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97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS"

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  97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-02 15:13 +0000
    Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-02 23:34 +0800
      Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-02 16:57 +0000
      Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-10-03 10:33 +0000
        Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-10-03 15:36 +0200
          Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-03 16:07 +0000
            Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> - 2026-10-03 18:23 +0200
              Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-04 07:24 +0000
              Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> - 2026-10-04 11:37 -0700
                Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-05 18:04 +1100
            Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-10-03 19:03 +0200
              Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-04 07:24 +0000
          Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-03 17:16 +0000
            Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-04 02:17 +0800
              Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-04 05:24 +1100
                Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-04 02:29 +0800
                  Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-04 02:30 +0800
                    Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-04 16:39 +1100
              Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2026-10-03 16:15 -0500
              Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-04 07:28 +0000
      Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-04 02:10 -0700
        Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-04 11:38 +0000
          Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-05 01:51 +0800
            Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-10-04 18:02 +0000
              Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-05 02:10 +0800
                Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-10-04 18:27 +0000
              Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-04 11:18 -0700
                Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-05 02:29 +0800
                  Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-10-04 18:43 +0000
                    Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-05 10:07 -0700
                      Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-06 04:41 +0800
            Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-04 13:13 -0700
              Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-05 06:39 +0000
                Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-05 10:19 -0700
                  Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-06 06:08 +0000
                    Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-05 23:42 -0700
                      Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-06 07:17 +0000
                        Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-06 00:36 -0700
                          Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-06 14:07 +0000
                            Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2026-10-06 08:13 -0700
                            Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-06 10:22 -0700
                              Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-06 10:52 -0700
                          Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2026-10-06 07:33 -0700
                            Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-06 10:10 -0700
                              Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-06 17:42 +0000
                                Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2026-10-06 19:46 -0700
                                  Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-07 07:31 +0000
                                Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-06 21:53 -0700
                            Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> - 2026-10-06 23:17 -0700
    Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-03 01:46 +1000
      Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> - 2026-10-02 10:37 -0700
        Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-03 16:03 +1000
          Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> - 2026-10-03 00:08 -0700
            Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-04 03:51 +1100
    Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-10-02 19:31 +0200
      Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-03 06:50 +0000
        Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-04 05:15 +1100
          Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-04 02:25 +0800
            Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-04 02:46 -0700
              Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-04 19:56 +0800
                Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-04 13:22 -0700
                Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-05 19:33 -0700
                  Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-06 12:05 +0800
                    Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-06 16:28 +1100
                    Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-06 00:16 -0700
                  Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-06 16:22 +1100
                    Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-06 00:07 -0700
                      Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-06 23:26 +1100
                        Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-06 10:38 -0700
                  Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-06 09:28 +0000
                    Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-06 23:34 +1100
    Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Someone <864c855e3d64399dc06fa30ebb75526c2c2e73db7216b16a3d4cf03e8a52ec3b@example.com> - 2026-10-02 18:45 +0000
    Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-03 08:56 +0000
      Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-04 03:57 +1100
        Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-03 10:21 -0700
          Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-04 05:00 +1100
            Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-03 14:02 -0700
              Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-04 16:25 +1100
                Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-04 10:13 -0700
                  Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-05 17:24 +1100
                    Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-05 09:07 -0700
                      Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-05 10:16 -0700
                        Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-06 17:39 +1100
                          Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-06 08:05 -0700
                      Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> - 2026-10-05 20:05 +0200
                        Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> - 2026-10-05 20:18 +0200
                        Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-05 12:50 -0700
                          Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-06 17:46 +1100
                            Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-06 08:07 -0700
                      Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-06 17:28 +1100
                        Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-06 08:17 -0700

Page 3 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 5  Next page →

#897164

Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
> >Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote:
> >>Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
> >>Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote:
> >> >Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world
> >> >> some use sonar.
> >> >
> >> >Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine
> >> >their location by sonar?
> >> >
> >> >Good luck with that.
> >> 
> >>  Those who not want to see are effectively blind
> >> 
> >> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost.
> >>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar
> >>  https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works
> >
> >
> >So where do they say whales can determine their location
> >by sonar?
> >
> >"Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind."
> 
> That is bullshit

Nope.  Absolutely true.  You can't determine location
from compass alone or sonar alone.  Which was your
original claim, and that a reptile brain compass is just
like GPS.  It's not, as has been pointed out to you by a
few people now.


> I can see things on teefee all the time that are not written.

