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Groups > sci.physics > #509512 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-07-25 20:23 -0600 |
| Last post | 2015-08-03 09:34 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 93 — 17 participants |
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Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-07-25 20:23 -0600
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-07-26 15:40 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System wobbly <wobbly@dont-email.me> - 2015-07-28 22:14 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-07-26 23:20 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2015-07-26 23:46 -0500
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2015-07-26 23:44 -0500
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-07-27 22:52 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-07-28 16:41 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-01 12:32 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-02 15:51 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-02 20:29 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 01:12 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-03 00:07 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-03 12:17 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 09:36 -0700
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 19:00 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Bohuš Matuška <bohu@paranetnet.net> - 2015-08-03 18:01 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 20:31 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Bohuš Matuška <bohu@paranetnet.net> - 2015-08-03 19:28 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-03 18:01 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-03 14:52 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 23:00 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-06 10:36 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 07:58 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 08:35 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-07 10:13 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 00:26 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-07 22:25 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 07:14 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-08 05:44 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Emmerich Schultheiß <emme@noemail.thx> - 2015-08-08 13:23 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-08 10:16 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-08 10:34 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 10:47 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-09 17:09 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Emmerich Schultheiß <emme@noemail.thx> - 2015-08-09 17:24 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-09 17:56 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 20:05 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-09 18:44 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Emmerich Schultheiß <emme@noemail.thx> - 2015-08-09 19:08 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 10:49 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 19:53 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-09 18:47 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-09 17:52 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 00:07 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-09 22:33 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> - 2015-08-09 22:55 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> - 2015-08-09 22:58 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 10:54 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-10 17:38 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> - 2015-08-10 18:07 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 01:11 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-10 23:28 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-09 20:43 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 10:55 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 11:01 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-10 09:32 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-10 17:42 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-11 11:38 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 23:00 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-11 22:27 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-11 22:12 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-08-12 23:32 -0500
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 07:32 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 07:30 -0500
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Mahipal <mahipal7638@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 05:50 -0700
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> - 2015-08-13 13:11 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 08:23 -0500
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> - 2015-08-13 13:28 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 15:20 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> - 2015-08-13 13:22 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 07:24 -0500
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 15:10 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Felipe Delgado <fd@spreadspectrum.org> - 2015-08-13 13:15 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 15:21 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-13 16:26 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 16:35 -0500
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-13 21:52 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-14 07:42 -0500
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-14 14:04 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System dsr@mail.lns.cornell.edu (Daniel S. Riley) - 2015-08-13 12:27 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-11 22:20 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 11:39 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 12:42 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-11 14:40 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 22:35 +0200
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Jackpol11@hotmail.com - 2015-08-12 21:56 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-03 17:57 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-07-30 11:03 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-08-04 03:10 -0400
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-08-04 17:24 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System wobbly <wobbly@dont-email.me> - 2015-07-28 22:01 +0000
Re: Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 09:34 -0700
Page 1 of 5 [1] 2 3 4 5 Next page →
| From | Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-25 20:23 -0600 |
| Subject | Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System |
| Message-ID | <FIWdnTJPWbk32SnInZ2dnUVZ5oMAAAAA@giganews.com> |
Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System > http://gpsworld.com/sensors-in-motion-launches-mems-based-inertial-nav-system/ > Sensors in Motion (SIM) has introduced a MEMS > (micro-electro-mechanical) navigation-grade inertial system (INS) > that it says could transform the $8 billion/year inertial market with > new products by offering price and performance specifications better > than those currently available. > > The first INS devices have been delivered to the Army CERDEC Night > Vision Electronic Sensors Directorate (NVESD). > > SIM, a spinout from NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory and California > Institute of Technology, is developing a family of high-accuracy MEMS > gyroscopes, accelerometers and inertial measurement unit ( IMU) > solutions. It says it has perfected unique MEMS structures using > volume silicon wafer processing techniques to produce gyroscopes > having ARW (angle random walk) less than 0.0035 degree/root-hour and > bias instability less than 0.01 degree/hour with extraordinary > vibration and temperature immunity, a performance comparable to ring > laser (RLG) and fiber optic (FOG) gyros that are 20 times larger and > 100 times more expensive. > > These features are mandatory for numerous applications where location > is not available from GPS or vehicle position accuracy is required > including autonomous vehicles, drones, mining asset tracking, dead > reckoning, agricultural seed placement, oil and gas directional > drilling, self-driving autos, firefighter navigation, optical image > stabilization, industrial equipment azimuth, aerospace and defense > products and most GPS-denied environments, in addition to new > applications. -- sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated to the discussion of physics, news from the physics community, and physics-related social issues.
