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3 Hydrogen gas variants

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  3 Hydrogen gas variants Alan Folmsbee <omnilobe@gmail.com> - 2016-09-11 17:49 -0700
    Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-09-12 01:18 +0000
      Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-09-11 18:40 -0700
    Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-12 08:14 +0200
      Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-12 08:28 +0200
        Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-09-12 07:26 -0700
          Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-12 17:38 +0200
            Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-09-12 09:21 -0700
              Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-12 19:01 +0200
                Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-09-12 10:17 -0700
                  Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-12 19:19 +0200
                  Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-12 19:24 +0200
                    Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-09-12 10:50 -0700
                      Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-12 20:00 +0200
                      Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-09-12 18:29 +0000
                  Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-09-12 15:10 -0500
                    Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-09-13 09:07 +0200
                      Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 09:22 +0200
                        Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 09:25 +0200
                        Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-09-13 10:37 +0200
                          Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 18:27 +0200
                            Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-09-13 18:56 +0200
                              Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 21:03 +0200
                                Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-09-13 23:49 +0200
                                  Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 07:16 +0200
                                    Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 09:15 +0200
                                    Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-09-19 12:10 +0200
                                      Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-09-19 12:13 -0700
                                      Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-20 09:06 +0200
                                  Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 07:33 +0200
                                    Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 07:35 +0200
                                    Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-09-19 12:23 +0200
                                      Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants "Tim BandTech.com" <timgolden@bandtechnology.com> - 2016-09-19 08:05 -0700
                                        Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-09-19 18:41 +0200
                                          Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants "Tim BandTech.com" <timgolden@bandtechnology.com> - 2016-09-21 21:47 -0700
                                      Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-20 09:25 +0200
                                        Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-09-20 21:38 +0200
                                  Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 07:41 +0200
                        Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-09-13 14:35 +0000
                          Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 08:09 -0700
                            Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-09-13 15:50 +0000
                              Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 09:05 -0700
                Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 13:24 -0700
                  Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 10:59 +0200
                    Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 14:28 -0700
                      Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 07:08 +0200
                        Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 09:55 -0700
                          Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 19:12 +0200
                            Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 10:18 -0700
                              Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 19:29 +0200
                                Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 18:31 -0700
              Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-09-12 18:05 +0000
          Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-09-12 18:41 -0700
      Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-09-12 17:59 +0000
        Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-12 20:15 +0200
          Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-09-12 21:15 +0000
      Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Alan Folmsbee <omnilobe@gmail.com> - 2016-09-12 20:41 -0700
        Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 07:34 +0200
          Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 07:46 +0200
        Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 07:53 +0200
        Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 07:57 +0200
          Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 08:35 +0200
    Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants "Tim BandTech.com" <timgolden@bandtechnology.com> - 2016-09-17 11:07 -0700
      Re: 3 Hydrogen gas variants Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-17 21:55 +0200

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#596809

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>And tell me, again, how you know
>this is the same electron?

The physics and math wouldn't be able to come up with a predicted
frequency that happened to match the observed frequency if there
was some sort of complex electron exchange.

Where would the electron come from?  This is (very sparse) interstellar
gas clouds where atoms rarely encounter each other.

It is a property of (bound) electrons and photons that photons of the
correct frequency can change the states (n, l, m, s, where s is the
spin) of the electron, and that an electron can spontaneously move
into a lower energy state by giving off a photon of a certain frequency
corresponding to the energy difference.  This is what happens here,
there is a slight energy difference due to the differences in the
interaction of the spin-up and spin-down states with the spin of
the proton.

Since you are a visual thinker and used an example of a red car and a
blue car being different cars, may I suggest a different visual model.
How about a red chameleon and a blue chameleon? It's the same
chameleon, with a different property.

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#596811

Lightning?

