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Groups > sci.physics > #524213 > unrolled thread

green stars

Started byThe Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
First post2015-10-02 01:17 -0700
Last post2015-10-04 07:53 -0500
Articles 20 on this page of 98 — 28 participants

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Contents

  green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-02 01:17 -0700
    Re: green stars Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 08:19 -0500
      Re: green stars john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 06:30 -0700
        Re: green stars Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 08:59 -0500
          Re: green stars benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 12:24 -0400
            Re: green stars HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 10:19 -0700
          Re: green stars Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-10-03 12:14 +0200
    Re: green stars Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-10-02 14:40 -0400
      Re: green stars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-02 22:18 +0000
        Re: green stars Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 17:45 -0500
          Re: green stars Angelo <patrizio.pan-2002@libero.it> - 2015-10-05 08:30 -0700
        Re: green stars Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 16:02 -0700
          Re: green stars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 02:29 +0000
            Re: green stars Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 22:29 -0700
            Re: green stars Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2015-10-03 23:49 -0300
              Re: green stars "Mike Dworetsky" <platinum198@pants.btinternet.com> - 2015-10-04 08:48 +0100
                Re: green stars Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 11:07 -0500
                  Re: green stars "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-10-04 12:50 -0400
                    Re: green stars Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 10:54 -0700
                  Re: green stars "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 13:21 -0400
                  Re: green stars Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-04 11:15 -0600
                    Re: green stars Stumpy <perilmung@spamnet.con> - 2015-10-05 13:39 -0700
              Re: green stars "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-10-04 09:27 -0400
              Re: green stars William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 16:45 -0400
          Re: green stars Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-10-03 17:40 -0400
            Re: green stars Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 14:51 -0700
            Re: green stars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 21:54 +0000
              Re: green stars Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 17:24 -0700
              Re: green stars wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-04 06:46 -0400
                Re: green stars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 13:15 +0000
                  Re: green stars jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-10-04 14:27 +0000
                    Re: green stars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 16:53 +0000
                      Re: green stars jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-10-05 13:02 +0000
                        Re: green stars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-05 14:39 +0000
                          Re: green stars jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-10-06 13:34 +0000
                            Re: green stars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-06 14:24 +0000
                              Re: green stars jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-10-07 13:18 +0000
                            Re: green stars Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-10-07 19:27 -0400
                              Re: green stars "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-10-07 19:43 -0400
                              Re: green stars Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-08 01:58 -0600
                                Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-08 01:11 -0700
                                  Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-08 13:49 -0700
                                    Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-08 21:20 -0700
                                      Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-09 22:04 -0700
                                Re: green stars wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-08 08:19 -0400
                                  Re: green stars pnalsing@gmail.com - 2015-10-08 08:59 -0700
                                  Re: green stars Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-09 00:10 -0600
                                    Re: green stars William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 13:19 -0400
                                    Re: green stars wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-09 21:27 -0400
                                      Re: green stars Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-10 20:12 -0600
                        Re: green stars Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 19:08 -0500
                        Re: green stars Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-05 17:20 -0700
                          Re: green stars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-06 01:09 +0000
                            Re: green stars "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 22:21 -0400
                              Re: green stars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-06 02:33 +0000
                                Re: green stars "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 23:03 -0400
                                  Re: green stars Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-05 22:03 -0700
                                  Re: green stars Wayne Brown <fwbrown@bellsouth.net> - 2015-10-08 19:38 +0000
                                    Re: green stars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-08 22:19 +0000
                                      Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-08 16:14 -0700
                                      Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-08 16:16 -0700
                                        Re: green stars pnalsing@gmail.com - 2015-10-08 17:33 -0700
                                          Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-08 19:33 -0700
                                            Re: green stars pnalsing@gmail.com - 2015-10-08 19:59 -0700
                                      Re: green stars "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-08 21:36 -0400
                                        Re: green stars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-09 04:19 +0000
                                          Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-09 11:12 -0700
                                        Re: green stars scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-10-09 14:05 +0000
                                    Re: green stars "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-08 18:57 -0400
                          Re: green stars jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-10-06 13:34 +0000
                  Re: green stars Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 10:57 -0700
                Re: green stars "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-10-04 10:41 -0400
                  Re: green stars wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-04 13:43 -0400
        Re: green stars wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-02 22:38 -0400
        Re: green stars Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-10-03 17:37 -0400
          Re: green stars Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 14:52 -0700
          Re: green stars Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 17:36 -0500
            Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-05 01:39 -0700
              Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-05 01:55 -0700
          Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-05 01:17 -0700
            Re: green stars Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-10-05 14:04 -0400
              Re: green stars Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 13:07 -0500
              Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-05 12:58 -0700
                Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-05 23:52 -0700
                  Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-06 10:24 -0700
                    Re: green stars pnalsing@gmail.com - 2015-10-06 11:39 -0700
                    Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-06 12:35 -0700
                      Re: green stars pnalsing@gmail.com - 2015-10-06 13:20 -0700
                        Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-06 15:15 -0700
                          Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-06 15:31 -0700
                            Re: green stars pnalsing@gmail.com - 2015-10-06 15:58 -0700
                              Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-06 23:12 -0700
                  Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-06 23:34 -0700
                    Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-07 00:49 -0700
                      Re: green stars The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-08 21:24 -0700
    Re: green stars "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 13:26 -0700
      Re: green stars "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-10-06 09:58 -0700
    Re: green stars Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 07:53 -0500

