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Groups > sci.physics > #689172 > unrolled thread

Can quantum measurement be rejected ?

Started bywill <willscranton@butchersboulevard.commypanprofile>
First post2018-06-06 18:07 +0000
Last post2018-06-06 16:30 -0400
Articles 20 on this page of 96 — 15 participants

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  Can  quantum measurement be rejected ? will <willscranton@butchersboulevard.commypanprofile> - 2018-06-06 18:07 +0000
    Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 18:14 +0000
      Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? will <willscranton@butchersboulevard.commypanprofile> - 2018-06-06 22:38 +0000
        Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? Alan Folmsbee <omnilobe@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 17:43 -0700
          Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? will <willscranton@butchersboulevard.commypanprofile> - 2018-06-07 22:07 +0000
            Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? Alan Folmsbee <omnilobe@gmail.com> - 2018-06-07 17:12 -0700
              Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? will <willscranton@butchersboulevard.commypanprofile> - 2018-06-08 14:49 +0000
        Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-06 22:39 -0400
          Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-06-07 05:19 +0200
            Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-07 05:31 -0400
              Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-06-07 12:01 +0200
                Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-07 16:32 -0400
                  Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? will <willscranton@butchersboulevard.commypanprofile> - 2018-06-07 21:58 +0000
                    Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-08 04:12 -0700
                      Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? will <willscranton@butchersboulevard.commypanprofile> - 2018-06-08 14:38 +0000
                  Re: Can quantum measurement be rejected ? Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-06-08 02:41 +0200
    "Quantum Mechanics" has no cause and effect, just probabilities. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-06 11:47 -0700
      Re: "Quantum Mechanics" has no cause and effect, just probabilities. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 19:00 +0000
        We assert useful premises, disregarding the truth. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-06 12:25 -0700
          Re: We assert useful premises, disregarding the truth. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-06 16:35 -0400
            Re: We assert useful premises, disregarding the truth. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-06 17:52 -0700
              Re: We assert useful premises, disregarding the truth. mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-06-06 18:15 -0700
              No truth, Nothing to aspire to ? Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-06 18:21 -0700
                Re: No truth, Nothing to aspire to ? benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-06 22:47 -0400
                  NO TRUTH. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-06 20:28 -0700
                    Re: NO TRUTH. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-07 05:32 -0400
                      Harp playing, androgynous angels in the clouds ? Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-07 11:18 -0700
                        Re: Harp playing, androgynous angels in the clouds ? benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-07 16:42 -0400
                          Ben Jacoby takes _pride_ in his randomness, I don't. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-07 14:15 -0700
                            Re: Ben Jacoby takes _pride_ in his randomness, I don't. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-08 02:20 -0400
                              Worshiping Ignorance. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-07 23:36 -0700
                                Re: Worshiping Ignorance. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-08 11:42 -0400
                                  " I can choose to do the opposite of what I prefer " -- Ben Jacoby. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-08 10:17 -0700
                                  Re: Worshiping Ignorance. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-09 01:58 +0000
                                    Re: Worshiping Ignorance. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-08 19:55 -0700
                                      Re: Worshiping Ignorance. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-09 21:37 +0000
                                        EINSTEIN's category, far from the Pope. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 14:51 -0700
                                          Re: EINSTEIN's category, far from the Pope. Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2018-06-09 22:01 +0000
                                            To a retard, _everything_ is "random". Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 15:11 -0700
                                            Re: EINSTEIN's category, far from the Pope. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 15:13 -0700
                                            Re: EINSTEIN's category, far from the Pope. Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-10 15:52 -0700
                                          Re: EINSTEIN's category, far from the Pope. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-09 22:54 +0000
                                            People are forever MisQuoting Einstein; I correct them. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 16:40 -0700
                                              Re: People are forever MisQuoting Einstein; I correct them. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-10 00:15 +0000
                                                Putting words in Einstein's mouth. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 17:42 -0700
                                                  Re: Putting words in Einstein's mouth. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-10 00:59 +0000
                                                    God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he". Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 18:28 -0700
                                                      Re: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he". vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-10 01:42 +0000
                                                        Mark Twain was a determinist. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 20:16 -0700
                                                          Re: Mark Twain was a determinist. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-10 12:48 -0400
                                                            Quantum Mechanics is statistical, not complete. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-10 10:51 -0700
                                                              Re: Quantum Mechanics is statistical, not complete. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-11 11:02 -0400
                                                                Quantum Mechanics is statistical, not complete. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 09:20 -0700
                                                                  Re: Quantum Mechanics is statistical, not complete. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-11 17:09 -0400
                                                                    Bell's theorem is just another "I don't know". Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 14:32 -0700
                                                                      Re: Bell's theorem is just another "I don't know". Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-11 14:33 -0700
                                                                        No one can "prove" ThermoDynamics and/or General Relativity, 100.00000000%. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 15:00 -0700
                                                                          Re: No one can "prove" ThermoDynamics and/or General Relativity, 100.00000000%. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-11 15:01 -0700
                                                                            We assert _useful_ premises ( and ThermoDynamics is _Very_ useful ). Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 15:27 -0700
                                                                      Re: Bell's theorem is just another "I don't know". benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-11 19:57 -0400
                                                                        Re: Bell's theorem is just another "I don't know". vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-12 17:11 +0000
                                                                          SuperDeterminism was useful to Einstein, and to me. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-12 12:03 -0700
                                                                            Re: SuperDeterminism was useful to Einstein, and to me. Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-13 09:03 -0700
                                                                              Enjoy your silly hat. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-13 14:46 -0700
                                                                                Re: Enjoy your silly hat. Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-14 08:20 -0700
                                                                                  Sex toys/dolls. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-15 00:44 -0700
                                                                                    Re: Sex toys/dolls. Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-15 05:49 -0700
                                                                                      Re: Sex toys/dolls. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-15 11:47 -0400
                                                                                      MostChristian != BestChristian Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-15 13:46 -0700
                                                      Re: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he". mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-06-09 19:37 -0700
                                                      Re: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he". benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-09 22:59 -0400
                                                        Re: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he". vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-10 03:51 +0000
                                                          Re: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he". benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-10 12:50 -0400
                                                            Mark Twain, Einstein and Stephen Hawking are revered by nerds Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-10 11:01 -0700
                                                              Re: Mark Twain, Einstein and Stephen Hawking are revered by nerds benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-11 11:06 -0400
                                                                Asleep, living in a dream. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 10:04 -0700
                                                                  Re: Asleep, living in a dream. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-11 14:22 -0500
                                                                  Re: Asleep, living in a dream. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-11 17:21 -0400
                                                                    Your house is built on sand. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 14:43 -0700
                                                    Re: Putting words in Einstein's mouth. chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2018-06-11 07:02 -0500
                                                      Quantum Mechanics is _not_ complete. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 09:41 -0700
                                                        Re: Quantum Mechanics is _not_ complete. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-11 17:17 -0400
                                                          "statistics is [sic] real" -- Ben Jacoby. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 14:39 -0700
                                                            Re: "statistics is [sic] real" -- Ben Jacoby. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-11 14:53 -0700
                                                              When I hear the word "Quantum", I replace it with the word "BullShit". Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 15:09 -0700
                                                            Re: "statistics is [sic] real" -- Ben Jacoby. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-11 20:00 -0400
                                                              " I can't know "  -- Bell's Theorem. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-11 19:29 -0700
                                          Re: EINSTEIN's category, far from the Pope. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-09 22:28 -0400
                                        Re: Worshiping Ignorance. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 14:53 -0700
                                          Re: Worshiping Ignorance. Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-06-09 16:41 -0700
                                    If the truth is your enemy... Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 00:14 -0700
                                    Re: Worshiping Ignorance. Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2018-06-09 06:52 -0400
          Re: We assert useful premises, disregarding the truth. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 21:22 +0000
            I feel rich, very rich. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-06 14:39 -0700
        Re: "Quantum Mechanics" has no cause and effect, just probabilities. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-06 16:32 -0400
      Re: "Quantum Mechanics" has no cause and effect, just probabilities. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-06 16:30 -0400