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| From | kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-26 15:40 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <c7darala9fr0oe3bpj8pgo3hu7f92t1luj@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #509512 |
On Sun, 26 Jul 2015 18:19:24 +0000 (UTC), Fritz Köhler
<fritzk@notrenetwork.net> wrote:
>jimp wrote:
>
>>> A 3d magnetic sensor has no drift (pole position fixed). Likewise an 3d
>>> accelerometer (gravity is always down). In case of whatever drift due
>>> to whatever reason, that's why the need of ON-SITE calibration.
>>
>> All inertial navigation systems suffer from integration drift which
>> means the position must be periodically corrected from something else.
>
>Not the magnetic. If you rotate 360° in whatever direction, the
>orientation of the magnetic line will stay fixed. Its magnitude (Earth)
>may vary around 0.5 gauss, but this is not an issue. (0.25 to 0.65 gauss
>around the world)
>
>The accelerometer use to have a bit of drift, however, the gravity
>direction line is again, still fixed. (the dis-alignment of the axis are
>specified by the manufacturer)
Moron NYM-changing TROLL, the magnetic pole is presently
somewhere in Northwest Canada, which is a different direction for
everybody on Earth.
IMU components are readily available, but are useless
for navigation.
The US Army Air Force in WWII had a device with
inputs from gyros, pitot tube airspeed, barometric pressure
and compass heading, but the longer the trip, the more
it could be off.
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| From | wobbly <wobbly@dont-email.me> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-28 22:14 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mp8urb$1k6$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #509691 |
kefischer wrote: >>Not the magnetic. If you rotate 360° in whatever direction, the >>orientation of the magnetic line will stay fixed. Its magnitude (Earth) >>may vary around 0.5 gauss, but this is not an issue. (0.25 to 0.65 gauss >>around the world) >> >>The accelerometer use to have a bit of drift, however, the gravity >>direction line is again, still fixed. (the dis-alignment of the axis are >>specified by the manufacturer) > > Moron NYM-changing TROLL, the magnetic pole is presently > somewhere in Northwest Canada, which is a different direction for > everybody on Earth. :) Does not matter where it is. The point is that the position of the pole does not change significantly enough (to be measurable) over a time period of days or hours. Ie is been said, rotating your sensor 360⁰, where do you think it will arrive exactly (at the end of that rotation)? > IMU components are readily available, but are useless > for navigation. Too bat you know nothing about anything. > The US Army Air Force in WWII had a device with > inputs from gyros, pitot tube airspeed, barometric pressure and compass > heading, but the longer the trip, the more it could be off. Only because of the gyros (drift), as is been said, having no natural axis of reference. Use a brain, big mouth.
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-26 23:20 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <7i6g8c-c8f.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #509512 |
In sci.physics Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> wrote: > On 7/26/15 11:04 AM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >> All intertial systems must be initialized against some accurate external >> reference. >> > > Doesn't have to be GNSS, jimp. What part of "some accurate external reference" is it that you failed to understand, shit for brains? No, fuck head, it does not have to be GNSS, is has to be some accurate external reference, ass hole. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-26 23:46 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ZJWdnZMbVqIvKijInZ2dnUU7-a-dnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #509753 |
On Sun, 26 Jul 2015 23:20:07 +0000, jimp wrote: > ... shit for brains... fuck head... ass hole. Tourettes!