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#596839

hey g00d l00king out;
I did not know that angular momentum was m. magmetic,
nor that it was projective

> energy
>     (the principal quantum number n=1,2,3,....)
> orbital angular momentum
>     (the angular quantum number l=0 .. n-1)
> projection of orbital angular momentum
>     ( the magnetic quantum number m=-l .. +1 )
> projection of spin angular momentum
>     ( the spin quantum number s= -1/2 or +1/2 )
> 
> If the H2 molecule is excited e.g. by UV radiation,
> so the electrons differ in one of the first 3 quantum numbers,
> they can have both the parallel and antiparallel spin.

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#596916

On 09/13/2016 10:24 PM, noTthaTguY wrote:
> hey g00d l00king out;
> I did not know that angular momentum was m. magmetic,
> nor that it was projective
>
>> energy
>>     (the principal quantum number n=1,2,3,....)
>> orbital angular momentum
>>     (the angular quantum number l=0 .. n-1)
>> projection of orbital angular momentum
>>     ( the magnetic quantum number m=-l .. +1 )
>> projection of spin angular momentum
>>     ( the spin quantum number s= -1/2 or +1/2 )
>>
>> If the H2 molecule is excited e.g. by UV radiation,
>> so the electrons differ in one of the first 3 quantum numbers,
>> they can have both the parallel and antiparallel spin.
>
Magnetic because of energy orbital splitting in magnetic field.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeeman_effect

It should not be surprice to you
that vectors have projections.

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#596975

Zeeman, yes.  it doesn't surprise me, but
I just don't do vectors (a.k.a quaternions

> It should not be surprice to you
> that vectors have projections.

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#597016

Dne 14/09/2016 v 23:28 noTthaTguY napsal(a):
> Zeeman, yes.  it doesn't surprise me, but
> I just don't do vectors (a.k.a quaternions
> 

You do, even if you say you do not.

-- 
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )
Knowledge makes great men humble, but small men arrogant.

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#597048

it is a nice problem, sums of three secondpowers ... sixth r00t thereof?

> You do, even if you say you do not.
> 
> -- 
> Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )
> Knowledge makes great men humble, but small men arrogant.

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#597054

Why ?
You do not say sum of 3 carpet areas
has dimension m^6, dont you ?

Dimension of a sum is the same as dimension of the sum terms.
Velocity vector vec_v has dimension [m/s]
Its projections v_x,v_y,v_z, aka vector components as well [m/s]
They squares(second powers) (v_x)^2, (v_y)^2, (v_y)^2
have dimension m^2/s^2

Their sum (v_x)^2+ (v_y)^2+ (v_y)^2  has dimension m^2/s^2
its square root = speed has dimension m/s.


On 09/15/2016 06:55 PM, noTthaTguY wrote:
> it is a nice problem, sums of three secondpowers ... sixth r00t thereof?
>
>> You do, even if you say you do not.
>>

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#597057

yes, the areal growth of the wavefront, c to the secondpower

> They squares(second powers) (v_x)^2, (v_y)^2, (v_y)^2
> have dimension m^2/s^2
> 
> Their sum (v_x)^2+ (v_y)^2+ (v_y)^2  has dimension m^2/s^2
> its square root = speed has dimension m/s.
> 
> 
> On 09/15/2016 06:55 PM, noTthaTguY wrote:
> > it is a nice problem, sums of three secondpowers ... sixth r00t thereof?
> >
> >> You do, even if you say you do not.
> >>

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#597061

It seems like your posts have random relation to the quoted..

BTW, it is good custom to start cutting at the quotes of higher levels,
not the post you are replying to.

On 09/15/2016 07:18 PM, noTthaTguY wrote:
> yes, the areal growth of the wavefront, c to the secondpower
>
>> They squares(second powers) (v_x)^2, (v_y)^2, (v_y)^2
>> have dimension m^2/s^2
>>
>> Their sum (v_x)^2+ (v_y)^2+ (v_y)^2  has dimension m^2/s^2
>> its square root = speed has dimension m/s.
>>
>>
>> On 09/15/2016 06:55 PM, noTthaTguY wrote:
>>> it is a nice problem, sums of three secondpowers ... sixth r00t thereof?
>>>
>>>> You do, even if you say you do not.
>>>>
>

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#597106

mod, of course, pi, and
using the diameter of the wavefront, not necessarily the radius;
pi is thirty-one tenths, for most purposes;
twenty-seven tenths is e, but
you can use three for both, in a pinch:

e^i*pi = minus one, becomes

3^3i = ...9999.0.  so, I wonder if
we can just divide by three, and miraculously prove that
the quantumfication of a third is, still, 0.3333...