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#690237 — Re: Bell's theorem is just another "I don't know".

Fromvallor <vallor@cultnix.org>
Date2018-06-12 17:11 +0000
SubjectRe: Bell's theorem is just another "I don't know".
Message-ID<foad54F6f3uU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#690133
On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 19:57:27 -0400, benj wrote:

> On 6/11/2018 5:32 PM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
>> You don't have to be an Einstein ( and you sure aren't )
>> to realize that Quantum Mechanics isn't complete.
>> 
>> Bell's theorem is just another "I don't know".
>> 
>> All of history, every lesson ever, every advance, tells _me_:
>> 
>>     Randomness is ignorance, nothing more;
>>     otherwise, there'd be NO TRUTH, nothing for _me_ to aspire to.
>> 
> Just keep preaching Rev. Say it enough an it becomes true science!

If I understand the Rev. correctly, he's a proponent of superdeterminism.

I'm not sure that superdeterminism is a testable hypothesis.  Is it 
science?

I think there was once a scientist of some renown that said that he was 
fascinated that the universe was knowable.  I'll try to remember who that 
was, hopefully someone can jog my memory.

-- 
-v

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#690264 — SuperDeterminism was useful to Einstein, and to me.

FromJeff-Relf.Me @.
Date2018-06-12 12:03 -0700
SubjectSuperDeterminism was useful to Einstein, and to me.
Message-ID<Jeff-Relf.Me@Jun.12--0.03pm.Seattle.2018>
In reply to#690237
You (Scott) wrote:
> If I understand [Jeff] correctly, he's a proponent of superdeterminism.