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| From | Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-26 23:44 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ZJWdnZAbVqLcKijInZ2dnUU7-a-dnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #509512 |
On Sun, 26 Jul 2015 13:33:20 +0000, Fritz Köhler wrote: > jimp wrote: > >> Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Sensors in Motion Launches MEMS-Based Inertial Nav System >> >> It still needs calibration by something like GPS shit head. > > MEMS does not need GPS calibration, asshat. That's the whole idea with > inertial MEMS, they calibrate by completely other means. What an idiot, > lol, to calibrate MEMS by GPS. Given your great willingness to speak up, I wish you knew what you were talking about. Pennino may blather some, but at least he knows things: "MEMS" doesn't necessarily "require calibration" or "not require calibration". It's an acronym for micro-electro-mechanical-system. MEMS-based *inertial guidance systems* do require calibration. They drift. Some of them drift less than others, but they all drift. -- Goat
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-27 22:52 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <kapi8c-7vg.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #509792 |
In sci.physics Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> wrote: > On 27/07/2015 3:08 AM, Fabian Russell wrote: >> Yes, of course, they do drift. >> >> But the point is that for certain military applications they can >> adequately replace GPS. Cruise missiles, for example, will only >> be in flight for a few hours, at most, and thus the drift will >> be negligible. The same for smart bombs. The advantage is that >> MEMS INS cannot be jammed. > > It would extremely useful in consumer electronics to integrate a MEMS > chip into a traditional GPS system. The GPS could still keep going even > when you're in a long tunnel, or inside an underground garage, or > something like that. It would supplement the GPS signal, and keep the > car on track even while the GPS signal was nowhere to be found. It > wouldn't have to be as accurate as military MEMS, of course. > > Yousuf Khan As there is usually only one way in or out of a tunnel or underground garage, I hardly see where GPS is needed there at all. Perhaps some people don't know what those signs with an arrow and the word "exit" mean. Also, MEMS is a type of component, not a system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microelectromechanical_systems -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Jackpol11@hotmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-28 16:41 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <82qfra9pj2cl00sna26pa7v01j9s5s317q@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #509938 |
On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 22:52:36 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >In sci.physics Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> wrote: >> On 27/07/2015 3:08 AM, Fabian Russell wrote: >>> Yes, of course, they do drift. >>> >>> But the point is that for certain military applications they can >>> adequately replace GPS. Cruise missiles, for example, will only >>> bShould Jesuse in flight for a few hours, at most, and thus the drift will >>> be negligible. The same for smart bombs. The advantage is that >>> MEMS INS cannot be jammed. >> >> It would extremely useful in consumer electronics to integrate a MEMS >> chip into a traditional GPS system. The GPS could still keep going even >> when you're in a long tunnel, or inside an underground garage, or >> something like that. It would supplement the GPS signal, and keep the >> car on track even while the GPS signal was nowhere to be found. It >> wouldn't have to be as accurate as military MEMS, of course. >> >> Yousuf Khan > >As there is usually only one way in or out of a tunnel or underground >garage, I hardly see where GPS is needed there at all. Perhaps some >people don't know what those signs with an arrow and the word "exit" >mean. > >Also, MEMS is a type of component, not a system. > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microelectromechanical_systems It might clarify things to see how an inertial guidance system really works. There is a stable platform containing several accelerometers. Their outputs are integrated to give velocity and again for distance. The function of the 3 gyroscopes is to keep the stable platform exactly horizontal locally, so the gravity vector can never get into the accelerometers. There's no way to accomplish this except for dependence on gyroscopes. Gyros do drift and so you do get gravity input to the accelerometers. Notice that as the distance is accumulated by the accelerometers, the vertical axis will have changed by angle x/R, and a computed current must be supplied to the torque motors to replicate the local vertical Of course the gyros need to keep directional stability also, not allowing the platform to rotate about the vertical axis. They work best in a freefalling ballistic missile.. The inertial system could work for a short period of time to augment a GPS that was out of service, but there's no way that the GPS would be able to correct the gyroscopes for their drift. After one hour's flight the platform could be badly off the horizontal leading to some misdirection. I spent a number of years in inertial guidance, and the gyros were always of the most concern, promise exceeding performance! John Polasek