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#524526

FromGreg Goss <gossg@gossg.org>
Date2015-10-04 11:15 -0600
Message-ID<d7d56kFmhttU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#524516
Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Mike Dworetsky" <platinum198@pants.btinternet.com> wrote in
>news:nN6dnXmNp_gsRI3LnZ2dnUU78UednZ2d@supernews.com: 
>
>> Joy Beeson wrote:
>>> I figured it out when I wondered why I never see electric stove
>>> burners glowing read.
>
>In my youth, growing up in Europe, I saw electric stove burners
>glowing cherry red often enough that it was unremarkable.
>
>This wasn't the big flat disk type of burner that's most common
>here in the US - they were open spirals of metal, a little under
>a centimeter thick. 
>
>They were also running at 220V, which might make a difference.

The spiral glowing red is the normal burner in North America.  When I
was young, the common burner was TWO spirals, and either or both were
turned on to combine to various of seven power settings.  Flat plate
burners are rare here.  Glass top may be more common that flat plate,
but still uncommon.

And we use 220 for high-power units like a stove, dryer, water heater
or baseboard heating.
-- 
We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

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#524748

FromStumpy <perilmung@spamnet.con>
Date2015-10-05 13:39 -0700
Message-ID<mpqdncso3PWQfY_LnZ2dnUU7-VOdnZ2d@earthlink.com>
In reply to#524526
>
> The spiral glowing red is the normal burner in North America.  When I
> was young, the common burner was TWO spirals, and either or both were
> turned on to combine to various of seven power settings.  Flat plate
> burners are rare here.  Glass top may be more common that flat plate,
> but still uncommon.
>
> And we use 220 for high-power units like a stove, dryer, water heater
> or baseboard heating.
>

I'll show you my American, 1970's 220v stovetop.

Over on  alt.binaries.schematics

Had some problem the first time.

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#524491

From"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com>
Date2015-10-04 09:27 -0400
Message-ID<mur9bm$166$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#524470
On 10/3/15 10:49 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>
> I figured it out when I wondered why I never see electric stove
> burners glowing read.


	Switch off the lights and you do. Or at least I do. I watch it go 
smoothly from dull-red to cherry-red to orange, yellow, and then 
white-hot (well, the burners don't get that high, but I worked with my 
dad when he was blacksmithing).


-- 
                      Sea Wasp
                        /^\
                        ;;;	
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com  Blog: 
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

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#524555

FromWilliam Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com>
Date2015-10-04 16:45 -0400
Message-ID<mus310$apr$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#524470
Joy Beeson wrote:
> I figured it out when I wondered why I never see electric stove
> burners glowing read.
>
> Start with a burner that's merely warm.  You can feel the infra-red
> radiation coming off it, but the coils are black.
>
> As the burner heats, it gives off more infra red, but the peak of the
> spectrum its giving off shifts blueward, so it also gives off a little
> red.  But it's very little red, and you'd have to be thoroughly
> dark-adapted to see it.
>
> As it heats further, it give off more infra-red, and more red, but
> when the peak is in the red, there is a lot of orange and yellow and
> green and blue in the sloping tail, just as there is a lot of
> infra-red in the other sloping tail.  
>
> Even though the peak is in the red, there's enough higher-frequency
> light that you don't see a pure-red red.
>
> Get it a little hotter and the peak goes higher and shifts a little
> more, and you see a definite orange.  
>
> We've pulled a safety device off somewhere, and this being a gedanken
> experiment, the coils won't melt as the burner keeps heating and the
> peak emission gets higher and bluer.  
>
> As the light gets brighter and the peak moves into the yellow area,
> the light gets paler as well as yellower, and once it's pure yellow,
> it just gets paler.  And when the peak hits green, we get pure white
> light, because green is right in the middle, and there is as much
> long-wave radiation below it as there is short-wave radiation above
> it.
>
> Which makes me wonder why plants reject green light instead of using
> it.
>
> Still hotter, and the light starts to take on a pale blue cast.  If
> it's possible for something to get hot enough to appear pure blue, I
> don't want to be in the same solar system with it, and I'm not sure I
> want to be in the same galaxy.

I happened to be looking at one when it burnt out a couple months ago.  
It was normal red, then one spot on the coil turned yellow then 
splattered apart in a white spark.  Inside the metal spiral there's a 
resistance wire with some kind of ceramic packing.  This ceramic burned 
for a while with a modest yellow flame and then went out after I turned 
circuit breaker off.

No sequence of blackbody color changes.

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#524436

FromYousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com>
Date2015-10-03 17:40 -0400
Message-ID<QYudnQPAGrXc1o3LnZ2dnUU7-bEAAAAA@giganews.com>
In reply to#524320
On 02/10/2015 7:02 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_star_(astronomy)
>
> Short answer: you are, as usual, correct.

Interesting. So it's a feature of quantum mechanics that prevents us 
from seeing green stars?