SuperDeterminism was useful to Einstein, and to me;
it is _not_ useful to The Pope, nor to you.

> I'm not sure that superdeterminism is a testable hypothesis.
> Is it science?

You can't prove anything, not ThermoDynamics ( Entropy and eXergy ),
nor General Relativity; in fact, they _contradict_ each other.

The best you can do is:

  - Find it useful ( in its domain ).
  - Try to Falsify it ( in its domain ).

> I think there was once a scientist of some renown 
> that said that he was fascinated that the universe was knowable.
> hopefully someone can jog my memory.

It was Adam, when he left "dad's house" ( the Garden of Eden ).

"The Universe is knowable" - Neil deGrasse Tyson, on YouTube.

P.S. The biggest "loophole" in Bell's Theorem is:

  It's an _Ensemble_ of tests, a series, not just one test,
  like a pollster, asking _10_ people if they'll vote for Hillary or not;
  it's incomplete, SemiRandom -- intrinsically, it's misleading.

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#690426 — Re: SuperDeterminism was useful to Einstein, and to me.

FromEdward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com>
Date2018-06-13 09:03 -0700
SubjectRe: SuperDeterminism was useful to Einstein, and to me.
Message-ID<abb07276-78f6-4088-837b-3f62857a81ef@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#690264
On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 3:04:03 PM UTC-4, Jeff-Relf.Me wrote:
> You (Scott) wrote:
> > If I understand [Jeff] correctly, he's a proponent of superdeterminism.
> 
> SuperDeterminism was useful to Einstein, and to me;
> it is _not_ useful to The Pope, nor to you.
> 
> > I'm not sure that superdeterminism is a testable hypothesis.
> > Is it science?
> 
> You can't prove anything, not ThermoDynamics ( Entropy and eXergy ),
> nor General Relativity; in fact, they _contradict_ each other.
> 
> The best you can do is:
> 
>   - Find it useful ( in its domain ).
>   - Try to Falsify it ( in its domain ).

Something useful out of you. Congratulations!

> 
> > I think there was once a scientist of some renown 
> > that said that he was fascinated that the universe was knowable.
> > hopefully someone can jog my memory.
> 
> It was Adam, when he left "dad's house" ( the Garden of Eden ).
> 
> "The Universe is knowable" - Neil deGrasse Tyson, on YouTube.

Albert Einstein.
 "The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is 
  that it is comprehensible" from "Physics and Reality"(1936)
> 
> P.S. The biggest "loophole" in Bell's Theorem is:
> 
>   It's an _Ensemble_ of tests, a series, not just one test,
>   like a pollster, asking _10_ people if they'll vote for Hillary or not;
>   it's incomplete, SemiRandom -- intrinsically, it's misleading.

All scientific theories are supported by
"an _Ensemble_ of tests, a series, not just one test".

Bell's theorem meets your own criteria. Physicists
"Find it useful ( in its domain )." where the domain is
particle physics. And it has not been falsified (yet).

So rant about indeterminism all you want. Those rants
will not prove the universe is deterministic. And assuming
determinism at the quantum level is not useful.

Ed

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#690483 — Enjoy your silly hat.

FromJeff-Relf.Me @.
Date2018-06-13 14:46 -0700
SubjectEnjoy your silly hat.
Message-ID<Jeff-Relf.Me@Jun.13--2.46pm.Seattle.2018>
In reply to#690426
You ( Ed Prochak ) replied ( to me ):
> > You can't prove anything, not ThermoDynamics ( Entropy and eXergy ),
> > nor General Relativity; in fact, they _contradict_ each other.
> > 
> > The best you can do is:
> > 
> >   - Find it useful ( in its domain ).
> >   - Try to Falsify it ( in its domain ).
> 
> Rant about indeterminism all you want. 
> Those rants will not prove the universe is deterministic. 

Who's trying to "prove" it ? not me.

> > SuperDeterminism was useful to Einstein and me;
> > it is _not_ useful to you and The Pope.
> 
> Assuming determinism at the quantum level is not useful.

Fine, you're on Team Pope, not Team Einstein.
Enjoy your silly hat.

> > P.S. The biggest "loophole" in Bell's Theorem is:
> > 
> >   It's an _Ensemble_ of tests, a series, not just one test,
> >   like a pollster, asking _10_ people if they'll vote for Hillary or not;
> >   it's incomplete, SemiRandom -- intrinsically, it's misleading.
> 
> All scientific theories are supported by
> "an _Ensemble_ of tests, a series, not just one test".

General Relativity is _not_ incomplete, SemiRandom 
-- intrinsically misleading.  The 4-D TimeScape is static,
both everything _and_ nothing.

