Groups > sci.physics > #535406 > unrolled thread

Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO.

Started by	"Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com>
First post	2015-11-25 13:15 -0500
Last post	2015-11-29 22:53 -0700
Articles	15 — 8 participants

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#535406 — Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO.

From	"Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com>
Date	2015-11-25 13:15 -0500
Subject	Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO.
Message-ID	<n34tnh$bo1$2@dont-email.me>

Elon Musk Verified account ‏@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the
upper stage and a heavy satellite.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/669132749500887040

Thank you very much, Mr. Musk.

It would be a major advance if SpaceX would at least do a test launch of a
F9 first stage only to confirm what the payload could be for it as an SSTO.
Perhaps someone at DARPA could encourage them to do such a test? That would
remove a major roadblock to SSTO's being investigated - the mental block
that they can not be done.

For an SSTO altitude compensation is important to maximize performance. I
was surprised in fact that when I did the calculation I found that using
altitude compensation an SSTO can be more cost effective than a two stage
rocket. That is, the price per kilo is lower for the SSTO with altitude
compensation than it is for a TSTO(!)

This is a radical suggestion I know. But for a long time people have been
saying that SSTO's couldn't even be done. Now Musk has confirmed that the F9
first stage can do SSTO, without even trying to make it so. The calculation
that they can in fact even be more cost effective than a multistage, IF you
use altitude compensation, isn't even particularly hard:

The Coming SSTO's: Falcon 9 v1.1 first stage as SSTO, Page 2.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-coming-sstos-falcon-9-v11-first.html

Bob Clark

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A mission to Europa could result in the most important scientific advance in
human history, dwarfing even the Apollo missions, to discover life on
another world. By commercial space, launch and spacecraft costs can be
slashed by a factor of 10 or more. This would be a cost that could be
financed privately. And at costs this low it can even be done at a profit:

Low cost Europa lander missions.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2015/02/low-cost-europa-lander-missions.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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#535488

From	"reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com>
Date	2015-11-25 15:30 -0800
Message-ID	<7dfb7216-d2a1-49f2-816a-5a103a928d77@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#535406

On Wednesday, November 25, 2015 at 10:15:31 AM UTC-8, Robert Clark wrote:
> Elon Musk Verified account @elonmusk @TobiasVdb
> The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the 
> upper stage and a heavy satellite.
> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/669132749500887040
> 
> Thank you very much, Mr. Musk.
> 
> It would be a major advance if SpaceX would at least do a test launch of a 
> F9 first stage only to confirm what the payload could be for it as an SSTO. 
> Perhaps someone at DARPA could encourage them to do such a test? That would 
> remove a major roadblock to SSTO's being investigated - the mental block 
> that they can not be done.
> 
> For an SSTO altitude compensation is important to maximize performance. I 
> was surprised in fact that when I did the calculation I found that using 
> altitude compensation an SSTO can be more cost effective than a two stage 
> rocket. That is, the price per kilo is lower for the SSTO with altitude 
> compensation than it is for a TSTO(!)
> 
> This is a radical suggestion I know. But for a long time people have been 
> saying that SSTO's couldn't even be done. Now Musk has confirmed that the F9 
> first stage can do SSTO, without even trying to make it so. The calculation 
> that they can in fact even be more cost effective than a multistage, IF you 
> use altitude compensation, isn't even particularly hard:
> 
> The Coming SSTO's: Falcon 9 v1.1 first stage as SSTO, Page 2.
> http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-coming-sstos-falcon-9-v11-first.html
> 
> 
>    Bob Clark
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> A mission to Europa could result in the most important scientific advance in 
> human history, dwarfing even the Apollo missions, to discover life on 
> another world. By commercial space, launch and spacecraft costs can be 
> slashed by a factor of 10 or more. This would be a cost that could be 
> financed privately. And at costs this low it can even be done at a profit:
> 
> Low cost Europa lander missions.
> http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2015/02/low-cost-europa-lander-missions.html
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Best to farm it out to China.Keep in mind not one Apple part is made in USA. China will cop y our great Saturn v and have takeout on the moon.  Trebert

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#535507

From	jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Date	2015-11-25 23:56 +0000
Message-ID	<8euhic-5co.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
In reply to	#535406

In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
> 
> Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
> The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the 
> upper stage and a heavy satellite.

That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.

-- 
Jim Pennino

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#535556

From	"Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com>
Date	2015-11-25 22:45 -0500
Message-ID	<n35v3v$u7l$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#535507

The Elon tweet suggests the payload would be less, not zero. More important 
though the payload can be significantly increased by using known methods of 
altitude compensation.

  Bob Clark


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A mission to Europa could result in the most important scientific advance in 
human history, dwarfing even the Apollo missions, to discover life on 
another world. By commercial space, launch and spacecraft costs can be 
slashed by a factor of 10 or more. This would be a cost that could be 
financed privately. And at costs this low it can even be done at a profit:

Low cost Europa lander missions.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2015/02/low-cost-europa-lander-missions.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wrote in message news:8euhic-5co.ln1@mail.specsol.com...