	Yousuf Khan

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#524438

FromGutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com>
Date2015-10-03 14:51 -0700
Message-ID<XnsA5289737A4025taustingmail@69.16.179.42>
In reply to#524436
Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> wrote in
news:QYudnQPAGrXc1o3LnZ2dnUU7-bEAAAAA@giganews.com: 

> On 02/10/2015 7:02 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_star_(astronomy)
>>
>> Short answer: you are, as usual, correct.
> 
> Interesting. So it's a feature of quantum mechanics that
> prevents us from seeing green stars?
> 
If guantum mechanics is the reason why stars that peak in the green 
wavelengths also put out a huge amount of light in red and blue, then 
I suppose. Half-so, anyway. The other half being how human eyes work.

-- 
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
    -- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

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#524440

Fromdjheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Date2015-10-03 21:54 +0000
Message-ID<nvnzI5.15Dv@kithrup.com>
In reply to#524436
In article <QYudnQPAGrXc1o3LnZ2dnUU7-bEAAAAA@giganews.com>,
Yousuf Khan  <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 02/10/2015 7:02 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_star_(astronomy)
>>
>> Short answer: you are, as usual, correct.
>
>Interesting. So it's a feature of quantum mechanics that prevents us 
>from seeing green stars?

Damfino.  I suggest you look at the link posted upthread and see
if it says why.

I managed to get an A in my one physics course (Physics 10, aka
Bonehead Physics), but I do not understand anything past Newton.
I haven't had to.  I take it on faith.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

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#524455

FromGutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com>
Date2015-10-03 17:24 -0700
Message-ID<XnsA528B12675E10taustingmail@69.16.179.42>
In reply to#524440
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:nvnzI5.15Dv@kithrup.com: 

> In article <QYudnQPAGrXc1o3LnZ2dnUU7-bEAAAAA@giganews.com>,
> Yousuf Khan  <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On 02/10/2015 7:02 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_star_(astronomy)
>>>
>>> Short answer: you are, as usual, correct.
>>
>>Interesting. So it's a feature of quantum mechanics that
>>prevents us from seeing green stars?
> 
> Damfino.  I suggest you look at the link posted upthread and see
> if it says why.

Phil's article is much easier to understand. It amounts to "If a star 
radiates in the green spectrum, it also radiates nearly as much 
around green, so it looks white to us because of how our eyes work."

If you want more detail than that, you'll need to understand black 
body radiation, which is. . . complicated.

-- 
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
    -- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

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#524483

Fromwdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr)
Date2015-10-04 06:46 -0400
Message-ID<mur018$5ei$1@panix3.panix.com>
In reply to#524440
In article <nvnzI5.15Dv@kithrup.com>,
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:

> I managed to get an A in my one physics course (Physics 10, aka
> Bonehead Physics), but I do not understand anything past Newton.
> I haven't had to.  I take it on faith.

Did you drop a '1' off the end of that, or was the course really
"Physics [ten]?"

-- wds

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#524492

Fromdjheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Date2015-10-04 13:15 +0000
Message-ID<nvp65o.1ID2@kithrup.com>
In reply to#524483
In article <mur018$5ei$1@panix3.panix.com>,
William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <nvnzI5.15Dv@kithrup.com>,
>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
>
>> I managed to get an A in my one physics course (Physics 10, aka
>> Bonehead Physics), but I do not understand anything past Newton.
>> I haven't had to.  I take it on faith.
>
>Did you drop a '1' off the end of that, or was the course really
>"Physics [ten]?"

Yes.

Its official title, I think, was "physics for Humanities Majors".
Everybody enrolled in the College of Letters and Sciences, who
wasn't actually majoring in a science, had to take it.  In a
similar way, those majoring in math or sciences, if they couldn't
pass a basic entrance exam in written English (in which case
they'd take the standard lower-division English courses like the
rest of us) would take English 10, which of course was called
Bonehead English.

Mind you, this was nearly sixty years ago; I don't know what they
do now.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

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#524502

Fromjmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com>
Date2015-10-04 14:27 +0000
Message-ID<PM00052148602F2733@aca41f97.ipt.aol.com>
In reply to#524492
Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <mur018$5ei$1@panix3.panix.com>,
> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote:
>>In article <nvnzI5.15Dv@kithrup.com>,
>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
>>
>>> I managed to get an A in my one physics course (Physics 10, aka
>>> Bonehead Physics), but I do not understand anything past Newton.
>>> I haven't had to.  I take it on faith.
>>
>>Did you drop a '1' off the end of that, or was the course really
>>"Physics [ten]?"
>
> Yes.
>
> Its official title, I think, was "physics for Humanities Majors".
> Everybody enrolled in the College of Letters and Sciences, who
> wasn't actually majoring in a science, had to take it.  In a
> similar way, those majoring in math or sciences, if they couldn't
> pass a basic entrance exam in written English (in which case
> they'd take the standard lower-division English courses like the
> rest of us) would take English 10, which of course was called
> Bonehead English.
>
> Mind you, this was nearly sixty years ago; I don't know what they
> do now.
>
When I went to college, we were required to take an Honors Physics
course which was real physics without using calculus.  The art
majors were not interested in the course until they figured out
it helped them with their art which was mostly drawing and
painting.