> > " The Universe is knowable " - Neil deGrasse Tyson, on YouTube.
> 
> << One may say
>    " the eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility "  >>
> 
>     -- Albert Einstein, 1936, in  " Physics and Reality ".

" One may say "...

As his next sentence, Einstein wrote:

  It is one of the great realizations of   Immanuel Kant   that
  the setting up of a real external world would be senseless
  without this comprehensibility.

     -- Albert Einstein, 1936, in  " Physics and Reality ".

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#690597 — Re: Enjoy your silly hat.

FromEdward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com>
Date2018-06-14 08:20 -0700
SubjectRe: Enjoy your silly hat.
Message-ID<8f68bddf-3f06-4950-8b02-64056efc498e@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#690483
On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 5:46:58 PM UTC-4, Jeff-Relf.Me wrote:
> You ( Ed Prochak ) replied ( to me ):
> > > You can't prove anything, not ThermoDynamics ( Entropy and eXergy ),
> > > nor General Relativity; in fact, they _contradict_ each other.
> > > 
> > > The best you can do is:
> > > 
> > >   - Find it useful ( in its domain ).
> > >   - Try to Falsify it ( in its domain ).
> > 
> > Rant about indeterminism all you want. 
> > Those rants will not prove the universe is deterministic. 
> 
> Who's trying to "prove" it ? not me.

Then what is your purpose to repeating that
randomness is ignorance? That there is "SuperDeterminism"

> 
> > > SuperDeterminism was useful to Einstein and me;
> > > it is _not_ useful to you and The Pope.
> > 
> > Assuming determinism at the quantum level is not useful.
> 
> Fine, you're on Team Pope, not Team Einstein.
> Enjoy your silly hat.

I do wear silly hats at times.
and BTW, I am on team Pope and team Einstein.
They play not just different leagues, but in different sports!
> 
> > > P.S. The biggest "loophole" in Bell's Theorem is:
> > > 
> > >   It's an _Ensemble_ of tests, a series, not just one test,
> > >   like a pollster, asking _10_ people if they'll vote for Hillary or not;
> > >   it's incomplete, SemiRandom -- intrinsically, it's misleading.
> > 
> > All scientific theories are supported by
> > "an _Ensemble_ of tests, a series, not just one test".
> 
> General Relativity is _not_ incomplete, SemiRandom 
> -- intrinsically misleading.  The 4-D TimeScape is static,
> both everything _and_ nothing.

Conjecture. It is one view of relativity. and not uncommon.

> 
> > > " The Universe is knowable " - Neil deGrasse Tyson, on YouTube.
> > 
> > << One may say
> >    " the eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility "  >>
> > 
> >     -- Albert Einstein, 1936, in  " Physics and Reality ".
> 
> " One may say "...
> 
> As his next sentence, Einstein wrote:
> 
>   It is one of the great realizations of   Immanuel Kant   that
>   the setting up of a real external world would be senseless
>   without this comprehensibility.
> 
>      -- Albert Einstein, 1936, in  " Physics and Reality ".

Well even the great Albert can fall into a tauntology
on occasion.

But we are slowly coming to realize that there can be
a real external world out there, but that does not mean
or guarantee that it has to be compresensible.

Enjoy.
Ed

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#690691 — Sex toys/dolls.

FromJeff-Relf.Me @.
Date2018-06-15 00:44 -0700
SubjectSex toys/dolls.
Message-ID<Jeff-Relf.Me@Jun.15--0.44am.Seattle.2018>
In reply to#690597
You (Ed) replied:
> > " It is one of the great realizations of   Immanuel Kant   that
> >   the setting up of a real external world would be senseless
> >   without this comprehensibility.  "  -- Einstein.
> 
> even Albert can fall into a tauntology [sic], on occasion.

This, "The Anthropic Principle", is a _useful_ tautology.

> But we are slowly coming to realize that there can be
> a real external world out there, but that does not mean
> or guarantee that it has to be compresensible.

SuperDeterminism is a better religion;
"God" is nature, nothing more, nothing less.

" The Universe is knowable " - Neil deGrasse Tyson:
    YouTube.COM/watch?v=3sAav37h4os

> > Who's trying to "prove" SuperDeterminism ? not me.
> 
> [ Why do you assert SuperDeterminism so much ? ]

Because everyone, from the serial killer to his executer,
are best viewed under this light (SuperDeterminism),
instead of assuming free will, à la Christianity.

We simply prefer the LeastBad "option",
and we can't change what we prefer.

Ted Bundy wanted (female) sex dolls;
Jeffrey Dahmer wanted (male) sex dolls;
the killing was incidental.

Learning that, knowing that, is better than assuming
that Satan got to them, and that they needed Christ.
Today, Mildred, one can _buy_ sex toys/dolls.