In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>
> Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
> The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the
> upper stage and a heavy satellite.

That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.


-- 
Jim Pennino

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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#535561

From	Lester Thorpe <lt11@thorpe.info>
Date	2015-11-26 04:47 +0000
Message-ID	<pan.2015.11.26.04.47.50@thorpe.info>
In reply to	#535556

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 22:45:20 -0500, Robert Clark wrote:

> 
> known methods of altitude compensation.
> 

You mention "altitude compensation."

Is altitude compensation a major reason for using multi-stage vehicles
to achieve orbit?  That is, multi-stages would allow different engines
for different altitudes.

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#535575

From	Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org>
Date	2015-11-25 23:11 -0700
Message-ID	<dbnm5jFtc29U1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#535561

Lester Thorpe <lt11@thorpe.info> wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 22:45:20 -0500, Robert Clark wrote:
>
>> 
>> known methods of altitude compensation.
>> 
>
>You mention "altitude compensation."
>
>Is altitude compensation a major reason for using multi-stage vehicles
>to achieve orbit?  That is, multi-stages would allow different engines
>for different altitudes.

The shape of the bell of the rocket engine depends on the pressure
surrounding the engine.  This indeed is one of the reasons for
multi-staging.  (another is to discard the weight of the tankage and
weight of extra engines that lifted that tankage when full)
-- 
We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

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#535815

From	"Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com>
Date	2015-11-26 21:34 -0500
Message-ID	<n38fbv$ivu$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#535561

Yes. So far altitude compensation has not been used, though methods of 
accomplishing it have been known for decades. Since they are most useful for 
SSTO's, they have not been implemented.

  Bob Clark

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A mission to Europa could result in the most important scientific advance in 
human history, dwarfing even the Apollo missions, to discover life on 
another world. By commercial space, launch and spacecraft costs can be 
slashed by a factor of 10 or more. This would be a cost that could be 
financed privately. And at costs this low it can even be done at a profit:

Low cost Europa lander missions.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2015/02/low-cost-europa-lander-missions.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lester Thorpe"  wrote in message 
news:pan.2015.11.26.04.47.50@thorpe.info...

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 22:45:20 -0500, Robert Clark wrote:

>
> known methods of altitude compensation.
>

You mention "altitude compensation."

Is altitude compensation a major reason for using multi-stage vehicles
to achieve orbit?  That is, multi-stages would allow different engines
for different altitudes.
---

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#536438

From	Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com>
Date	2015-11-29 22:57 -0700
Message-ID	<88pn5bddv14hba48ljvn4i86afauj3dimd@4ax.com>
In reply to	#535561

Lester Thorpe <lt11@thorpe.info> wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 22:45:20 -0500, Robert Clark wrote:
>
>> 
>> known methods of altitude compensation.
>> 
>
>You mention "altitude compensation."
>
>Is altitude compensation a major reason for using multi-stage vehicles
>to achieve orbit?  That is, multi-stages would allow different engines
>for different altitudes.
>

Not really, although it does help.  The real helpful part is to be
able to dump dry mass on the way up so you don't have to burn all the
fuel that would be necessary to haul it along.

-- 
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable 
 man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, 
 all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
                                      --George Bernard Shaw

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#535562

From	"Greg $Strider$ Moore" <mooregr@deletethisgreenms.com>
Date	2015-11-25 23:53 -0500
Message-ID	<f9-dnTK2_o3KDcvLnZ2dnUU7-dGdnZ2d@earthlink.com>
In reply to	#535507

wrote in message news:8euhic-5co.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
>
>In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
>> The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the
>> upper stage and a heavy satellite.
>
>That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
>to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.
>
>

It's more like Lindbergh's flight across the Atlantic; proof of concept.


-- 
Greg D. Moore                   http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net

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#535576

From	jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Date	2015-11-26 06:25 +0000
Message-ID	<58liic-jsq.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
In reply to	#535562

In sci.physics "Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <mooregr@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote:
> wrote in message news:8euhic-5co.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
>>
>>In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
>>> The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the
>>> upper stage and a heavy satellite.
>>
>>That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
>>to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.
>>
>>
> 
> It's more like Lindbergh's flight across the Atlantic; proof of concept.
 
Not really.

What a given engine will achieve is calculable. 

-- 
Jim Pennino

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#535631

From	Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com>
Date	2015-11-26 11:46 -0500
Message-ID	<MPG.30c1015ed312fcfa989916@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to	#535507

In article <8euhic-5co.ln1@mail.specsol.com>, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com 
says...
> 
> In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
> > The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the 
> > upper stage and a heavy satellite.
> 
> That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
> to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.

It would be useful only in that it would finally prove that SSTO is 
possible.  Right now, it's only a theoretical possibility.  

In my opinion, it would be a very expensive stunt since Falcon 9's first 
stage is not designed for reentry from orbital velocities.  