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| From | Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-01 12:32 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <mpi75b$f81$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #510061 |
Dne 31/07/2015 v 22:58 Jackpol11@hotmail.com napsal(a): > I didn't hear you say anything helpful, sure they are a different kind > of gyroscope that hopefully can compete in accuracy with the > conventional ones. If their function is not to keep a local vertical, > and keep gravity out of the accelerometers,then what is it? Classical meaning of gyroscope as measure against to be rotated misses the etymology of the word. Freely translated it is "noticing the rotation", and this is followed by MEMS gyroscopes . https://www.google.cz/search?q=MEMS+gyroscope http://www.quora.com/How-does-a-MEMS-gyroscope-work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrating_structure_gyroscope https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A03AENwOVNY ( MEMS gyroscopes - A revolutionary way to interface with the real world (ePresentation) ) http://electroiq.com/blog/2010/11/introduction-to-mems-gyroscopes/ -- Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )
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| From | Jackpol11@hotmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-02 15:51 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <k5ssratdurv88agr91mppf95v83u7hclao@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #510632 |
On Sat, 1 Aug 2015 12:32:41 +0200, Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> wrote: >Dne 31/07/2015 v 22:58 Jackpol11@hotmail.com napsal(a): > >> I didn't hear you say anything helpful, sure they are a different kind >> of gyroscope that hopefully can compete in accuracy with the >> conventional ones. If their function is not to keep a local vertical, >> and keep gravity out of the accelerometers,then what is it? > >Classical meaning of gyroscope >as measure against to be rotated >misses the etymology of the word. > >Freely translated it is "noticing the rotation", >and this is followed by MEMS gyroscopes . > >https://www.google.cz/search?q=MEMS+gyroscope > >http://www.quora.com/How-does-a-MEMS-gyroscope-work > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrating_structure_gyroscope > >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A03AENwOVNY >( MEMS gyroscopes - A revolutionary way to interface with the real world >(ePresentation) ) > >http://electroiq.com/blog/2010/11/introduction-to-mems-gyroscopes/ I've read one of the articles by the manufacturer, and I see these gyroscopes are nothing more than rate gyroscopes which are not really gyroscopes, but sensors of angular rate. They are of great use in steering missiles etc. by feeding back the rate of turn. They are useless for inertial navigation because I notice their lowest rate of detection is something like 30° per second. Inertial guidance needs to detect rates like .01° or .001°per hour! John Polasek
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-02 20:29 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <e6b29c-tks.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #510788 |
In sci.physics Jackpol11@hotmail.com wrote: > On Sat, 1 Aug 2015 12:32:41 +0200, Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>Dne 31/07/2015 v 22:58 Jackpol11@hotmail.com napsal(a): >> >>> I didn't hear you say anything helpful, sure they are a different kind >>> of gyroscope that hopefully can compete in accuracy with the >>> conventional ones. If their function is not to keep a local vertical, >>> and keep gravity out of the accelerometers,then what is it? >> >>Classical meaning of gyroscope >>as measure against to be rotated >>misses the etymology of the word. >> >>Freely translated it is "noticing the rotation", >>and this is followed by MEMS gyroscopes . >> >>https://www.google.cz/search?q=MEMS+gyroscope >> >>http://www.quora.com/How-does-a-MEMS-gyroscope-work >> >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrating_structure_gyroscope >> >>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A03AENwOVNY >>( MEMS gyroscopes - A revolutionary way to interface with the real world >>(ePresentation) ) >> >>http://electroiq.com/blog/2010/11/introduction-to-mems-gyroscopes/ > I've read one of the articles by the manufacturer, and I see these > gyroscopes are nothing more than rate gyroscopes which are not really > gyroscopes, but sensors of angular rate. They are of great use in > steering missiles etc. by feeding back the rate of turn. > They are useless for inertial navigation because I notice their lowest > rate of detection is something like 30° per second. Inertial guidance > needs to detect rates like .01° or .001°per hour! > John Polasek There you go; letting reality get in the way of arm waving bafflegab from breathless press releases. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-03 01:12 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <mpm82k$ub3$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #510788 |