/BAH

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#524520

Fromdjheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Date2015-10-04 16:53 +0000
Message-ID<nvpG9J.21DC@kithrup.com>
In reply to#524502
In article <PM00052148602F2733@aca41f97.ipt.aol.com>,
jmfbahciv  <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <mur018$5ei$1@panix3.panix.com>,
>> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote:
>>>In article <nvnzI5.15Dv@kithrup.com>,
>>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
>>>
>>>> I managed to get an A in my one physics course (Physics 10, aka
>>>> Bonehead Physics), but I do not understand anything past Newton.
>>>> I haven't had to.  I take it on faith.
>>>
>>>Did you drop a '1' off the end of that, or was the course really
>>>"Physics [ten]?"
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Its official title, I think, was "physics for Humanities Majors".
>> Everybody enrolled in the College of Letters and Sciences, who
>> wasn't actually majoring in a science, had to take it.  In a
>> similar way, those majoring in math or sciences, if they couldn't
>> pass a basic entrance exam in written English (in which case
>> they'd take the standard lower-division English courses like the
>> rest of us) would take English 10, which of course was called
>> Bonehead English.
>>
>> Mind you, this was nearly sixty years ago; I don't know what they
>> do now.
>>
>When I went to college, we were required to take an Honors Physics
>course which was real physics without using calculus.  The art
>majors were not interested in the course until they figured out
>it helped them with their art which was mostly drawing and
>painting.

We did not, thank heaven, have to use calculus.  Just algebra.
At which I was not very good either.

I know I've told this story before, but it's been a while.  If
you remember it from last time, hit 'n' now.

I was living in a rooming house where we did our own cooking.
There was a kitchen on the ground floor and another (small)
kitchen on the third floor, where I lived.  One of my housemates
was not only taking Physics 10 when I was, but we had the same
section with the same TA.  So we got the same problem sets, which
the TA handed out at the Tuesday section and got back at the
Thursday section.

So every Wednesday evening she and I would settle down in the
third-floor kitchen and do the problem sets.  She had, and knew
how to use, a slide rule.  I didn't.  

So we would both read the problem, and I would set up the
equation, and she would solve it with her slide rule.  We would
thus have exactly the same answers on our problem sets, and get
the same grades on them.  We got some credit toward our final
grade from the problem sets, more from the midterm, and a lot
more from the final.

Came the final, and we were put into a much larger room than we'd
taken the class in, so we could be separated from one another by
several seats; standard procedure.  Memory tells me now that
there were several hundred problems to solve; it was probably
more like 100.  And there I sat, with no slide rule, just basic
arithmetic, at which I have always stunk.  (And there were no
electronic calculators, back in the early 1950s.)

After a moment of despair, I reasoned, "Well, this is a physics
class, not a math class, so if I set up all the equations and
then solve as many as there's time for by brute force and scratch
paper, I'll get at least partial credit."  So I did that.  I got
maybe halfway through the arithmetic by time's end.  Meanwhile,
my housemate was doing whatever she did, armed with her slide
rule.

Came the final, I got an A, she got a C.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#524641

Fromjmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com>
Date2015-10-05 13:02 +0000
Message-ID<PM0005215B50CBB539@aca40732.ipt.aol.com>
In reply to#524520
Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <PM00052148602F2733@aca41f97.ipt.aol.com>,
> jmfbahciv  <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> In article <mur018$5ei$1@panix3.panix.com>,
>>> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>In article <nvnzI5.15Dv@kithrup.com>,
>>>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
>>>>
>>>>> I managed to get an A in my one physics course (Physics 10, aka
>>>>> Bonehead Physics), but I do not understand anything past Newton.
>>>>> I haven't had to.  I take it on faith.
>>>>
>>>>Did you drop a '1' off the end of that, or was the course really
>>>>"Physics [ten]?"
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>>> Its official title, I think, was "physics for Humanities Majors".
>>> Everybody enrolled in the College of Letters and Sciences, who
>>> wasn't actually majoring in a science, had to take it.  In a
>>> similar way, those majoring in math or sciences, if they couldn't
>>> pass a basic entrance exam in written English (in which case
>>> they'd take the standard lower-division English courses like the
>>> rest of us) would take English 10, which of course was called
>>> Bonehead English.
>>>
>>> Mind you, this was nearly sixty years ago; I don't know what they
>>> do now.
>>>
>>When I went to college, we were required to take an Honors Physics
>>course which was real physics without using calculus.  The art
>>majors were not interested in the course until they figured out
>>it helped them with their art which was mostly drawing and
>>painting.
>
> We did not, thank heaven, have to use calculus.  Just algebra.
> At which I was not very good either.
>
> I know I've told this story before, but it's been a while.  If
> you remember it from last time, hit 'n' now.
>
> I was living in a rooming house where we did our own cooking.
> There was a kitchen on the ground floor and another (small)
> kitchen on the third floor, where I lived.  One of my housemates
> was not only taking Physics 10 when I was, but we had the same
> section with the same TA.  So we got the same problem sets, which
> the TA handed out at the Tuesday section and got back at the
> Thursday section.
>
> So every Wednesday evening she and I would settle down in the
> third-floor kitchen and do the problem sets.  She had, and knew
> how to use, a slide rule.  I didn't.
>
> So we would both read the problem, and I would set up the
> equation, and she would solve it with her slide rule.  We would
> thus have exactly the same answers on our problem sets, and get
> the same grades on them.  We got some credit toward our final
> grade from the problem sets, more from the midterm, and a lot
> more from the final.
>
> Came the final, and we were put into a much larger room than we'd
> taken the class in, so we could be separated from one another by
> several seats; standard procedure.  Memory tells me now that
> there were several hundred problems to solve; it was probably
> more like 100.  And there I sat, with no slide rule, just basic
> arithmetic, at which I have always stunk.  (And there were no
> electronic calculators, back in the early 1950s.)
>
> After a moment of despair, I reasoned, "Well, this is a physics
> class, not a math class, so if I set up all the equations and
> then solve as many as there's time for by brute force and scratch
> paper, I'll get at least partial credit."  So I did that.