So TV is your source for technical data.  We should have
known!


> Inventions come from being able to see what is not written yet.

Strawmen also come from beint able to see what was not
written!  And, you just invented a strawman!
How bout that?

(snip wailing & gnashing of teeth)

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#897167

On Tue, 06 Oct 2026 10:22:58 -0700, Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> wrote:

>Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>> >Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote:
>> >>Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>> >>Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote:
>> >> >Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world
>> >> >> some use sonar.
>> >> >
>> >> >Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine
>> >> >their location by sonar?
>> >> >
>> >> >Good luck with that.
>> >> 
>> >>  Those who not want to see are effectively blind
>> >> 
>> >> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost.
>> >>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar
>> >>  https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works
>> >
>> >
>> >So where do they say whales can determine their location
>> >by sonar?
>> >
>> >"Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind."
>> 
>> That is bullshit
>
>Nope.  Absolutely true.  You can't determine location
>from compass alone or sonar alone.  Which was your
>original claim, and that a reptile brain compass is just
>like GPS.  It's not, as has been pointed out to you by a
>few people now.
>

Some drones navigate with optical or radar topological mapping. Whales
could do that too, with sonar.

They could combine that with other clues, like temperature and
salinity and taste and mag fields. Salmon are pretty good at finding
the pool where they were born.


>
>> I can see things on teefee all the time that are not written.
>
>So TV is your source for technical data.  We should have
>known!
>
>
>> Inventions come from being able to see what is not written yet.
>
>Strawmen also come from beint able to see what was not
>written!  And, you just invented a strawman!
>How bout that?
>
>(snip wailing & gnashing of teeth)

Be nice.

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#897158

In sci.physics Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> wrote:
> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>>Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote:
>> >Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world
>> >> some use sonar.
>> >
>> >Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine
>> >their location by sonar?
>> >
>> >Good luck with that.
>> 
>>  Those who not want to see are effectively blind
>> 
>> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost.
>>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar
>>  https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works
> 
> 
> So where do they say whales can determine their location
> by sonar?
> 
> "Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind."

It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a
compass.

Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of
you.

A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic
field.

To determine a location you also geographic data, i.e. a map of some
sort.

-- 
penninojim@yahoo.com

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#897163

Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
> In sci.physics Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> wrote:
> > Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
> >>Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote:
> >> >Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world
> >> >> some use sonar.
> >> >
> >> >Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine
> >> >their location by sonar?
> >> >
> >> >Good luck with that.
> >> 
> >>  Those who not want to see are effectively blind
> >> 
> >> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost.
> >>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar
> >>  https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works
> > 
> > 
> > So where do they say whales can determine their location
> > by sonar?
> > 
> > "Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind."
> 
> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a
> compass.
> 
> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of
> you.
> 
> A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic
> field.
> 
> To determine a location you also geographic data, i.e. a map of some
> sort.


Succinct and well said.

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#897166

>Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote:
>>Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>> In sci.physics Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> wrote:
>> > Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>> >>Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote:
>> >> >Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world
>> >> >> some use sonar.
>> >> >
>> >> >Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine
>> >> >their location by sonar?
>> >> >
>> >> >Good luck with that.
>> >> 
>> >>  Those who not want to see are effectively blind
>> >> 
>> >> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost.
>> >>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar
>> >>  https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works
>> > 
>> > 
>> > So where do they say whales can determine their location
>> > by sonar?
>> > 
>> > "Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind."
>> 
>> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a
>> compass.

You really have no clue and never even used those things or designed those things



 
>> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of
>> you.


Even in the simplest case, say in a sea or lake
looking left distance 1 
looking right distance 2
looking forward distance 3
Looking backward distance 4
Looking down for how far from sea floor,
looking up for depth

 --------
|        |
|  U     |
|        |
|        |
 --------

Now by 'looking around' you know exactly where you are relative to the coastlines.
 https://techdiy.info/cursor-en/how-far-can-sonar-detect/
300 miles range
600 miles between coastlines / islands / seafloor terrain.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=can+sonar+from+a+depth+measure+the+sea+surface+distance
Search Assist
 Sonar can measure the distance from a depth sensor to the sea surface by
 pointing an upward-looking transducer upward and timing the echo return.