The only difference between us and "stars/cars/monkeys"
is how and what we consume... our nitch.

> > You're on Team Pope, not Team Einstein.  Enjoy your silly hat.
> 
> I'm on team Pope and team Einstein.
> They play not just different leagues, but in different sports!

The most "Christian" person I've ever met
was a violent, alcoholic, thieving junkie;
so, yeah, one _can_ play on both sides of the field at once.

> > General Relativity is _not_ incomplete, SemiRandom 
> > -- intrinsically misleading.  The 4-D TimeScape is static,
> > both everything _and_ nothing.
> 
> Conjecture.  It is one view of relativity, and not uncommon.

At the start, there was no entropy, just infinite eXergy/density. 
[ eXergy is a type of energy that can do physical work, force * distance ]
And, because " Time == Entropy ", there was no time on the clock then.

Eventually, this eXergy will be consumed away, replaced with entropy;
leaving us with a uniform heat bath that has all of the energy
but none of the eXergy.  Gravity is the "memory" of where the stuff was.

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#690706 — Re: Sex toys/dolls.

FromEdward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com>
Date2018-06-15 05:49 -0700
SubjectRe: Sex toys/dolls.
Message-ID<4c0e1cfd-a19d-4bde-a977-edbdbadb0cf9@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#690691
On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 3:44:26 AM UTC-4, Jeff-Relf.Me wrote:
> You (Ed) replied:
> > I'm on team Pope and team Einstein.
> > They play not just different leagues, but in different sports!
> 
> The most "Christian" person I've ever met
> was a violent, alcoholic, thieving junkie;
> so, yeah, one _can_ play on both sides of the field at once.

You had a very poor life if that was the best Christian you ever met.

Ed

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#690717 — Re: Sex toys/dolls.

Frombenj <benj@nobody.net>
Date2018-06-15 11:47 -0400
SubjectRe: Sex toys/dolls.
Message-ID<mcRUC.163930$wG5.126207@fx02.iad>
In reply to#690706
On 6/15/2018 8:49 AM, Edward Prochak wrote:
> On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 3:44:26 AM UTC-4, Jeff-Relf.Me wrote:
>> You (Ed) replied:
>>> I'm on team Pope and team Einstein.
>>> They play not just different leagues, but in different sports!
>>
>> The most "Christian" person I've ever met
>> was a violent, alcoholic, thieving junkie;
>> so, yeah, one _can_ play on both sides of the field at once.
> 
> You had a very poor life if that was the best Christian you ever met.
> 
> Ed
> 
Let's just say that in Rolf's world he has a hard time finding "friends".

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#690756 — MostChristian != BestChristian

FromJeff-Relf.Me @.
Date2018-06-15 13:46 -0700
SubjectMostChristian != BestChristian
Message-ID<Jeff-Relf.Me@Jun.15--1.46pm.Seattle.2018>
In reply to#690706
> > The most "Christian" person I've ever met
> > was a violent, alcoholic, thieving junkie;
> > so, yeah, one _can_ play on both sides of the field at once.
> 
> You had a very poor life if that was the best Christian you ever met.

MostChristian != BestChristian

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#689834 — Re: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he".

Frommitchrae3323@gmail.com
Date2018-06-09 19:37 -0700
SubjectRe: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he".
Message-ID<b3860b54-4599-4d8c-b8e1-5ac71ab46113@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#689821
On Saturday, June 9, 2018 at 6:28:13 PM UTC-7, Jeff-Relf.Me wrote:
> Scott... Scott... Scott... Scott... Scott ! ! !
> 
> I know Einstein.
> Like most people, you do not; but that's OK.
> 
> Einstein's "God/Religion" was Mother Nature.
> "God" is nature, nothing more, nothing less.

He said the atheists were his problem on
his death bed. He also said the Nazarene
was beautiful. There was more to Einstein's
God than atheists care to admit.

Mitchell Raemsch; God creates gravity

> And nature is _not_ a person; Einstein made this abundently clear.
> 
> > > I don't share your obsession with the 19th century.
> > > GrecoRoman Diodorus Cronus, circa 300 BCE,
> > > (rightly) noted that the future is just as fixed as the past.
> > 
> > Begging the claim.
> 
> I can take it back father, if you'd rather, to China and India,
> but the record is less clear, so long ago.
> 
> > > Einstein spent decades arguing _against_ the Copenhagen bullshit.
> > > He subscribed to "The Ensemble Interpretation" which says, basically,
> > > that Quantum Mechanics is merely statistical, not complete ( "
> > > correlation does not imply causation " ).
> > 
> > If you'd pull your head out of your posterior for a second, you'd realize 
> > that Einstein's verified quote (supplied below) supports his TREPIDATION 
> > about the Copenhagen interpretation.  ["God Doesn't Play Dice"]
> 
> Yes, you're right, this time.
> God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he".
> 
> Before, you said he " had to admit that the Copenhagen interpretation
> was MORE ACCURATE than he was comfortable with ".
> He _never_ did that, far from it ( see above ).
> 
> > Apologize or not -- makes no difference, except to show what kind of person you are.
> > Indeed, one even say that the courage to apologize involves bucking the 
> > "leastbad" option that you claim is how we work.  Can you do it?
> 
> _You_ made the mistake; _you_ don't know Einsein; I do.
> I'm the one correcting you, not vice versa.
> 
> I don't want an apology from you,
> because I know you simply don't care about this topic,
> not like I do.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#689837 — Re: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he".