> > yes, the areal growth of the wavefront, c to the secondpower
> >
> >> They squares(second powers) (v_x)^2, (v_y)^2, (v_y)^2
> >> have dimension m^2/s^2
> >>
> >> Their sum (v_x)^2+ (v_y)^2+ (v_y)^2  has dimension m^2/s^2
> >> its square root = speed has dimension m/s.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 09/15/2016 06:55 PM, noTthaTguY wrote:
> >>> it is a nice problem, sums of three secondpowers ... sixth r00t thereof?
> >>>
> >>>> You do, even if you say you do not.
> >>>>
> >

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#596687

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>The difference is permanent.

No, it is not.  An interaction with a photon can flip up/down of an electron.

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#596738

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 7:26:32 AM UTC-7, john wrote:
> There are TWO different electrons-
> the "up" and the "down",
> and they want very much to share
> the same pathway, whether it be
> molecular or atomic.
> This is what drives chemistry.
> You'll find one of each in a
> Cooper pair, a Hydrogen molecule,
> and an atomic bond.
> They are intrinsically opposite

  How can you say such blatantly false things in public?

  Ever heard of spin-flipping?


  Mark L. Fergerson

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#596685

Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dne 12/09/2016 v 02:49 Alan Folmsbee napsal(a):
> 
>> The three kinds for this essay are the hydrogen diatomic gas
>> H2, the hydrogen monatomic gas H, and the deuterium monatomic
>> gas D. I expect the deuterium to have a different chemistry than
>> H because D has a neutron. The physics are more detailed than
>> the chemistry science for this expectation.
> 
> Why not HD as well ?
> 
> Deuterium does not have different chemistry, as the behaviour
> of the electrons is the same. Just particular
> physical chemistry constants are shifted due its different mass.

Not quite:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium#Physical_properties


-- 
Jim Pennino

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#596688

On 09/12/2016 07:59 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dne 12/09/2016 v 02:49 Alan Folmsbee napsal(a):
>>
>>> The three kinds for this essay are the hydrogen diatomic gas
>>> H2, the hydrogen monatomic gas H, and the deuterium monatomic
>>> gas D. I expect the deuterium to have a different chemistry than
>>> H because D has a neutron. The physics are more detailed than
>>> the chemistry science for this expectation.
>>
>> Why not HD as well ?
>>
>> Deuterium does not have different chemistry, as the behaviour
>> of the electrons is the same. Just particular
>> physical chemistry constants are shifted due its different mass.
>
> Not quite:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium#Physical_properties
>
Be specific.

In other posts I mentioned that
effects not based on different H and D masses
are negligible compared to those based on it.

Sure, that is change in kernel spin,
but that has negligible effect on chemical properties.

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#596719

Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 09/12/2016 07:59 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>> Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Dne 12/09/2016 v 02:49 Alan Folmsbee napsal(a):
>>>
>>>> The three kinds for this essay are the hydrogen diatomic gas
>>>> H2, the hydrogen monatomic gas H, and the deuterium monatomic
>>>> gas D. I expect the deuterium to have a different chemistry than
>>>> H because D has a neutron. The physics are more detailed than
>>>> the chemistry science for this expectation.
>>>
>>> Why not HD as well ?
>>>
>>> Deuterium does not have different chemistry, as the behaviour
>>> of the electrons is the same. Just particular
>>> physical chemistry constants are shifted due its different mass.
>>
>> Not quite:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium#Physical_properties
>>
> Be specific.