Normally I would reply with: For 10 US dollies I will say you are right,
for 15 I will say it twice, give you a discount.

But REALLY get a clue

 

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#897170

In sci.physics Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>>Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote:
>>>Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>>> In sci.physics Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> wrote:
>>> > Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>>> >>Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote:
>>> >> >Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world
>>> >> >> some use sonar.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine
>>> >> >their location by sonar?
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Good luck with that.
>>> >> 
>>> >>  Those who not want to see are effectively blind
>>> >> 
>>> >> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost.
>>> >>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar
>>> >>  https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > So where do they say whales can determine their location
>>> > by sonar?
>>> > 
>>> > "Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind."
>>> 
>>> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a
>>> compass.
> 
> You really have no clue and never even used those things or designed those things
> 

Actually I am a pilot and use those things on a regular basis.

> 
>  
>>> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of
>>> you.
> 
> 
> Even in the simplest case, say in a sea or lake
> looking left distance 1 
> looking right distance 2
> looking forward distance 3
> Looking backward distance 4
> Looking down for how far from sea floor,
> looking up for depth
> 
>  --------
> |        |
> |  U     |
> |        |
> |        |
>  --------
> 
> Now by 'looking around' you know exactly where you are relative to the coastlines.

And tells you nothing about where you are on the Earth.

>  https://techdiy.info/cursor-en/how-far-can-sonar-detect/
> 300 miles range
> 600 miles between coastlines / islands / seafloor terrain.
> 
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=can+sonar+from+a+depth+measure+the+sea+surface+distance
> Search Assist
>  Sonar can measure the distance from a depth sensor to the sea surface by
>  pointing an upward-looking transducer upward and timing the echo return.
 

And tells you nothing about where you are on the Earth.

> Normally I would reply with: For 10 US dollies I will say you are right,
> for 15 I will say it twice, give you a discount.
> 
> But REALLY get a clue
> 
>  

-- 
penninojim@yahoo.com

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#897174

>Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>wrote:
>>In sci.physics Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>>>Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote:
>>>>Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
>>>> In sci.physics Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> wrote:
>>>> > Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote:
>>>> >> >Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> >> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world
>>>> >> >> some use sonar.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine
>>>> >> >their location by sonar?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >Good luck with that.
>>>> >> 
>>>> >>  Those who not want to see are effectively blind
>>>> >> 
>>>> >> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost.
>>>> >>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar
>>>> >>  https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works
>>>> > 
>>>> > 
>>>> > So where do they say whales can determine their location
>>>> > by sonar?
>>>> > 
>>>> > "Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind."
>>>> 
>>>> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a
>>>> compass.
>> 
>> You really have no clue and never even used those things or designed those things
>> 
>
>Actually I am a pilot and use those things on a regular basis.
>
>> 
>>  
>>>> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of
>>>> you.

Pilot?
Old situation, lost, no GPS, no clue
listen with directional antenna for 2 known radio stations
Get the angle between those,
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_navigation
In The Same Way you can listen to ultrasound transmissions underwater 
to determine you position relative to it.

And bats (the animals that YouAsh press-incident tramp had Faulty use to kill millions with COVID)
even locate and catch small moving insects using ultrasound for navigation.
All in 3D and all in motion.
They can find their home too, and communicate with each other using that same ultrasound.

Every 'location' has it own ultrasound 'sound' (spectrum),
like you can hear with normal ears the sound of waves crashing on a beach.
The brain (located for humans between the 2 ears) have this thing called 'memory'
that creates a map of where you were, communication and DNA also passes it on the the next generation of animals 
so they 'naturally', know where to go
Small; fish, whales, what not.

There is a lot more to it.

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#897172

Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
> >Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote:
> >>Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote:
> >> In sci.physics Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> wrote:
> >> > Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
> >> >>Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote:
> >> >> >Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world
> >> >> >> some use sonar.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine
> >> >> >their location by sonar?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Good luck with that.
> >> >> 
> >> >>  Those who not want to see are effectively blind
> >> >> 
> >> >> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost.
> >> >>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar
> >> >>  https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > So where do they say whales can determine their location
> >> > by sonar?
> >> > 
> >> > "Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind."
> >> 
> >> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a
> >> compass.
> 
> You really have no clue and never even used those things or designed those things

So you're admitting you were wrong, and that sonar alone
can't tell you your location.