Frombenj <benj@nobody.net>
Date2018-06-09 22:59 -0400
SubjectRe: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he".
Message-ID<Hu0TC.216580$o43.15533@fx33.iad>
In reply to#689821
On 6/9/2018 9:28 PM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
> Scott... Scott... Scott... Scott... Scott ! ! !
> 
> I know Einstein.
> Like most people, you do not; but that's OK.
> 
> Einstein's "God/Religion" was Mother Nature.
> "God" is nature, nothing more, nothing less.
> And nature is _not_ a person; Einstein made this abundently clear.
> 
>>> I don't share your obsession with the 19th century.
>>> GrecoRoman Diodorus Cronus, circa 300 BCE,
>>> (rightly) noted that the future is just as fixed as the past.
>>
>> Begging the claim.
> 
> I can take it back father, if you'd rather, to China and India,
> but the record is less clear, so long ago.
> 
>>> Einstein spent decades arguing _against_ the Copenhagen bullshit.
>>> He subscribed to "The Ensemble Interpretation" which says, basically,
>>> that Quantum Mechanics is merely statistical, not complete ( "
>>> correlation does not imply causation " ).
>>
>> If you'd pull your head out of your posterior for a second, you'd realize
>> that Einstein's verified quote (supplied below) supports his TREPIDATION
>> about the Copenhagen interpretation.  ["God Doesn't Play Dice"]
> 
> Yes, you're right, this time.
> God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he".
> 
> Before, you said he " had to admit that the Copenhagen interpretation
> was MORE ACCURATE than he was comfortable with ".
> He _never_ did that, far from it ( see above ).
> 
>> Apologize or not -- makes no difference, except to show what kind of person you are.
>> Indeed, one even say that the courage to apologize involves bucking the
>> "leastbad" option that you claim is how we work.  Can you do it?
> 
> _You_ made the mistake; _you_ don't know Einsein; I do.
> I'm the one correcting you, not vice versa.
> 
> I don't want an apology from you,
> because I know you simply don't care about this topic,
> not like I do.
> 
You are beaten Vallor!  My Care Meter show that Nobody cares about QM 
and causality like Rolf Does. Vallor you are an uncaring knuckle-dragger 
and that means Rolf wins and you lose!

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#689846 — Re: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he".

Fromvallor <vallor@cultnix.org>
Date2018-06-10 03:51 +0000
SubjectRe: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he".
Message-ID<fo3lipFr1ppU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#689837
On Sat, 09 Jun 2018 22:59:52 -0400, benj wrote:

> On 6/9/2018 9:28 PM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
>> Scott... Scott... Scott... Scott... Scott ! ! !
>> 
>> I know Einstein.
>> Like most people, you do not; but that's OK.
>> 
>> Einstein's "God/Religion" was Mother Nature.
>> "God" is nature, nothing more, nothing less.
>> And nature is _not_ a person; Einstein made this abundently clear.
>> 
>>>> I don't share your obsession with the 19th century.
>>>> GrecoRoman Diodorus Cronus, circa 300 BCE,
>>>> (rightly) noted that the future is just as fixed as the past.
>>>
>>> Begging the claim.
>> 
>> I can take it back father, if you'd rather, to China and India,
>> but the record is less clear, so long ago.
>> 
>>>> Einstein spent decades arguing _against_ the Copenhagen bullshit.
>>>> He subscribed to "The Ensemble Interpretation" which says, basically,
>>>> that Quantum Mechanics is merely statistical, not complete ( "
>>>> correlation does not imply causation " ).
>>>
>>> If you'd pull your head out of your posterior for a second, you'd
>>> realize that Einstein's verified quote (supplied below) supports his
>>> TREPIDATION about the Copenhagen interpretation.  ["God Doesn't Play
>>> Dice"]
>> 
>> Yes, you're right, this time.
>> God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he".
>> 
>> Before, you said he " had to admit that the Copenhagen interpretation
>> was MORE ACCURATE than he was comfortable with ".
>> He _never_ did that, far from it ( see above ).
>> 
>>> Apologize or not -- makes no difference, except to show what kind of
>>> person you are.
>>> Indeed, one even say that the courage to apologize involves bucking
>>> the "leastbad" option that you claim is how we work.  Can you do it?
>> 
>> _You_ made the mistake; _you_ don't know Einsein; I do.
>> I'm the one correcting you, not vice versa.
>> 
>> I don't want an apology from you,
>> because I know you simply don't care about this topic,
>> not like I do.
>> 
> You are beaten Vallor!  My Care Meter show that Nobody cares about QM
> and causality like Rolf Does. Vallor you are an uncaring knuckle-dragger
> and that means Rolf wins and you lose!