No, I am not going to copy in a large article you could easily read.

Also: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Deuterium

Look at the Properties paragraph.


-- 
Jim Pennino

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#596769

On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 8:14:59 PM UTC-10, Poutnik Fornntp wrote:
> Dne 12/09/2016 v 02:49 Alan Folmsbee napsal(a):
> 
> > The three kinds for this essay are the hydrogen diatomic gas
> > H2, the hydrogen monatomic gas H, and the deuterium monatomic
> > gas D. I expect the deuterium to have a different chemistry than
> > H because D has a neutron. The physics are more detailed than
> > the chemistry science for this expectation.
> 
> Why not HD as well ?
> 
> Deuterium does not have different chemistry, as the behaviour
> of the electrons is the same. Just particular
> physical chemistry constants are shifted due its different mass.


Dear Poutnik,
There are some chemical differences between deuterium and hydrogen. If a person drinks heavy water as much as was done for liquids, the person dies. The van der Waals forces are different for deuterium. The spectrum is different. The bond length is different. It is plausible that D mass could cause all of those differences from H. But the more massive D is not always proven to be the real reason for the chemical difference, it is just plausible.

Most important in this thread is the monatomic D gas. There might be different electromagnetic dynamics in a plasma for D. But I have found no web references for that data. All other elements and isotopes are different from D. They all get 3D of Coulomb repulsion, but Deuterium is suspected of having 2D, two dimensions to repel protons. This may be wrong, but the data is missing to prove me wrong.

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#596777

Dne 13/09/2016 v 05:41 Alan Folmsbee napsal(a):
> 
> 
> Dear Poutnik,
> There are some chemical differences between deuterium and hydrogen.
> If a person drinks heavy water as much as was done for liquids,
> the person dies. The van der Waals forces are different for deuterium.
> The spectrum is different. The bond length is different. It is
> plausible that D mass could cause all of those differences from
> H. But the more massive D is not always proven to be the real
> reason for the chemical difference, it is just plausible.


As I have mentioned in other post, they are related
to the different mass and not different chemistry as such.

Effects not related to different mass are negligible in chemistry
context, but affects physical and equilibrium constants.

All reactions performed by 1H are performed by 2H as well and vice
versa, just with different speed and different equilibrium,
due different mass.

> 
> Most important in this thread is the monatomic D gas. There might
> be different electromagnetic dynamics in a plasma for D. But

As above.

> I have found no web references for that data. All other elements
> and isotopes are different from D. They all get 3D of Coulomb
> repulsion, but Deuterium is suspected of having 2D, two dimensions
> to repel protons. This may be wrong, but
> the data is missing to prove me wrong.
> 


-- 
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )
Knowledge makes great men humble, but small men arrogant.

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#596778

Dne 13/09/2016 v 07:34 Poutnik napsal(a):

> 
> Effects not related to different mass are negligible in chemistry
> context, but affects physical and equilibrium constants.

Errata>
Effects not related to different mass
are negligible in chemistry.

Both mass and non mass related effects do not affect chemistry itself
qualitatively, but affect quantitatively physical behaviour,
kinetic and thermodynamic constants.

-- 
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )
Knowledge makes great men humble, but small men arrogant.

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#596779

Dne 13/09/2016 v 05:41 Alan Folmsbee napsal(a):
> 
> Most important in this thread is the monatomic D gas. There might be different electromagnetic dynamics in a plasma for D. But I have found no web references for that data. All other elements and isotopes are different from D. They all get 3D of Coulomb repulsion, but Deuterium is suspected of having 2D, two dimensions to repel protons. This may be wrong, but the data is missing to prove me wrong.
> 
It is obvious that deutoron -proton repulsion is asymmetric,
but that is not a chemical phenomena.

I do not deny physical differences.

-- 
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )
Knowledge makes great men humble, but small men arrogant.

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