You also seem to be claiming you've used sonar and radar,
or you have designed them.  Please do tell us about the
experience!  Sharing your wisdom would be way better than
hurling random insults.


> >> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of
> >> you.
> 
> Even in the simplest case, say in a sea or lake
> looking left distance 1 
> looking right distance 2
> looking forward distance 3
> Looking backward distance 4
> Looking down for how far from sea floor,
> looking up for depth
> 
>  --------
> |        |
> |  U     |
> |        |
> |        |
>  --------

What is this supposed to be?  Are you operating sonar in
a swimming pool? a rectangular lake with walls?  Are you
using directional sonar?  Is it 3d sonar?  Do whales have
directional sonar?  What does a "coastline echo" even
look like?  Do you have to surface the submarine and look
through binoculars to see if there's a coastline?

How do you tell your location on Earth from all this?


> Now by 'looking around' you know exactly where you are relative to the coastlines.
>  https://techdiy.info/cursor-en/how-far-can-sonar-detect/
> 300 miles range
> 600 miles between coastlines / islands / seafloor terrain.

No.

Your reference says a sonar ping can travel up to 300
miles.  It doesn't say you can get an echo return from
300 miles away.  Besides it would take over 10 minutes
for the echo to return.

It says nothing at all about coastline or 600 miles.
Where are you getting this from?

"Several miles" is a better estimate of sonar range,
probably less for directional sonar.


> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=can+sonar+from+a+depth+measure+the+sea+surface+distance
> Search Assist
>  Sonar can measure the distance from a depth sensor to the sea surface by
>  pointing an upward-looking transducer upward and timing the echo return.

Wow!  You can use sonar to tell how deep you are!
Goodbye, simple pressure sensor!

> Normally I would reply with: For 10 US dollies I will say you are right,
> for 15 I will say it twice, give you a discount.

Or, I could just be right for free, and spare my dollies
the indignity.


> 
> But REALLY get a clue

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#897173

On 10/6/26 07:33, Jim Pennino wrote:

> ... 
> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a
> compass.
> 
> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of
> you.

Sonar can do far better than that.

<https://news.yale.edu/1997/09/17/yale-university-sonar-robot-can-tell-heads-tails-modeled-after-bat-and-dolphin-echolocati>

> 
> A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic
> field.

A pilot should know the difference between heading and bearing.
A "bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic field" doesn't even make sense.

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#897062

On 3/10/2026 1:13 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> From:
>   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2026/09/260930020329.htm
> 
> 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS"
> Date:
> October 2, 2026
>   Source:
> University of Cambridge
> Summary:
>   Mysterious 97-million-year-old magnetic fossils may be the oldest evidence of
>   an animal using Earth's magnetic field like a built-in GPS.
>   Their sophisticated magnetic structure could have helped an unknown ocean
>   creature navigate thousands of kilometers with surprising precision.

We've known about animals sensing the earth's magnetic field and using 
it for navigation for many years now. but the one thing we do know for 
sure is that this hasn't got anything to do with our global position 
system, which relies on remarkably precises clocks in orbit around the 
earth which transmit very precise time signals at microwave frequencies.

You've got to be able to receive signals from at least four satellites 
at the same time to be able to work out where you (and you can do it 
pretty precisely).

The earth's magnetic field drifts around quite a bit, and reverses from 
time to time, more of less randomly - there have been at least 183 
reversals over the last 83 million years (which averages out to one 
every 450,000 years, but the most recent one was 780.000 years ago).

Sensing the earth's magnetic field is a useful trick, but it's a lot 
less than a navigation system. Ships have had compasses for quite while 
now, but nobody call them a "global positioning system".