That's how engineers do it :-).  Crunching numbers is left
as an exercise for computers.  I always thought that computers
were invented so engineers didn't have to do arithmetic. ;-)

>  I got
> maybe halfway through the arithmetic by time's end.  Meanwhile,
> my housemate was doing whatever she did, armed with her slide
> rule.
>
> Came the final, I got an A, she got a C.

It's interesting how diffeent approaches to the same problems
produce different results.

/BAH

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#524646

Fromdjheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Date2015-10-05 14:39 +0000
Message-ID<nvr4p3.1C3I@kithrup.com>
In reply to#524641
In article <PM0005215B50CBB539@aca40732.ipt.aol.com>,
jmfbahciv  <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <PM00052148602F2733@aca41f97.ipt.aol.com>,
>> jmfbahciv  <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>> In article <mur018$5ei$1@panix3.panix.com>,
>>>> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>In article <nvnzI5.15Dv@kithrup.com>,
>>>>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I managed to get an A in my one physics course (Physics 10, aka
>>>>>> Bonehead Physics), but I do not understand anything past Newton.
>>>>>> I haven't had to.  I take it on faith.
>>>>>
>>>>>Did you drop a '1' off the end of that, or was the course really
>>>>>"Physics [ten]?"
>>>>
>>>> Yes.
>>>>
>>>> Its official title, I think, was "physics for Humanities Majors".
>>>> Everybody enrolled in the College of Letters and Sciences, who
>>>> wasn't actually majoring in a science, had to take it.  In a
>>>> similar way, those majoring in math or sciences, if they couldn't
>>>> pass a basic entrance exam in written English (in which case
>>>> they'd take the standard lower-division English courses like the
>>>> rest of us) would take English 10, which of course was called
>>>> Bonehead English.
>>>>
>>>> Mind you, this was nearly sixty years ago; I don't know what they
>>>> do now.
>>>>
>>>When I went to college, we were required to take an Honors Physics
>>>course which was real physics without using calculus.  The art
>>>majors were not interested in the course until they figured out
>>>it helped them with their art which was mostly drawing and
>>>painting.
>>
>> We did not, thank heaven, have to use calculus.  Just algebra.
>> At which I was not very good either.
>>
>> I know I've told this story before, but it's been a while.  If
>> you remember it from last time, hit 'n' now.
>>
>> I was living in a rooming house where we did our own cooking.
>> There was a kitchen on the ground floor and another (small)
>> kitchen on the third floor, where I lived.  One of my housemates
>> was not only taking Physics 10 when I was, but we had the same
>> section with the same TA.  So we got the same problem sets, which
>> the TA handed out at the Tuesday section and got back at the
>> Thursday section.
>>
>> So every Wednesday evening she and I would settle down in the
>> third-floor kitchen and do the problem sets.  She had, and knew
>> how to use, a slide rule.  I didn't.
>>
>> So we would both read the problem, and I would set up the
>> equation, and she would solve it with her slide rule.  We would
>> thus have exactly the same answers on our problem sets, and get
>> the same grades on them.  We got some credit toward our final
>> grade from the problem sets, more from the midterm, and a lot
>> more from the final.
>>
>> Came the final, and we were put into a much larger room than we'd
>> taken the class in, so we could be separated from one another by
>> several seats; standard procedure.  Memory tells me now that
>> there were several hundred problems to solve; it was probably
>> more like 100.  And there I sat, with no slide rule, just basic
>> arithmetic, at which I have always stunk.  (And there were no
>> electronic calculators, back in the early 1950s.)
>>
>> After a moment of despair, I reasoned, "Well, this is a physics
>> class, not a math class, so if I set up all the equations and
>> then solve as many as there's time for by brute force and scratch
>> paper, I'll get at least partial credit."  So I did that.
>
>That's how engineers do it :-).  Crunching numbers is left
>as an exercise for computers.  I always thought that computers
>were invented so engineers didn't have to do arithmetic. ;-)

Well, the *original* intention was so that US Army artillery
personnel didn't have to use arithmetic.
>
>>  I got
>> maybe halfway through the arithmetic by time's end.  Meanwhile,
>> my housemate was doing whatever she did, armed with her slide
>> rule.
>>
>> Came the final, I got an A, she got a C.
>
>It's interesting how diffeent approaches to the same problems
>produce different results.

