu755u7qaavfsbmga1e@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #569417 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> And just how 'self sufficient' does a colony have to be in order to be
>>>>>> a 'colony'? Remember, we used to ship shirts to China to have them
>>>>>> laundered and still ship scrap (plastic and steel) there to get it
>>>>>> recycled and shipped back to us. Jimp the Chimp insists that it's not
>>>>>> a colony unless it is totally self-sufficient at a quality of life
>>>>>> similar to a rich suburb in Connecticut with a population of billions.
>>>>>> I think the bar is much lower both in quality of life and numbers; a
>>>>>> relatively small population (hundreds) that can manage survival
>>>>>> through an extended interruption in resupply is a 'colony' for me. My
>>>>>> definition is closer to the classical Earthbound definition, where
>>>>>> colonies failed due to interruptions in supplies from back home.
>>>>>
>>>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, but the problem is one of those voices is you saying all sorts
>>>> of stupid shite.
>>>>
>>>
>>>You mean stupid things like you can breath on Earth but not on Mars
>>>and that mothers put diapers on babbies long before Pampers were invented?
>>>
>>
>> So one of the items on your list is now 'cloth' or something similar.
>> You realize that most colonies weren't doing a lot of weaving of cloth
>> right away, right?
>
>Right, they had to wait for the first cotton crop to come in before the
>women could make cloth or they would use animal skins from the readily
>available game.
>
Except they didn't do either of those things. Instead they shipped
the stuff in. Even as late as the mid-19th century it was cheaper to
import than to produce locally. Tariffs to protect northern textiles
were one of the causes of the civil war.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-10 16:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <q8bqtc-6hn.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #569423 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> And just how 'self sufficient' does a colony have to be in order to be >>>>>>> a 'colony'? Remember, we used to ship shirts to China to have them >>>>>>> laundered and still ship scrap (plastic and steel) there to get it >>>>>>> recycled and shipped back to us. Jimp the Chimp insists that it's not >>>>>>> a colony unless it is totally self-sufficient at a quality of life >>>>>>> similar to a rich suburb in Connecticut with a population of billions. >>>>>>> I think the bar is much lower both in quality of life and numbers; a >>>>>>> relatively small population (hundreds) that can manage survival >>>>>>> through an extended interruption in resupply is a 'colony' for me. My >>>>>>> definition is closer to the classical Earthbound definition, where >>>>>>> colonies failed due to interruptions in supplies from back home. >>>>>> >>>>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yeah, but the problem is one of those voices is you saying all sorts >>>>> of stupid shite. >>>>> >>>> >>>>You mean stupid things like you can breath on Earth but not on Mars >>>>and that mothers put diapers on babbies long before Pampers were invented? >>>> >>> >>> So one of the items on your list is now 'cloth' or something similar. >>> You realize that most colonies weren't doing a lot of weaving of cloth >>> right away, right? >> >>Right, they had to wait for the first cotton crop to come in before the >>women could make cloth or they would use animal skins from the readily >>available game. >> > > Except they didn't do either of those things. Instead they shipped > the stuff in. Even as late as the mid-19th century it was cheaper to > import than to produce locally. Tariffs to protect northern textiles > were one of the causes of the civil war. What was shipped in was the fine textiles and the Civil War was after the colonial period. Spinning wheels and looms were common items during the colonial period. Go visit a museum. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-10 15:19 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <n4klgb936tckje8sivupj0n8fp26bub6c0@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #569464 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And just how 'self sufficient' does a colony have to be in order to be
>>>>>>>> a 'colony'? Remember, we used to ship shirts to China to have them
>>>>>>>> laundered and still ship scrap (plastic and steel) there to get it
>>>>>>>> recycled and shipped back to us. Jimp the Chimp insists that it's not
>>>>>>>> a colony unless it is totally self-sufficient at a quality of life
>>>>>>>> similar to a rich suburb in Connecticut with a population of billions.
>>>>>>>> I think the bar is much lower both in quality of life and numbers; a
>>>>>>>> relatively small population (hundreds) that can manage survival
>>>>>>>> through an extended interruption in resupply is a 'colony' for me. My
>>>>>>>> definition is closer to the classical Earthbound definition, where
>>>>>>>> colonies failed due to interruptions in supplies from back home.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, but the problem is one of those voices is you saying all sorts
>>>>>> of stupid shite.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>You mean stupid things like you can breath on Earth but not on Mars
>>>>>and that mothers put diapers on babbies long before Pampers were invented?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So one of the items on your list is now 'cloth' or something similar.