-- 
Bill Sloman, Sydney

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#897067

On 10/2/26 08:46, Bill Sloman wrote:
> On 3/10/2026 1:13 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> From:
>>   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2026/09/260930020329.htm
>>
>> 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS"
>> Date:
>> October 2, 2026
>>   Source:
>> University of Cambridge
>> Summary:
>>   Mysterious 97-million-year-old magnetic fossils may be the oldest 
>> evidence of
>>   an animal using Earth's magnetic field like a built-in GPS.
>>   Their sophisticated magnetic structure could have helped an unknown 
>> ocean
>>   creature navigate thousands of kilometers with surprising precision.
> 
> We've known about animals sensing the earth's magnetic field and using 
> it for navigation for many years now. but the one thing we do know for 
> sure is that this hasn't got anything to do with our global position 
> system, which relies on remarkably precises clocks in orbit around the 
> earth which transmit very precise time signals at microwave frequencies.
> 
> You've got to be able to receive signals from at least four satellites 
> at the same time to be able to work out where you (and you can do it 
> pretty precisely).

Well, you gave us an incomplete sentence, "...to be able to work out 
where you..." so nobody can be sure what you're talking about.

Four satellites needed for navigation, three satellites for position.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

GPS requires four or more satellites to be visible for accurate navigation.

There are marked performance benefits to the user carrying a clock 
synchronized with the satellites. Foremost is that only three satellites 
are needed to compute a position solution.

Although four satellites are required for normal operation, fewer apply 
in special cases. If one variable is already known, a receiver can 
determine its position using only three satellites. For example, a ship 
on the open ocean usually has a known elevation close to 0 m, and the 
elevation of an aircraft may be known.
> 
> The earth's magnetic field drifts around quite a bit, and reverses from 
> time to time, more of less randomly - there have been at least 183 
> reversals over the last 83 million years (which averages out to one 
> every 450,000 years, but the most recent one was 780.000 years ago).
> 
> Sensing the earth's magnetic field is a useful trick, but it's a lot 
> less than a navigation system. Ships have had compasses for quite while 
> now, but nobody call them a "global positioning system".

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#897072

On 3/10/2026 3:37 am, Old McDonald wrote:
> On 10/2/26 08:46, Bill Sloman wrote:
>> On 3/10/2026 1:13 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> From:
>>>   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2026/09/260930020329.htm
>>>
>>> 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS"
>>> Date:
>>> October 2, 2026
>>>   Source:
>>> University of Cambridge
>>> Summary:
>>>   Mysterious 97-million-year-old magnetic fossils may be the oldest 
>>> evidence of
>>>   an animal using Earth's magnetic field like a built-in GPS.
>>>   Their sophisticated magnetic structure could have helped an unknown 
>>> ocean
>>>   creature navigate thousands of kilometers with surprising precision.
>>
>> We've known about animals sensing the earth's magnetic field and using 
>> it for navigation for many years now. but the one thing we do know for 
>> sure is that this hasn't got anything to do with our global position 
>> system, which relies on remarkably precises clocks in orbit around the 
>> earth which transmit very precise time signals at microwave frequencies.
>>
>> You've got to be able to receive signals from at least four satellites 
>> at the same time to be able to work out where you are (and you can do it 
>> pretty precisely).
> 
> Well, you gave us an incomplete sentence, "...to be able to work out 
> where you..." so nobody can be sure what you're talking about.

It's called a "typo". Somebody as stupid as you seem to be might have 
been left in some doubt about what I meant.

> Four satellites needed for navigation, three satellites for position.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System
> 
> GPS requires four or more satellites to be visible for accurate navigation.
> 
> There are marked performance benefits to the user carrying a clock 
> synchronized with the satellites. Foremost is that only three satellites 
> are needed to compute a position solution.
> 
> Although four satellites are required for normal operation, fewer apply 
> in special cases. If one variable is already known, a receiver can 
> determine its position using only three satellites. For example, a ship 
> on the open ocean usually has a known elevation close to 0 m, and the 
> elevation of an aircraft may be known.

So what.

>> The earth's magnetic field drifts around quite a bit, and reverses 
>> from time to time, more of less randomly - there have been at least 
>> 183 reversals over the last 83 million years (which averages out to 
>> one every 450,000 years, but the most recent one was 780.000 years ago).
>>
>> Sensing the earth's magnetic field is a useful trick, but it's a lot 
>> less than a navigation system. Ships have had compasses for quite 
>> while now, but nobody call them a "global positioning system".