Yeah yeah, there is no God but Spinoza, and Einstein is his prophet, 
yadda yadda.

-- 
-v

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#689880 — Re: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he".

Frombenj <benj@nobody.net>
Date2018-06-10 12:50 -0400
SubjectRe: God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he".
Message-ID<MFcTC.339801$DS3.321327@fx42.iad>
In reply to#689846
On 6/9/2018 11:51 PM, vallor wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2018 22:59:52 -0400, benj wrote:
> 
>> On 6/9/2018 9:28 PM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
>>> Scott... Scott... Scott... Scott... Scott ! ! !
>>>
>>> I know Einstein.
>>> Like most people, you do not; but that's OK.
>>>
>>> Einstein's "God/Religion" was Mother Nature.
>>> "God" is nature, nothing more, nothing less.
>>> And nature is _not_ a person; Einstein made this abundently clear.
>>>
>>>>> I don't share your obsession with the 19th century.
>>>>> GrecoRoman Diodorus Cronus, circa 300 BCE,
>>>>> (rightly) noted that the future is just as fixed as the past.
>>>>
>>>> Begging the claim.
>>>
>>> I can take it back father, if you'd rather, to China and India,
>>> but the record is less clear, so long ago.
>>>
>>>>> Einstein spent decades arguing _against_ the Copenhagen bullshit.
>>>>> He subscribed to "The Ensemble Interpretation" which says, basically,
>>>>> that Quantum Mechanics is merely statistical, not complete ( "
>>>>> correlation does not imply causation " ).
>>>>
>>>> If you'd pull your head out of your posterior for a second, you'd
>>>> realize that Einstein's verified quote (supplied below) supports his
>>>> TREPIDATION about the Copenhagen interpretation.  ["God Doesn't Play
>>>> Dice"]
>>>
>>> Yes, you're right, this time.
>>> God Doesn't Play Dice, he's not an idiot; nor is he a "he".
>>>
>>> Before, you said he " had to admit that the Copenhagen interpretation
>>> was MORE ACCURATE than he was comfortable with ".
>>> He _never_ did that, far from it ( see above ).
>>>
>>>> Apologize or not -- makes no difference, except to show what kind of
>>>> person you are.
>>>> Indeed, one even say that the courage to apologize involves bucking
>>>> the "leastbad" option that you claim is how we work.  Can you do it?
>>>
>>> _You_ made the mistake; _you_ don't know Einsein; I do.
>>> I'm the one correcting you, not vice versa.
>>>
>>> I don't want an apology from you,
>>> because I know you simply don't care about this topic,
>>> not like I do.
>>>
>> You are beaten Vallor!  My Care Meter show that Nobody cares about QM
>> and causality like Rolf Does. Vallor you are an uncaring knuckle-dragger
>> and that means Rolf wins and you lose!
> 
> Yeah yeah, there is no God but Spinoza, and Einstein is his prophet,
> yadda yadda.
> 
See? You just don't care like Rolf does! QED.

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#689892 — Mark Twain, Einstein and Stephen Hawking are revered by nerds

FromJeff-Relf.Me @.
Date2018-06-10 11:01 -0700
SubjectMark Twain, Einstein and Stephen Hawking are revered by nerds
Message-ID<Jeff-Relf.Me@Jun.10--11.01am.Seattle.2018>
In reply to#689880
You ( Ben and Scott ) wrote:
> > Yeah yeah, there is no God but Spinoza, and Einstein is his prophet,
> > yadda yadda.
> 
> See? You just don't care like Rolf does! QED.

Right, most people don't care; they're asleep,
they can't appreciate "life and death"... not like I do.

Mark Twain, Einstein and Stephen Hawking are revered by nerds
for being "woke" enough to know that we're no better than machines,
no better than fungi.

In "The Grand Design", 2010, Stephen Hawking said:

  it seems that we are no more than biological machines
  and that free will is just an illusion.

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#689998 — Re: Mark Twain, Einstein and Stephen Hawking are revered by nerds

Frombenj <benj@nobody.net>
Date2018-06-11 11:06 -0400
SubjectRe: Mark Twain, Einstein and Stephen Hawking are revered by nerds
Message-ID<9ewTC.126583$pK.102851@fx13.iad>
In reply to#689892
On 6/10/2018 2:01 PM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
> You ( Ben and Scott ) wrote:
>>> Yeah yeah, there is no God but Spinoza, and Einstein is his prophet,
>>> yadda yadda.
>>
>> See? You just don't care like Rolf does! QED.
> 
> Right, most people don't care; they're asleep,
> they can't appreciate "life and death"... not like I do.