Dne 02/08/2015 v 21:51 Jackpol11@hotmail.com napsal(a): > On Sat, 1 Aug 2015 12:32:41 +0200, Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Dne 31/07/2015 v 22:58 Jackpol11@hotmail.com napsal(a): >> >>> I didn't hear you say anything helpful, sure they are a different kind >>> of gyroscope that hopefully can compete in accuracy with the >>> conventional ones. If their function is not to keep a local vertical, >>> and keep gravity out of the accelerometers,then what is it? >> >> Classical meaning of gyroscope >> as measure against to be rotated >> misses the etymology of the word. >> >> Freely translated it is "noticing the rotation", >> and this is followed by MEMS gyroscopes . >> >> https://www.google.cz/search?q=MEMS+gyroscope >> >> http://www.quora.com/How-does-a-MEMS-gyroscope-work >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrating_structure_gyroscope >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A03AENwOVNY >> ( MEMS gyroscopes - A revolutionary way to interface with the real world >> (ePresentation) ) >> >> http://electroiq.com/blog/2010/11/introduction-to-mems-gyroscopes/ > I've read one of the articles by the manufacturer, and I see these > gyroscopes are nothing more than rate gyroscopes which are not really > gyroscopes, but sensors of angular rate. They are of great use in Greek gyros "a circle" (see gyre (n.)) + skopos "watcher" (see scope (n.1)), because the device demonstrates that the earth rotates. Gyroscope IS a sensor of angular rate. > steering missiles etc. by feeding back the rate of turn. > They are useless for inertial navigation because I notice their lowest > rate of detection is something like 30° per second. Inertial guidance > needs to detect rates like .01° or .001°per hour! > John Polasek > I remember 30 deg/s was full scale limit, not sensitivity, as seen on the video at 4:56. "The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." --Chinese proverb -- Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-03 00:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <svn29c-2i.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #510875 |
In sci.physics Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> wrote: > Dne 02/08/2015 v 21:51 Jackpol11@hotmail.com napsal(a): >> On Sat, 1 Aug 2015 12:32:41 +0200, Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Dne 31/07/2015 v 22:58 Jackpol11@hotmail.com napsal(a): >>> >>>> I didn't hear you say anything helpful, sure they are a different kind >>>> of gyroscope that hopefully can compete in accuracy with the >>>> conventional ones. If their function is not to keep a local vertical, >>>> and keep gravity out of the accelerometers,then what is it? >>> >>> Classical meaning of gyroscope >>> as measure against to be rotated >>> misses the etymology of the word. >>> >>> Freely translated it is "noticing the rotation", >>> and this is followed by MEMS gyroscopes . >>> >>> https://www.google.cz/search?q=MEMS+gyroscope >>> >>> http://www.quora.com/How-does-a-MEMS-gyroscope-work >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrating_structure_gyroscope >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A03AENwOVNY >>> ( MEMS gyroscopes - A revolutionary way to interface with the real world >>> (ePresentation) ) >>> >>> http://electroiq.com/blog/2010/11/introduction-to-mems-gyroscopes/ >> I've read one of the articles by the manufacturer, and I see these >> gyroscopes are nothing more than rate gyroscopes which are not really >> gyroscopes, but sensors of angular rate. They are of great use in > > Greek gyros "a circle" (see gyre (n.)) + skopos "watcher" (see scope > (n.1)), because the device demonstrates that the earth rotates. > > Gyroscope IS a sensor of angular rate. A gyroscope CAN BE a sensor of angular rate, and several other things including just a toy. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Jackpol11@hotmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-03 12:17 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <g94vraliadmh0rv4gml02avf66riutvv43@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #510882 |
On Mon, 3 Aug 2015 00:07:56 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >In sci.physics Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> wrote: >> Dne 02/08/2015 v 21:51 Jackpol11@hotmail.com napsal(a): >>> On Sat, 1 Aug 2015 12:32:41 +0200, Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dne 31/07/2015 v 22:58 Jackpol11@hotmail.com napsal(a): >>>> >>>>> I didn't hear you say anything helpful, sure they are a different kind >>>>> of gyroscope that hopefully can compete in accuracy with the >>>>> conventional ones. If their function is not to keep a local vertical, >>>>> and keep gravity out of the accelerometers,then what is it? >>>> >>>> Classical meaning of gyroscope >>>> as measure against to be rotated >>>> misses the etymology of the word. >>>> >>>> Freely translated it is "noticing