-- 
Bill Sloman. Sydney

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#897074

On 10/2/26 23:03, Bill Sloman wrote:
> On 3/10/2026 3:37 am, Old McDonald wrote:
>> On 10/2/26 08:46, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>> On 3/10/2026 1:13 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> From:
>>>>   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2026/09/260930020329.htm
>>>>
>>>> 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS"
>>>> Date:
>>>> October 2, 2026
>>>>   Source:
>>>> University of Cambridge
>>>> Summary:
>>>>   Mysterious 97-million-year-old magnetic fossils may be the oldest 
>>>> evidence of
>>>>   an animal using Earth's magnetic field like a built-in GPS.
>>>>   Their sophisticated magnetic structure could have helped an 
>>>> unknown ocean
>>>>   creature navigate thousands of kilometers with surprising precision.
>>>
>>> We've known about animals sensing the earth's magnetic field and 
>>> using it for navigation for many years now. but the one thing we do 
>>> know for sure is that this hasn't got anything to do with our global 
>>> position system, which relies on remarkably precises clocks in orbit 
>>> around the earth which transmit very precise time signals at 
>>> microwave frequencies.
>>>
>>> You've got to be able to receive signals from at least four 
>>> satellites at the same time 
>>> to be able to work out where you are
                                              ^^^
>> (and you can do it pretty precisely).
>> Well, you gave us an incomplete sentence, "...to be able to work out 
>> where you..." so nobody can be sure what you're talking about.
> 
> It's called a "typo". Somebody as stupid as you seem to be might have 
> been left in some doubt about what I meant.

Oh look, you went back and snuck "are" into the already quoted material!

>> Four satellites needed for navigation, three satellites for position.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System
>>
>> GPS requires four or more satellites to be visible for accurate 
>> navigation.
>>
>> There are marked performance benefits to the user carrying a clock 
>> synchronized with the satellites. Foremost is that only three 
>> satellites are needed to compute a position solution.
>>
>> Although four satellites are required for normal operation, fewer 
>> apply in special cases. If one variable is already known, a receiver 
>> can determine its position using only three satellites. For example, a 
>> ship on the open ocean usually has a known elevation close to 0 m, and 
>> the elevation of an aircraft may be known.
> 
> So what.

It's a major difference. That's so what.

Each satellite puts you somewhere on the surface of a sphere.
Adding satellites whittles that down to a circle, two points, one point. 
Earth is a sphere, and when you're pretty sure you're on it, you can 
lose the fourth satellite.

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#897085

On 3/10/2026 5:08 pm, Old McDonald wrote:
> On 10/2/26 23:03, Bill Sloman wrote:
>> On 3/10/2026 3:37 am, Old McDonald wrote:
>>> On 10/2/26 08:46, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>> On 3/10/2026 1:13 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>> From:
>>>>>   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2026/09/260930020329.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS"
>>>>> Date:
>>>>> October 2, 2026
>>>>>   Source:
>>>>> University of Cambridge
>>>>> Summary:
>>>>>   Mysterious 97-million-year-old magnetic fossils may be the oldest 
>>>>> evidence of
>>>>>   an animal using Earth's magnetic field like a built-in GPS.
>>>>>   Their sophisticated magnetic structure could have helped an 
>>>>> unknown ocean
>>>>>   creature navigate thousands of kilometers with surprising precision.
>>>>
>>>> We've known about animals sensing the earth's magnetic field and 
>>>> using it for navigation for many years now. but the one thing we do 
>>>> know for sure is that this hasn't got anything to do with our global 
>>>> position system, which relies on remarkably precises clocks in orbit 
>>>> around the earth which transmit very precise time signals at 
>>>> microwave frequencies.
>>>>
>>>> You've got to be able to receive signals from at least four 
>>>> satellites at the same time to be able to work out where you are
>                                               ^^^
>>> (and you can do it pretty precisely).
>>> Well, you gave us an incomplete sentence, "...to be able to work out 
>>> where you..." so nobody can be sure what you're talking about.
>>
>> It's called a "typo". Somebody as stupid as you seem to be might have 
>> been left in some doubt about what I meant.
> 
> Oh look, you went back and snuck "are" into the already quoted material!

I'm supposed to leave a typo uncorrected?