Right Rolf. You ar SUCH a caring Left coast Lib. That's why you are such 
a hero out their among the fruits and nuts.

> Mark Twain, Einstein and Stephen Hawking are revered by nerds
> for being "woke" enough to know that we're no better than machines,
> no better than fungi.

Your religious beliefs are NOT proved because someone else believes the 
same crap you do!

> In "The Grand Design", 2010, Stephen Hawking said:
> 
>    it seems that we are no more than biological machines
>    and that free will is just an illusion.

Hawking is an idiot too! His babbling in his later books proves it.

Maybe you need to quote "GOD" to really "prove" your theories!

Nutjob.

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#690027 — Asleep, living in a dream.

FromJeff-Relf.Me @.
Date2018-06-11 10:04 -0700
SubjectAsleep, living in a dream.
Message-ID<Jeff-Relf.Me@Jun.11--10.04am.Seattle.2018>
In reply to#689998
You ( Ben ) told me:
> Maybe you need to quote "GOD" to really "prove" your theories!
> Nutjob.

Who's your God, and what's your theory ?

It's the Bible, right ?  if not, you haven't expressed it,
nor can you, when asked.  You're asleep, living in a dream.

Jeff-Relf.Me/TodaysBible.JPG

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#690049 — Re: Asleep, living in a dream.

FromSergio <invalid@invalid.com>
Date2018-06-11 14:22 -0500
SubjectRe: Asleep, living in a dream.
Message-ID<pfmi6e$1d5o$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#690027
On 6/11/2018 12:04 PM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
> You ( Ben ) told me:
>> Maybe you need to quote "GOD" to really "prove" your theories!
>> Nutjob.
> 
> Who's your God, and what's your theory ?
> 
> It's the Bible, right ?  if not, you haven't expressed it,
> nor can you, when asked.  You're asleep, living in a dream.
> 
> Jeff-Relf.Me/TodaysBible.JPG
> 

Choose Trump as your God.  He will be your Leader.

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#690088 — Re: Asleep, living in a dream.

Frombenj <benj@nobody.net>
Date2018-06-11 17:21 -0400
SubjectRe: Asleep, living in a dream.
Message-ID<jJBTC.220839$o43.75944@fx33.iad>
In reply to#690027
On 6/11/2018 1:04 PM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
> You ( Ben ) told me:
>> Maybe you need to quote "GOD" to really "prove" your theories!
>> Nutjob.
> 
> Who's your God, and what's your theory ?
> 
> It's the Bible, right ?  if not, you haven't expressed it,
> nor can you, when asked.  You're asleep, living in a dream.
> 
> Jeff-Relf.Me/TodaysBible.JPG
> 
I"ve told you time and again that "belief" has no place in science, yet 
you persist in your religious beliefs and encen worse life this fantasy 
life where you make uyp what other people believe so you can then use 
that fantasy to "prove" that your religion is correct ant theirs is 
"wrong". This is druoling lib, nonsense.

You have NO idea what I might or might not believe. All you clowns are 
alike in beating this strawman over and over.  Give it up Rolf.

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#690104 — Your house is built on sand.

FromJeff-Relf.Me @.
Date2018-06-11 14:43 -0700
SubjectYour house is built on sand.
Message-ID<Jeff-Relf.Me@Jun.11--2.43pm.Seattle.2018>
In reply to#690088
Looking in the mirror, you (Ben) wrote:
> You have NO idea what I might or might not believe.

Exactly, your house is built on sand.

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#689983 — Re: Putting words in Einstein's mouth.

Fromchrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid>
Date2018-06-11 07:02 -0500
SubjectRe: Putting words in Einstein's mouth.
Message-ID<2soshd5m7hhth6ihlvql1f21brp3ijhnoq@4ax.com>
In reply to#689815
vallor wrote:

> Jeff-Relf.Me wrote:
>>
>> It's _very_ annoying; ShitHeads, like you, are making me work hard.

Relf, you should be nice, to anyone who is willing to talk to you.

>Tut tut -- it must be really annoying when the "ShitHeads" turn out to be 
>right, eh?  Lul.

It's always been funny, when a troll like "Hadron" or "Ezekiel" would
call advocates "morons" or whatever.  Occasionally I would retort with
"So, you're saying that a 'moron' is able to hand you your ass, every
time you go up against him?"

-- 
'common sense and a balanced view of things have no place in the world
of COLA Linux "advocacy".'  -  Hadron Quark, lying shamelessly

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