I can only assume that because I did the setting-up, she didn't
get enough practice in that.  A lesson to all of us, I guess.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
>/BAH

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#524880

Fromjmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com>
Date2015-10-06 13:34 +0000
Message-ID<PM0005216FEF28A86B@aca41669.ipt.aol.com>
In reply to#524646
Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <PM0005215B50CBB539@aca40732.ipt.aol.com>,
> jmfbahciv  <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> In article <PM00052148602F2733@aca41f97.ipt.aol.com>,
>>> jmfbahciv  <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>> In article <mur018$5ei$1@panix3.panix.com>,
>>>>> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>In article <nvnzI5.15Dv@kithrup.com>,
>>>>>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I managed to get an A in my one physics course (Physics 10, aka
>>>>>>> Bonehead Physics), but I do not understand anything past Newton.
>>>>>>> I haven't had to.  I take it on faith.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Did you drop a '1' off the end of that, or was the course really
>>>>>>"Physics [ten]?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Its official title, I think, was "physics for Humanities Majors".
>>>>> Everybody enrolled in the College of Letters and Sciences, who
>>>>> wasn't actually majoring in a science, had to take it.  In a
>>>>> similar way, those majoring in math or sciences, if they couldn't
>>>>> pass a basic entrance exam in written English (in which case
>>>>> they'd take the standard lower-division English courses like the
>>>>> rest of us) would take English 10, which of course was called
>>>>> Bonehead English.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mind you, this was nearly sixty years ago; I don't know what they
>>>>> do now.
>>>>>
>>>>When I went to college, we were required to take an Honors Physics
>>>>course which was real physics without using calculus.  The art
>>>>majors were not interested in the course until they figured out
>>>>it helped them with their art which was mostly drawing and
>>>>painting.
>>>
>>> We did not, thank heaven, have to use calculus.  Just algebra.
>>> At which I was not very good either.
>>>
>>> I know I've told this story before, but it's been a while.  If
>>> you remember it from last time, hit 'n' now.
>>>
>>> I was living in a rooming house where we did our own cooking.
>>> There was a kitchen on the ground floor and another (small)
>>> kitchen on the third floor, where I lived.  One of my housemates
>>> was not only taking Physics 10 when I was, but we had the same
>>> section with the same TA.  So we got the same problem sets, which
>>> the TA handed out at the Tuesday section and got back at the
>>> Thursday section.
>>>
>>> So every Wednesday evening she and I would settle down in the
>>> third-floor kitchen and do the problem sets.  She had, and knew
>>> how to use, a slide rule.  I didn't.
>>>
>>> So we would both read the problem, and I would set up the
>>> equation, and she would solve it with her slide rule.  We would
>>> thus have exactly the same answers on our problem sets, and get
>>> the same grades on them.  We got some credit toward our final
>>> grade from the problem sets, more from the midterm, and a lot
>>> more from the final.
>>>
>>> Came the final, and we were put into a much larger room than we'd
>>> taken the class in, so we could be separated from one another by
>>> several seats; standard procedure.  Memory tells me now that
>>> there were several hundred problems to solve; it was probably
>>> more like 100.  And there I sat, with no slide rule, just basic
>>> arithmetic, at which I have always stunk.  (And there were no
>>> electronic calculators, back in the early 1950s.)
>>>
>>> After a moment of despair, I reasoned, "Well, this is a physics
>>> class, not a math class, so if I set up all the equations and
>>> then solve as many as there's time for by brute force and scratch
>>> paper, I'll get at least partial credit."  So I did that.
>>
>>That's how engineers do it :-).  Crunching numbers is left
>>as an exercise for computers.  I always thought that computers
>>were invented so engineers didn't have to do arithmetic. ;-)
>
> Well, the *original* intention was so that US Army artillery
> personnel didn't have to use arithmetic.

They had tables.  I had the thought when I was taking a class
in circuit analysis; it was a humorous thought which got me
through the problem sets.  That class banned use of the
programming functions of calculators so all calculations had
to be done "by hand".  At least the idiot instructor didn't
insist on banning calculators.  He gave a final which took him
3 hours to complete (he had a computer to help) but we only
had 2 hours for the class.  Then he had the balls to grade
on the basis of right/wrong numerical answer, not the set up
of the problems.

>>
>>>  I got
>>> maybe halfway through the arithmetic by time's end.  Meanwhile,
>>> my housemate was doing whatever she did, armed with her slide
>>> rule.
>>>
>>> Came the final, I got an A, she got a C.
>>
>>It's interesting how diffeent approaches to the same problems
>>produce different results.
>
> I can only assume that because I did the setting-up, she didn't
> get enough practice in that.  A lesson to all of us, I guess.

She probably had problems w.r.t. setup.  There are tasks which
require predetermined step-by-step operation so she would have
been good at doing that work but would have had you climbing
walls and trying to find short-cuts, which was not part of the
task :-).

Based on your approach to doing work, you might enjoy reading
_Boyd_ by Robert Coram.