>>> Four satellites needed for navigation, three satellites for position.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System
>>>
>>> GPS requires four or more satellites to be visible for accurate 
>>> navigation.
>>>
>>> There are marked performance benefits to the user carrying a clock 
>>> synchronized with the satellites. Foremost is that only three 
>>> satellites are needed to compute a position solution.
>>>
>>> Although four satellites are required for normal operation, fewer 
>>> apply in special cases. If one variable is already known, a receiver 
>>> can determine its position using only three satellites. For example, 
>>> a ship on the open ocean usually has a known elevation close to 0 m, 
>>> and the elevation of an aircraft may be known.
>>
>> So what.
> 
> It's a major difference. That's so what.

Your idea of a major difference is anything you can carp about.

In reality you GPS (and mine) looks for as many satellite as it can see, 
and picks the four best to calculate your position.

-- 
Bill Sloman, Sydney

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#897066

On 10/2/26 17:13, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> From:
>   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2026/09/260930020329.htm
> 
> 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS"
> Date:
> October 2, 2026
>   Source:
> University of Cambridge
> Summary:
>   Mysterious 97-million-year-old magnetic fossils may be the oldest evidence of
>   an animal using Earth's magnetic field like a built-in GPS.
>   Their sophisticated magnetic structure could have helped an unknown ocean
>   creature navigate thousands of kilometers with surprising precision.
> 
> 

A bit of magnetite in an appropriate place in a fossil /may/ be
indicative of a magnetically sensitive organ, true. The remainder
is pure conjecture. "Built-in GPS" and "Surprising precision",
sheesh, talk about hyperbole.

Jeroen Belleman

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#897073

>Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please>wrote:
>>On 10/2/26 17:13, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> From:
>>   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2026/09/260930020329.htm
>> 
>> 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS"
>> Date:
>> October 2, 2026
>>   Source:
>> University of Cambridge
>> Summary:
>>   Mysterious 97-million-year-old magnetic fossils may be the oldest evidence of
>>   an animal using Earth's magnetic field like a built-in GPS.
>>   Their sophisticated magnetic structure could have helped an unknown ocean
>>   creature navigate thousands of kilometers with surprising precision.
>> 
>> 
>
>A bit of magnetite in an appropriate place in a fossil /may/ be
>indicative of a magnetically sensitive organ, true. The remainder
>is pure conjecture. "Built-in GPS" and "Surprising precision",
>sheesh, talk about hyperbole.

You mean like AI?

Do not underestimate what nature already 'designed' 
maybe nature has us using your (CERN's) undiscovered particles and physics too.
Very likely it does, as it is what creates us.

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#897091

On 3/10/2026 4:50 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please>wrote:
>>> On 10/2/26 17:13, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> From:
>>>    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2026/09/260930020329.htm
>>>
>>> 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS"
>>> Date:
>>> October 2, 2026
>>>    Source:
>>> University of Cambridge
>>> Summary:
>>>    Mysterious 97-million-year-old magnetic fossils may be the oldest evidence of
>>>    an animal using Earth's magnetic field like a built-in GPS.
>>>    Their sophisticated magnetic structure could have helped an unknown ocean
>>>    creature navigate thousands of kilometers with surprising precision.
>>
>> A bit of magnetite in an appropriate place in a fossil /may/ be
>> indicative of a magnetically sensitive organ, true. The remainder
>> is pure conjecture. "Built-in GPS" and "Surprising precision",
>> sheesh, talk about hyperbole.
> 
> You mean like AI?

Probably not - artificial intelligence isn't hyperbolic.

> Do not underestimate what nature already 'designed'
> maybe nature has us using your (CERN's) undiscovered particles and physics too.

Nature evolves stuff. It doesn't design it

> Very likely it does, as it is what creates us.

Nature may well have created us - it would be rude to any imagined 
creator to blame them for the design flaws that you get when you evolve 
a design without thinking about what you are doing.

At the moment Darwinian evolution is the best explanation we've got for 
the state of the natural world. Creationism is a incomplete - you've got 
to explain where the creator came from.

-- 
Bill Sloman, Sydney

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#897094

On 10/4/2026 2:15 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
> Nature may well have created us - it would be rude to any imagined 
> creator to blame them for the design flaws that you get when you evolve 
> a design without thinking about what you are doing.
> 
> At the moment Darwinian evolution is the best explanation we've got for 
> the state of the natural world. Creationism is a incomplete - you've got 
> to explain where the creator came from.