>>>> You realize that most colonies weren't doing a lot of weaving of cloth
>>>> right away, right?
>>>
>>>Right, they had to wait for the first cotton crop to come in before the
>>>women could make cloth or they would use animal skins from the readily
>>>available game.
>>>
>>
>> Except they didn't do either of those things. Instead they shipped
>> the stuff in. Even as late as the mid-19th century it was cheaper to
>> import than to produce locally. Tariffs to protect northern textiles
>> were one of the causes of the civil war.
>
>What was shipped in was the fine textiles ...
>
Depends on when you look.
>
>... and the Civil War was after the colonial period.
>
And they STILL hadn't established a textile industry that could
compete with imports without protection. That would tell you
something if you didn't just ball up your little fists and scream
"NO".
>
>Spinning wheels and looms were common items during the colonial period.
>
Shipped in. Colonies focused on growing FOOD. Everything else
shipped in until that was handled.
>
>Go visit a museum.
>
Go visit a lavatory and see if you can dislodge your head.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-10 22:49 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <it1rtc-gpp.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #569550 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And just how 'self sufficient' does a colony have to be in order to be >>>>>>>>> a 'colony'? Remember, we used to ship shirts to China to have them >>>>>>>>> laundered and still ship scrap (plastic and steel) there to get it >>>>>>>>> recycled and shipped back to us. Jimp the Chimp insists that it's not >>>>>>>>> a colony unless it is totally self-sufficient at a quality of life >>>>>>>>> similar to a rich suburb in Connecticut with a population of billions. >>>>>>>>> I think the bar is much lower both in quality of life and numbers; a >>>>>>>>> relatively small population (hundreds) that can manage survival >>>>>>>>> through an extended interruption in resupply is a 'colony' for me. My >>>>>>>>> definition is closer to the classical Earthbound definition, where >>>>>>>>> colonies failed due to interruptions in supplies from back home. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yeah, but the problem is one of those voices is you saying all sorts >>>>>>> of stupid shite. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>You mean stupid things like you can breath on Earth but not on Mars >>>>>>and that mothers put diapers on babbies long before Pampers were invented? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So one of the items on your list is now 'cloth' or something similar. >>>>> You realize that most colonies weren't doing a lot of weaving of cloth >>>>> right away, right? >>>> >>>>Right, they had to wait for the first cotton crop to come in before the >>>>women could make cloth or they would use animal skins from the readily >>>>available game. >>>> >>> >>> Except they didn't do either of those things. Instead they shipped >>> the stuff in. Even as late as the mid-19th century it was cheaper to >>> import than to produce locally. Tariffs to protect northern textiles >>> were one of the causes of the civil war. >> >>What was shipped in was the fine textiles ... >> > > Depends on when you look. Any time after the first year or so. >> >>... and the Civil War was after the colonial period. >> > > And they STILL hadn't established a textile industry that could > compete with imports without protection. That would tell you > something if you didn't just ball up your little fists and scream > "NO". Which imports would that be; it certainly wasn't generic cloth. >> >>Spinning wheels and looms were common items during the colonial period. >> > > Shipped in. Colonies focused on growing FOOD. Everything else > shipped in until that was handled. Of course the spinning wheels and looms were shipped in, especially initially. And then the WOMEN of the FAMILIES used them to make cloth. >>Go visit a museum. >> > > Go visit a lavatory and see if you can dislodge your head. Fuck off and die, space cadet ass hole. Here is the big question you keep ignoring: How is it that the indigenous people who had been there for thousands of years without resupply could survive and thrive but the Europeans couldn't survive at all without resupply? Were the Europeans too lazy, too stupid, or too fraile? -- Jim Pennino
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-10 20:02 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <uk4mgb5h5de0rbgjfnpo88v6fdoag03mji@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #569556 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And just how 'self sufficient' does a colony have to be in order to be
>>>>>>>>>> a 'colony'? Remember, we used to ship shirts to China to have them
>>>>>>>>>> laundered and still ship scrap (plastic and steel) there to get it
>>>>>>>>>> recycled and shipped back to us. Jimp the Chimp insists that it's not
>>>>>>>>>> a colony unless it is totally self-sufficient at a quality of life
>>>>>>>>>> similar to a rich suburb in Connecticut with a population of billions.