/BAH

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#524897

Fromdjheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Date2015-10-06 14:24 +0000
Message-ID<nvsyo0.yCL@kithrup.com>
In reply to#524880
In article <PM0005216FEF28A86B@aca41669.ipt.aol.com>,
jmfbahciv  <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <PM0005215B50CBB539@aca40732.ipt.aol.com>,
>> jmfbahciv  <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>> In article <PM00052148602F2733@aca41f97.ipt.aol.com>,
>>>> jmfbahciv  <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>> In article <mur018$5ei$1@panix3.panix.com>,
>>>>>> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>In article <nvnzI5.15Dv@kithrup.com>,
>>>>>>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I managed to get an A in my one physics course (Physics 10, aka
>>>>>>>> Bonehead Physics), but I do not understand anything past Newton.
>>>>>>>> I haven't had to.  I take it on faith.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Did you drop a '1' off the end of that, or was the course really
>>>>>>>"Physics [ten]?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Its official title, I think, was "physics for Humanities Majors".
>>>>>> Everybody enrolled in the College of Letters and Sciences, who
>>>>>> wasn't actually majoring in a science, had to take it.  In a
>>>>>> similar way, those majoring in math or sciences, if they couldn't
>>>>>> pass a basic entrance exam in written English (in which case
>>>>>> they'd take the standard lower-division English courses like the
>>>>>> rest of us) would take English 10, which of course was called
>>>>>> Bonehead English.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mind you, this was nearly sixty years ago; I don't know what they
>>>>>> do now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>When I went to college, we were required to take an Honors Physics
>>>>>course which was real physics without using calculus.  The art
>>>>>majors were not interested in the course until they figured out
>>>>>it helped them with their art which was mostly drawing and
>>>>>painting.
>>>>
>>>> We did not, thank heaven, have to use calculus.  Just algebra.
>>>> At which I was not very good either.
>>>>
>>>> I know I've told this story before, but it's been a while.  If
>>>> you remember it from last time, hit 'n' now.
>>>>
>>>> I was living in a rooming house where we did our own cooking.
>>>> There was a kitchen on the ground floor and another (small)
>>>> kitchen on the third floor, where I lived.  One of my housemates
>>>> was not only taking Physics 10 when I was, but we had the same
>>>> section with the same TA.  So we got the same problem sets, which
>>>> the TA handed out at the Tuesday section and got back at the
>>>> Thursday section.
>>>>
>>>> So every Wednesday evening she and I would settle down in the
>>>> third-floor kitchen and do the problem sets.  She had, and knew
>>>> how to use, a slide rule.  I didn't.
>>>>
>>>> So we would both read the problem, and I would set up the
>>>> equation, and she would solve it with her slide rule.  We would
>>>> thus have exactly the same answers on our problem sets, and get
>>>> the same grades on them.  We got some credit toward our final
>>>> grade from the problem sets, more from the midterm, and a lot
>>>> more from the final.
>>>>
>>>> Came the final, and we were put into a much larger room than we'd
>>>> taken the class in, so we could be separated from one another by
>>>> several seats; standard procedure.  Memory tells me now that
>>>> there were several hundred problems to solve; it was probably
>>>> more like 100.  And there I sat, with no slide rule, just basic
>>>> arithmetic, at which I have always stunk.  (And there were no
>>>> electronic calculators, back in the early 1950s.)
>>>>
>>>> After a moment of despair, I reasoned, "Well, this is a physics
>>>> class, not a math class, so if I set up all the equations and
>>>> then solve as many as there's time for by brute force and scratch
>>>> paper, I'll get at least partial credit."  So I did that.
>>>
>>>That's how engineers do it :-).  Crunching numbers is left
>>>as an exercise for computers.  I always thought that computers
>>>were invented so engineers didn't have to do arithmetic. ;-)
>>
>> Well, the *original* intention was so that US Army artillery
>> personnel didn't have to use arithmetic.
>
>They had tables.  I had the thought when I was taking a class
>in circuit analysis; it was a humorous thought which got me
>through the problem sets.  That class banned use of the
>programming functions of calculators so all calculations had
>to be done "by hand".  At least the idiot instructor didn't
>insist on banning calculators.  He gave a final which took him
>3 hours to complete (he had a computer to help) but we only
>had 2 hours for the class.  Then he had the balls to grade
>on the basis of right/wrong numerical answer, not the set up
>of the problems.
>
>>>
>>>>  I got
>>>> maybe halfway through the arithmetic by time's end.  Meanwhile,
>>>> my housemate was doing whatever she did, armed with her slide
>>>> rule.
>>>>
>>>> Came the final, I got an A, she got a C.
>>>
>>>It's interesting how diffeent approaches to the same problems
>>>produce different results.
>>
>> I can only assume that because I did the setting-up, she didn't
>> get enough practice in that.  A lesson to all of us, I guess.
>
>She probably had problems w.r.t. setup.  There are tasks which
>require predetermined step-by-step operation so she would have
>been good at doing that work but would have had you climbing
>walls and trying to find short-cuts, which was not part of the
>task :-).
>
>Based on your approach to doing work, you might enjoy reading
>_Boyd_ by Robert Coram.