Jeff
-- 
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer

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#535700

From	jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Date	2015-11-26 20:13 +0000
Message-ID	<pn5kic-ul2.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
In reply to	#535631

In sci.physics Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> wrote:
> In article <8euhic-5co.ln1@mail.specsol.com>, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com 
> says...
>> 
>> In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> > Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
>> > The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the 
>> > upper stage and a heavy satellite.
>> 
>> That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
>> to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.
> 
> It would be useful only in that it would finally prove that SSTO is 
> possible.  Right now, it's only a theoretical possibility.  

It is much more than a theoretical possibility, but it is not currently
an economic possibility.

> In my opinion, it would be a very expensive stunt since Falcon 9's first 
> stage is not designed for reentry from orbital velocities.  

A butt load of micro-satellites might make it usefull for something.

> 
> Jeff

-- 
Jim Pennino

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#536439

From	Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com>
Date	2015-11-29 23:03 -0700
Message-ID	<afpn5b1isgppcdavukf5jgbpoesnh9dqlj@4ax.com>
In reply to	#535700

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

>>
>> In my opinion, it would be a very expensive stunt since Falcon 9's first 
>> stage is not designed for reentry from orbital velocities.  
>
>A butt load of micro-satellites might make it usefull for something.
>

But that's a very expensive way to launch them.  Cheaper to put them
all on a regular Falcon 9 as extra cargo and let them ride 'free'. The
launch is actually cheaper overall than the 'SSTO' launch of just the
microsats, since you're not throwing away all those engines in the
first stage (assuming they get landing working).

-- 
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable 
 man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, 
 all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
                                      --George Bernard Shaw

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#535630

From	Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com>
Date	2015-11-26 11:44 -0500
Message-ID	<MPG.30c10105476976c8989915@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to	#535406

In article <n34tnh$bo1$2@dont-email.me>, 
rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com says...
> 
> Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
> The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the 
> upper stage and a heavy satellite.
> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/669132749500887040
> 
> Thank you very much, Mr. Musk.
> 
> It would be a major advance if SpaceX would at least do a test launch of a 
> F9 first stage only to confirm what the payload could be for it as an SSTO. 
> Perhaps someone at DARPA could encourage them to do such a test? That would 
> remove a major roadblock to SSTO's being investigated - the mental block 
> that they can not be done.
> 
> For an SSTO altitude compensation is important to maximize performance. I 
> was surprised in fact that when I did the calculation I found that using 
> altitude compensation an SSTO can be more cost effective than a two stage 
> rocket. That is, the price per kilo is lower for the SSTO with altitude 
> compensation than it is for a TSTO(!)
> 
> This is a radical suggestion I know. But for a long time people have been 
> saying that SSTO's couldn't even be done. Now Musk has confirmed that the F9 
> first stage can do SSTO, without even trying to make it so. The calculation 
> that they can in fact even be more cost effective than a multistage, IF you 
> use altitude compensation, isn't even particularly hard:
> 
> The Coming SSTO's: Falcon 9 v1.1 first stage as SSTO, Page 2.
> http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-coming-sstos-falcon-9-v11-first.html

Lots of stages in the past supposedly had SSTO performance, but none has 
ever flown as an SSTO.  Until a Falcon 9 Full Thrust first stages flies 
as an SSTO, this is all theoretical.

I doubt SpaceX would ever fly it as an SSTO.  Reentering from orbital 
velocity surely cause the stage to break up and be lost.  It would be a 
very expensive stunt.  

Jeff
-- 
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#536437

From	Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com>
Date	2015-11-29 22:53 -0700
Message-ID	<qnon5btmlh56fsobq24mcj6cplve5rmv81@4ax.com>
In reply to	#535406

"Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> wrote:

>
>Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
>The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the 
>upper stage and a heavy satellite.
>https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/669132749500887040
>
>Thank you very much, Mr. Musk.
>
>It would be a major advance if SpaceX would at least do a test launch of a 
>F9 first stage only to confirm what the payload could be for it as an SSTO. 
>Perhaps someone at DARPA could encourage them to do such a test? That would 
>remove a major roadblock to SSTO's being investigated - the mental block 
>that they can not be done.
>

I'd rather have them get landing that first stage working instead.  If
you're doing SSTO you probably lose the first stage because you're
using that 10% reserve fuel to get to orbit rather than land the
booster.  That means that a two stage Falcon 9 is probably cheaper to
use than a SSTO Falcon 9.


-- 
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable 
 man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, 
 all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
                                      --George Bernard Shaw

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

csiph-web

From	"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <mooregr@deletethisgreenms.com>
Date	2015-11-25 23:53 -0500
Message-ID	<f9-dnTK2_o3KDcvLnZ2dnUU7-dGdnZ2d@earthlink.com>
In reply to	#535507

Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO.

Contents

#535406 — Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO.

#535488

#535507

#535556

#535561

#535575

#535815

#536438

#535562

#535576

#535631

#535700

#536439

#535630

#536437