>>>>>>>>>> I think the bar is much lower both in quality of life and numbers; a
>>>>>>>>>> relatively small population (hundreds) that can manage survival
>>>>>>>>>> through an extended interruption in resupply is a 'colony' for me. My
>>>>>>>>>> definition is closer to the classical Earthbound definition, where
>>>>>>>>>> colonies failed due to interruptions in supplies from back home.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, but the problem is one of those voices is you saying all sorts
>>>>>>>> of stupid shite.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You mean stupid things like you can breath on Earth but not on Mars
>>>>>>>and that mothers put diapers on babbies long before Pampers were invented?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So one of the items on your list is now 'cloth' or something similar.
>>>>>> You realize that most colonies weren't doing a lot of weaving of cloth
>>>>>> right away, right?
>>>>>
>>>>>Right, they had to wait for the first cotton crop to come in before the
>>>>>women could make cloth or they would use animal skins from the readily
>>>>>available game.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Except they didn't do either of those things. Instead they shipped
>>>> the stuff in. Even as late as the mid-19th century it was cheaper to
>>>> import than to produce locally. Tariffs to protect northern textiles
>>>> were one of the causes of the civil war.
>>>
>>>What was shipped in was the fine textiles ...
>>>
>>
>> Depends on when you look.
>
>Any time after the first year or so.
>
Wrong.
>>>
>>>... and the Civil War was after the colonial period.
>>>
>>
>> And they STILL hadn't established a textile industry that could
>> compete with imports without protection. That would tell you
>> something if you didn't just ball up your little fists and scream
>> "NO".
>
>Which imports would that be; it certainly wasn't generic cloth.
>
Oh, it certainly was, as I've explained elsewhere (with citations and
not stamping my foot like you do).
>>>
>>>Spinning wheels and looms were common items during the colonial period.
>>>
>>
>> Shipped in. Colonies focused on growing FOOD. Everything else
>> shipped in until that was handled.
>
>Of course the spinning wheels and looms were shipped in, especially
>initially.
>
>And then the WOMEN of the FAMILIES used them to make cloth.
>
But they didn't meet your definition of 'self-sufficient' because when
those things broke, they had to import the parts (or new machines).
And the colonies were nowhere near self sufficient in cloth. One of
the primary imports was finished textiles and clothing.
>>>Go visit a museum.
>>>
>>
>> Go visit a lavatory and see if you can dislodge your head.
>
>Fuck off and die, space cadet ass hole.
>
Feel free to perform an anatomically inappropriate act with yourself,
chimp.
>
>Here is the big question you keep ignoring:
>
>How is it that the indigenous people who had been there for thousands
>of years without resupply could survive and thrive but the Europeans
>couldn't survive at all without resupply?
>
>Were the Europeans too lazy, too stupid, or too fraile?
>
Here's the big question YOU keep ignoring:
Why did so many colonies fail and so many more come so close to it?
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-11 04:05 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <7ekrtc-skr.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #569603 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And just how 'self sufficient' does a colony have to be in order to be >>>>>>>>>>> a 'colony'? Remember, we used to ship shirts to China to have them >>>>>>>>>>> laundered and still ship scrap (plastic and steel) there to get it >>>>>>>>>>> recycled and shipped back to us. Jimp the Chimp insists that it's not >>>>>>>>>>> a colony unless it is totally self-sufficient at a quality of life >>>>>>>>>>> similar to a rich suburb in Connecticut with a population of billions. >>>>>>>>>>> I think the bar is much lower both in quality of life and numbers; a >>>>>>>>>>> relatively small population (hundreds) that can manage survival >>>>>>>>>>> through an extended interruption in resupply is a 'colony' for me. My >>>>>>>>>>> definition is closer to the classical Earthbound definition, where >>>>>>>>>>> colonies failed due to interruptions in supplies from back home. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yeah, but the problem is one of those voices is you saying all sorts >>>>>>>>> of stupid shite. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>You mean stupid things like you can breath on Earth but not on Mars >>>>>>>>and that mothers put diapers on babbies long before Pampers were invented? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So one of the items on your list is now 'cloth' or something similar. >>>>>>> You realize that most colonies weren't doing a lot of weaving of cloth >>>>>>> right away, right? >>>>>> >>>>>>Right, they had to wait for the first cotton crop to come in before the >>>>>>women could make cloth or they would use animal skins from the readily >>>>>>available game. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Except they didn't do either of those things. Instead they shipped >>>>> the stuff in. Even as late as the mid-19th century it was cheaper to >>>>> import than to produce locally. Tariffs to protect northern textiles >>>>> were one of the causes of the civil war. >>>> >>>>What was shipped in was the fine textiles ... >>>> >>> >>> Depends on when you look. >> >>Any time after the first year or so. >> > > Wrong. Then what were women doing with those spinning wheels and looms? > >>>> >>>>... and the Civil War was after the colonial period. >>>> >>> >>> And they STILL hadn't established a textile industry that could >>> compete with imports without protection. That would tell you >>> something if you didn't just ball up your little fists and scream >>> "NO". >> >>Which imports would that be; it certainly wasn't generic cloth. >> > > Oh, it certainly was, as I've explained elsewhere (with citations and > not stamping my foot like you do). Then what were women doing with those spinning wheels and looms? >>>> >>>>Spinning wheels and looms were common items during the colonial period. >>>> >>> >>> Shipped in. Colonies focused on growing FOOD. Everything else >>> shipped in until that was handled. >> >>Of course the spinning wheels and looms were shipped in, especially >>initially. >> >>And then the WOMEN of the FAMILIES used them to make cloth. >> > > But they didn't meet your definition of 'self-sufficient' because when > those things broke, they had to import the parts (or new machines). > And the colonies were nowhere near self sufficient in cloth. One of > the primary imports was finished textiles and clothing. Those things are made of wood. The majority of people were farmers and made most of their own stuff on spinning wheels and looms. >>>>Go visit a museum. >>>> >>> >>> Go visit a lavatory and see if you can dislodge your head. >> >>Fuck off and die, space cadet ass hole. >> > > Feel free to perform an anatomically inappropriate act with yourself, > chimp. > >> >>Here is the big question you keep ignoring: >> >>How is it that the indigenous people who had been there for thousands >>of years without resupply could survive and thrive but the Europeans >>couldn't survive at all without resupply? >> >>Were the Europeans too lazy, too stupid, or too fraile? >> > > Here's the big question YOU keep ignoring: > > Why did so many colonies fail and so many more come so close to it? Not all colonies that failed were a survival issue, a lot were economic failures. The reasons were poor site planning, attacks from indigenous people, disease, attacks from other governments, wasting time searching for mythical gold, and not paying proper attention to getting crops planted. None failed for lack of air or water. How is it that the indigenous people who had been there for thousands of years without resupply could survive and thrive but the Europeans couldn't survive at all without resupply? That the indigenous people survived and thrived building civilizations on their own is de facto proof that support from Europe is not needed to survive in the Americas. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-11 01:41 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <jiomgb11mrqg9728qsd98cqb69opvas339@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #569610 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And just how 'self sufficient' does a colony have to be in order to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> a 'colony'? Remember, we used to ship shirts to China to have them
>>>>>>>>>>>> laundered and still ship scrap (plastic and steel) there to get it
>>>>>>>>>>>> recycled and shipped back to us. Jimp the Chimp insists that it's not
>>>>>>>>>>>> a colony unless it is totally self-sufficient at a quality of life
>>>>>>>>>>>> similar to a rich suburb in Connecticut with a population of billions.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the bar is much lower both in quality of life and numbers; a
>>>>>>>>>>>> relatively small population (hundreds) that can manage survival
>>>>>>>>>>>> through an extended interruption in resupply is a 'colony' for me. My
>>>>>>>>>>>> definition is closer to the classical Earthbound definition, where
>>>>>>>>>>>> colonies failed due to interruptions in supplies from back home.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, but the problem is one of those voices is you saying all sorts
>>>>>>>>>> of stupid shite.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>You mean stupid things like you can breath on Earth but not on Mars
>>>>>>>>>and that mothers put diapers on babbies long before Pampers were invented?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So one of the items on your list is now 'cloth' or something similar.
>>>>>>>> You realize that most colonies weren't doing a lot of weaving of cloth
>>>>>>>> right away, right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Right, they had to wait for the first cotton crop to come in before the
>>>>>>>women could make cloth or they would use animal skins from the readily
>>>>>>>available game.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Except they didn't do either of those things. Instead they shipped
>>>>>> the stuff in. Even as late as the mid-19th century it was cheaper to
>>>>>> import than to produce locally. Tariffs to protect northern textiles
>>>>>> were one of the causes of the civil war.
>>>>>
>>>>>What was shipped in was the fine textiles ...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depends on when you look.
>>>
>>>Any time after the first year or so.
>>>
>>
>> Wrong.
>
>Then what were women doing with those spinning wheels and looms?
>
What are you doing with an airplane?
Why did the colonies import so much cloth and so much finished
clothing?
Why don't you read cites?