Bookmarked; my husband will probably be more interested than I
would; but it's cheap used from Amazon, so maybe sometime.
Thanks.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#525067

Fromjmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com>
Date2015-10-07 13:18 +0000
Message-ID<PM00052183C1540671@aca410b9.ipt.aol.com>
In reply to#524897
Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <PM0005216FEF28A86B@aca41669.ipt.aol.com>,
> jmfbahciv  <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

<snip>

>>> I can only assume that because I did the setting-up, she didn't
>>> get enough practice in that.  A lesson to all of us, I guess.
>>
>>She probably had problems w.r.t. setup.  There are tasks which
>>require predetermined step-by-step operation so she would have
>>been good at doing that work but would have had you climbing
>>walls and trying to find short-cuts, which was not part of the
>>task :-).
>>
>>Based on your approach to doing work, you might enjoy reading
>>_Boyd_ by Robert Coram.
>
> Bookmarked; my husband will probably be more interested than I
> would; but it's cheap used from Amazon, so maybe sometime.
> Thanks.
>
Read the Appenidx; the rest of the book is how that thinking
style evolved.

/BAH

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#525168

FromYousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com>
Date2015-10-07 19:27 -0400
Message-ID<5K2dnZbXR87wN4jLnZ2dnUU7-TmdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#524880
On 06/10/2015 9:34 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
> They had tables.  I had the thought when I was taking a class
> in circuit analysis; it was a humorous thought which got me
> through the problem sets.  That class banned use of the
> programming functions of calculators so all calculations had
> to be done "by hand".  At least the idiot instructor didn't
> insist on banning calculators.  He gave a final which took him
> 3 hours to complete (he had a computer to help) but we only
> had 2 hours for the class.  Then he had the balls to grade
> on the basis of right/wrong numerical answer, not the set up
> of the problems.

I think all of us who went through engineering in the 80's and 90's had 
to deal with brain-dead method of teaching. The teachers weren't ready 
yet for the new world of calculators and computers, and they were 
actively resisting it. People in the late 90's and beyond probably 
didn't have to go through this problem.

	Yousuf Khan

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#525172

From"Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu>
Date2015-10-07 19:43 -0400
Message-ID<152oyxjh7lg7c$.1me3hj516anfy.dlg@40tude.net>
In reply to#525168
On Wed, 7 Oct 2015 19:27:43 -0400, Yousuf Khan
<bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> wrote
in<news:5K2dnZbXR87wN4jLnZ2dnUU7-TmdnZ2d@giganews.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written,sci.physics:

> On 06/10/2015 9:34 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:

>> They had tables.  I had the thought when I was taking a
>> class in circuit analysis; it was a humorous thought
>> which got me through the problem sets.  That class
>> banned use of the programming functions of calculators
>> so all calculations had to be done "by hand".  At least
>> the idiot instructor didn't insist on banning
>> calculators.  He gave a final which took him 3 hours to
>> complete (he had a computer to help) but we only had 2
>> hours for the class.  Then he had the balls to grade on
>> the basis of right/wrong numerical answer, not the set
>> up of the problems.

> I think all of us who went through engineering in the
> 80's and 90's had to deal with brain-dead method of
> teaching. The teachers weren't ready yet for the new
> world of calculators and computers, and they were
> actively resisting it. People in the late 90's and
> beyond probably didn't have to go through this problem.

It wasn’t as simple as you make out.  What BAH described is
indeed brain-dead, but in a calculus class at the urban
university where I taught you could not guarantee that
every student could even afford a programmable calculator,
let alone know how to use one.  And at the other extreme
you’d have a student or three who had calculators capable
of some symbolic manipulation.  It's difficult to design
fair exams under those circumstances, to put it mildly.  My
solution was to insist on exact answers (e.g., 2π, not some
decimal approximation); to insist that students show enough
work for me to follow their reasoning; and to award
considerable partial credit based on the reasoning (e.g., 8
or 9 out of 10 for a minor computational error, unless it
led to an what should have been an obviously absurd
result).  In the earlier part of that period I generally
made the arithmetic ‘nice’ and banned calculators
altogether; later on, as they became more common, I worried
less about making the arithmetic nice and allowed any
calculator that did not do symbolic manipulations.

Brian
-- 
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties.  The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

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#525244

FromGreg Goss <gossg@gossg.org>
Date2015-10-08 01:58 -0600
Message-ID<d7mm0aF4l4jU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#525168
Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> wrote:

>I think all of us who went through engineering in the 80's and 90's had 
>to deal with brain-dead method of teaching. The teachers weren't ready 
>yet for the new world of calculators and computers, and they were 
>actively resisting it. People in the late 90's and beyond probably 
>didn't have to go through this problem.

80s and 90s?  I got a scientific calculator in grade 10 in 1973.
There was resistance to using it up to 75.  I never ran into any
objections to using it in college after 1975.

The "rubber book" I got cheap in 1975 because it was the previous
edition was, I think, the last edition to include log and trig tables.
The next edition was a fifth the size because you were expected to do
trig on your calculator.

Was there still resistance in the 80s to calculators?  Really?  Where?
-- 
We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

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