Well, so is Darwinism.  We don't have to explain where Darwin comes
from -- or do we? -- but we don't have an origin point for the /seed of
life/ on this planet.

And for that matter, it seems to me we are looking at two or three,
maybe more, independent origin of some of the single cell organisms.
But that's just me thinking independently, it's not like I'm writing
a scientific paper on the subject, so you can dismiss that idea and
thump some paper if you prefer.

And while on the subject of life forms, what's with bipedal humanoids?
Shouldn't there be more?  I mean, convergent evolution is a thing,
right?  We have all these various branches of animals with four legs.


So why don't we have more with two?  What's up with that?  Do you have
an explanation for that in Darwinism?
-- 
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com
https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;
Federated at https://fed.brid.gy/bsky/myrkraverk.bsky.social

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#897108

Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid>
wrote:

> On 10/4/2026 2:15 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
> > Nature may well have created us - it would be rude to any imagined 
> > creator to blame them for the design flaws that you get when you evolve 
> > a design without thinking about what you are doing.
> > 
> > At the moment Darwinian evolution is the best explanation we've got for 
> > the state of the natural world. Creationism is a incomplete - you've got 
> > to explain where the creator came from.
> 
> Well, so is Darwinism.  We don't have to explain where Darwin comes
> from -- or do we? -- but we don't have an origin point for the /seed of
> life/ on this planet.
> 
> And for that matter, it seems to me we are looking at two or three,
> maybe more, independent origin of some of the single cell organisms.
> But that's just me thinking independently, it's not like I'm writing
> a scientific paper on the subject, so you can dismiss that idea and
> thump some paper if you prefer.
> 
> And while on the subject of life forms, what's with bipedal humanoids?
> Shouldn't there be more?  I mean, convergent evolution is a thing,
> right?  We have all these various branches of animals with four legs.
> 
> 
> So why don't we have more with two?  What's up with that?  Do you have
> an explanation for that in Darwinism?


All birds, T. Rex, velociraptors, kangaroos, Bigfoot...

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#897110

On 10/4/2026 5:46 PM, Jeremiah Jones wrote:
> Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid>
> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/4/2026 2:15 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>> Nature may well have created us - it would be rude to any imagined
>>> creator to blame them for the design flaws that you get when you evolve
>>> a design without thinking about what you are doing.
>>>
>>> At the moment Darwinian evolution is the best explanation we've got for
>>> the state of the natural world. Creationism is a incomplete - you've got
>>> to explain where the creator came from.
>>
>> Well, so is Darwinism.  We don't have to explain where Darwin comes
>> from -- or do we? -- but we don't have an origin point for the /seed of
>> life/ on this planet.
>>
>> And for that matter, it seems to me we are looking at two or three,
>> maybe more, independent origin of some of the single cell organisms.
>> But that's just me thinking independently, it's not like I'm writing
>> a scientific paper on the subject, so you can dismiss that idea and
>> thump some paper if you prefer.
>>
>> And while on the subject of life forms, what's with bipedal humanoids?
>> Shouldn't there be more?  I mean, convergent evolution is a thing,
>> right?  We have all these various branches of animals with four legs.
>>
>>
>> So why don't we have more with two?  What's up with that?  Do you have
>> an explanation for that in Darwinism?
> 
> 
> All birds, T. Rex, velociraptors, kangaroos, Bigfoot...

Well, T. Rex is famous for -- relatively -- small hands, I'm not sure
about velociraptors as I've never met one, and I don't know if we call
them hands on kangaroos.  Bigfoot I've also never met so cannot comment.

Still, this seems rather few, in terms of all the species this planet
has to offer.  Consider the multitude of birds, none of which have
hands, and all the various quadrupeds [1].


Really, shouldn't there be more bipedal humanoids if that's the pinnacle
of evolution?  I mean, life forms are /meant/ -- according to Darwinism
-- to converge on the most efficient form for survival, and if we are
the pinnacle of evolution, why aren't there more humanoids?  Where is
the competition?


[1] I did have to look up the speling of this word; I hope you'll for-
give me.
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