>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>... and the Civil War was after the colonial period.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And they STILL hadn't established a textile industry that could
>>>> compete with imports without protection. That would tell you
>>>> something if you didn't just ball up your little fists and scream
>>>> "NO".
>>>
>>>Which imports would that be; it certainly wasn't generic cloth.
>>>
>>
>> Oh, it certainly was, as I've explained elsewhere (with citations and
>> not stamping my foot like you do).
>
>
>Then what were women doing with those spinning wheels and looms?
>
What are you doing with an airplane?
Why did the colonies import so much cloth and so much finished
clothing?
Why don't you read cites?
>>>>>
>>>>>Spinning wheels and looms were common items during the colonial period.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Shipped in. Colonies focused on growing FOOD. Everything else
>>>> shipped in until that was handled.
>>>
>>>Of course the spinning wheels and looms were shipped in, especially
>>>initially.
>>>
>>>And then the WOMEN of the FAMILIES used them to make cloth.
>>>
>>
>> But they didn't meet your definition of 'self-sufficient' because when
>> those things broke, they had to import the parts (or new machines).
>> And the colonies were nowhere near self sufficient in cloth. One of
>> the primary imports was finished textiles and clothing.
>
>Those things are made of wood.
>
>The majority of people were farmers and made most of their own stuff
>on spinning wheels and looms.
>
So you keep asserting. I've given you cites that prove otherwise.
What are you doing with an airplane?
Why did the colonies import so much cloth and so much finished
clothing?
Why don't you read cites?
>>>>>Go visit a museum.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Go visit a lavatory and see if you can dislodge your head.
>>>
>>>Fuck off and die, space cadet ass hole.
>>>
>>
>> Feel free to perform an anatomically inappropriate act with yourself,
>> chimp.
>>
>>>
>>>Here is the big question you keep ignoring:
>>>
>>>How is it that the indigenous people who had been there for thousands
>>>of years without resupply could survive and thrive but the Europeans
>>>couldn't survive at all without resupply?
>>>
>>>Were the Europeans too lazy, too stupid, or too fraile?
>>>
>>
>> Here's the big question YOU keep ignoring:
>>
>> Why did so many colonies fail and so many more come so close to it?
>>
>
>Not all colonies that failed were a survival issue, a lot were economic
>failures.
>
>The reasons were poor site planning, attacks from indigenous people,
>disease, attacks from other governments, wasting time searching for
>mythical gold, and not paying proper attention to getting crops planted.
>
>None failed for lack of air or water.
>
Lots failed from lack of food, lack of resupply, etc.
>
>How is it that the indigenous people who had been there for thousands
>of years without resupply could survive and thrive but the Europeans
>couldn't survive at all without resupply?
>
Barely.
>
>That the indigenous people survived and thrived building civilizations
>on their own is de facto proof that support from Europe is not needed
>to survive in the Americas.
>
If you had hundreds of thousands of years leading up to it. Funny how
you insist a colony must be 'instant'...
--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-11 18:18 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ac6ttc-ji3.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #569660 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: <snip> >>Then what were women doing with those spinning wheels and looms? >> > > What are you doing with an airplane? Flying it where ever I want to. > Why did the colonies import so much cloth and so much finished > clothing? The demand for luxury goods exceeded local supply. The clothing required to survive was avaiable locally as is shown by the fact that indigenous people thrived and built civilizations for thousands of years without any imports from Europe. <snip> >>Then what were women doing with those spinning wheels and looms? >> > > What are you doing with an airplane? Using it for the intended purpose just like the colonial women were doing with the spinning wheels and looms, i.e. making thread and cloth. <snip> >>Those things are made of wood. >> >>The majority of people were farmers and made most of their own stuff >>on spinning wheels and looms. >> > > So you keep asserting. I've given you cites that prove otherwise. When things are made of wood, repair parts literally grow on trees, space cadet. >>How is it that the indigenous people who had been there for thousands >>of years without resupply could survive and thrive but the Europeans >>couldn't survive at all without resupply? >> > > Barely. Ever heard of the Aztecs and Mayans, space cadet? Civilizatons that had large cities, mathematics, astronomy and more for thousands of years until the Europeans showed up. >>That the indigenous people survived and thrived building civilizations >>on their own is de facto proof that support from Europe is not needed >>to survive in the Americas. >> > > If you had hundreds of thousands of years leading up to it. Funny how > you insist a colony must be 'instant'... Not hundreds of thousands of years, just thousands of years and never had to be resupplied from Europe. -- Jim Pennino
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