the rotation", >>>> and this is followed by MEMS gyroscopes . >>>> >>>> https://www.google.cz/search?q=MEMS+gyroscope >>>> >>>> http://www.quora.com/How-does-a-MEMS-gyroscope-work >>>> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrating_structure_gyroscope >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A03AENwOVNY >>>> ( MEMS gyroscopes - A revolutionary way to interface with the real world >>>> (ePresentation) ) >>>> >>>> http://electroiq.com/blog/2010/11/introduction-to-mems-gyroscopes/ >>> I've read one of the articles by the manufacturer, and I see these >>> gyroscopes are nothing more than rate gyroscopes which are not really >>> gyroscopes, but sensors of angular rate. They are of great use in >> >> Greek gyros "a circle" (see gyre (n.)) + skopos "watcher" (see scope >> (n.1)), because the device demonstrates that the earth rotates. >> >> Gyroscope IS a sensor of angular rate. > >A gyroscope CAN BE a sensor of angular rate, and several other things >including just a toy. A rate gyroscope is elastically restrained with a spring. A true gyroscope as used in an inertial guidance system is insulated against the angular rates by virtue of being mounted in gimbals, from which the angles can be read for navigation computation. It tries to maintain a rigid orientation in an inertial space. Deviation sensed by gyroscopes produce correction torques at the gimbals. John Polasek
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| From | "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-03 09:36 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <5711408f-9bcd-4e17-8c25-e2d945c8f509@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #510968 |
On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 9:18:01 AM UTC-7, Jack...@hotmail.com wrote: > On Mon, 3 Aug 2015 00:07:56 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > > >In sci.physics Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dne 02/08/2015 v 21:51 Jackpol11@hotmail.com napsal(a): > >>> On Sat, 1 Aug 2015 12:32:41 +0200, Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Dne 31/07/2015 v 22:58 Jackpol11@hotmail.com napsal(a): > >>>> > >>>>> I didn't hear you say anything helpful, sure they are a different kind > >>>>> of gyroscope that hopefully can compete in accuracy with the > >>>>> conventional ones. If their function is not to keep a local vertical, > >>>>> and keep gravity out of the accelerometers,then what is it? > >>>> > >>>> Classical meaning of gyroscope > >>>> as measure against to be rotated > >>>> misses the etymology of the word. > >>>> > >>>> Freely translated it is "noticing the rotation", > >>>> and this is followed by MEMS gyroscopes . > >>>> > >>>> https://www.google.cz/search?q=MEMS+gyroscope > >>>> > >>>> http://www.quora.com/How-does-a-MEMS-gyroscope-work > >>>> > >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrating_structure_gyroscope > >>>> > >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A03AENwOVNY > >>>> ( MEMS gyroscopes - A revolutionary way to interface with the real world > >>>> (ePresentation) ) > >>>> > >>>> http://electroiq.com/blog/2010/11/introduction-to-mems-gyroscopes/ > >>> I've read one of the articles by the manufacturer, and I see these > >>> gyroscopes are nothing more than rate gyroscopes which are not really > >>> gyroscopes, but sensors of angular rate. They are of great use in > >> > >> Greek gyros "a circle" (see gyre (n.)) + skopos "watcher" (see scope > >> (n.1)), because the device demonstrates that the earth rotates. > >> > >> Gyroscope IS a sensor of angular rate. > > > >A gyroscope CAN BE a sensor of angular rate, and several other things > >including just a toy. > A rate gyroscope is elastically restrained with a spring. > A true gyroscope as used in an inertial guidance system is insulated > against the angular rates by virtue of being mounted in gimbals, from > which the angles can be read for navigation computation. It tries to > maintain a rigid orientation in an inertial space. Deviation sensed by > gyroscopes produce correction torques at the gimbals. > John Polasek
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| From | Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-03 19:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <mpo6l8$5mq$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #510968 |
On 08/03/2015 06:17 PM, Jackpol11@hotmail.com wrote: > On Mon, 3 Aug 2015 00:07:56 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >> In sci.physics Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Greek gyros "a circle" (see gyre (n.)) + skopos "watcher" (see scope >>> (n.1)), because the device demonstrates that the earth rotates. >>> >>> Gyroscope IS a sensor of angular rate. >> >> A gyroscope CAN BE a sensor of angular rate, and several other things >> including just a toy. Is. Even those rotating masses in gimbals sense the angular rate. > A rate gyroscope is elastically restrained with a spring. Can, but need not to be. Vibrating ones based on Coriolis force are not. > A true gyroscope as used in an inertial guidance system is insulated > against the angular rates by virtue of being mounted in gimbals, from > which the angles can be read for navigation computation. It tries to > maintain a rigid orientation in an inertial space. Deviation sensed by > gyroscopes produce correction torques at the gimbals. In fact, "untrue" gyroscopes are more true gyroscopes than "true" gyroscopes. "True" gyroscopes are not not well suited for "watching the circle", they just try to keep the platform free from any rotation. There are 2 possible approaches for inertial systems, wrt rotation: 1/ to keep the orientation 2/ to know how orientation changed In fact, systems based on MEMS are reaching quality of classical gyroscopes, with advantage of price, mass, volums and durability. -- Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )
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| From | Bohuš Matuška <bohu@paranetnet.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-03 18:01 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mpoa91$3iu$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #510980 |
Poutnik wrote: > In fact, "untrue" gyroscopes are more true gyroscopes than "true" > gyroscopes. "True" gyroscopes are not not well suited for "watching the > circle", > they just try to keep the platform free from any rotation. no > There are 2 possible approaches for inertial systems, wrt rotation: > 1/ to keep the orientation 2/ to know how orientation changed no gyro can't do that. Orientation is about a higher level, signal processing including a microcontroller unit. > In fact, systems based on MEMS are reaching quality of classical > gyroscopes, with advantage of price, mass, volums and durability. no
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| From | Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-03 20:31 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <mpobvq$se0$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #511005 |
On 08/03/2015 08:01 PM, Bohuš Matuška wrote: > Poutnik wrote: > >> In fact, "untrue" gyroscopes are more true gyroscopes than "true" >> gyroscopes. "True" gyroscopes are not not well suited for "watching the >> circle", >> they just try to keep the platform free from any rotation. > > no My 3 year old nephew was used to say it very often. > >> There are 2 possible approaches for inertial systems, wrt rotation: >> 1/ to keep the orientation 2/ to know how orientation changed > > no gyro can't do that. Orientation is about a higher level, signal > processing including a microcontroller unit. Did I say othwerwise ? > >> In fact, systems based on MEMS are reaching quality of classical >> gyroscopes, with advantage of price, mass, volums and durability. > > no > And I bet my nephew was better in that. -- Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )
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| From | Bohuš Matuška <bohu@paranetnet.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-03 19:28 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mpofde$ef6$2@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #511018 |
Poutnik wrote: > On 08/03/2015 08:01 PM, Bohuš Matuška wrote: >> Poutnik wrote: >> >>> In fact, "untrue" gyroscopes are more true gyroscopes than "true" >>> gyroscopes. "True" gyroscopes are not not well suited for "watching >>> the circle", >>> they just try to keep the platform free from any rotation. >> >> no > > My 3 year old nephew was used to say it very often. > >>> There are 2 possible approaches for inertial systems, wrt rotation: >>> 1/ to keep the orientation 2/ to know how orientation changed >> >> no gyro can't do that. Orientation is about a higher level, signal >> processing including a microcontroller unit. > > Did I say othwerwise ? >> >>> In fact, systems based on MEMS are reaching quality of classical >>> gyroscopes, with advantage of price, mass, volums and durability. >> >> no >> > And I bet my nephew was better in that. A giro won't show you orientation, angle, position and such, Poutink. They are not capable to do that. They only output signal when change/rotation occurs. Otherwise they output nothing (except avoidable drift). Makes sure you know what you are talking about.
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-03 18:01 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6sm49c-fgj.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #510980 |
In sci.physics Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> wrote: > On 08/03/2015 06:17 PM, Jackpol11@hotmail.com wrote: >> On Mon, 3 Aug 2015 00:07:56 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >> >>> In sci.physics Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> Greek gyros "a circle" (see gyre (n.)) + skopos "watcher" (see scope >>>> (n.1)), because the device demonstrates that the earth rotates. >>>> >>>> Gyroscope IS a sensor of angular rate. >>> >>> A gyroscope CAN BE a sensor of angular rate, and several other things >>> including just a toy. > > Is. Even those rotating masses in gimbals sense the angular rate. How does this gyroscope sense anything given it has no sensors of anything? http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/eafc/ -- Jim Pennino
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