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The Fourth Dimension

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  The Fourth Dimension The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-17 12:04 -0700
    Re: The Fourth Dimension gilber34 <invalid@invalid.com> - 2015-09-17 14:07 -0500
    Re: The Fourth Dimension The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-17 13:31 -0700
      Re: The Fourth Dimension Rock Brentwood <federation2005@netzero.com> - 2015-09-18 13:07 -0700
        Re: The Fourth Dimension Rock Brentwood <federation2005@netzero.com> - 2015-09-18 13:13 -0700
    Re: The Fourth Dimension Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 15:58 -0500
      Re: The Fourth Dimension The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-17 14:40 -0700
        dimension sAm noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 16:30 -0700
        Re: The Fourth Dimension benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 01:05 -0400
          Re: The Fourth Dimension The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-17 22:42 -0700
          Re: The Fourth Dimension The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-17 23:01 -0700
            Re: The Fourth Dimension Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 08:40 +0200
              Re: The Fourth Dimension The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-17 23:59 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Dimension Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 10:28 +0200
                  free, but not neccesarily cheap noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 11:15 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Dimension Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 08:23 -0500
                  Re: The Fourth Dimension Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 15:41 +0200
                  Re: The Fourth Dimension The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-18 10:56 -0700
        Re: The Fourth Dimension Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 08:20 -0500
    Re: The Fourth Dimension Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 08:20 +0200
      Re: The Fourth Dimension Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 11:19 +0200

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#521672 — The Fourth Dimension

Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?

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#521674

On 9/17/2015 2:04 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
>

Al Gore.

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#521698

Koobee Wublee wrote:
> 
> On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 12:04:28 PM UTC-7, The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> > Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._G._Wells
> 
> In
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Time_Machine



Are you saying that Albert Einstein got his relativity Time and Fourth Dimension idea from reading a ...science fiction book????

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#521855

On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 3:31:09 PM UTC-5, The Starmaker wrote:
> Koobee Wublee wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 12:04:28 PM UTC-7, The Starmaker wrote:
> > > Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._G._Wells
> > In
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Time_Machine
> Are you saying that Albert Einstein got his relativity Time and Fourth Dimension idea from reading a ...science fiction book????

As everybody knows Einstein was extremely put off by the use of 4D chrono-geometry for relativity and had to be dragged kicking and screaming into accepting the notion. It was Minkowski (his math professor) who started using it -- in a paper published in 1908 -- not Einstein (who in fact co-published a series of papers with Laub on the very same topic as Minkowski's paper (the relativistic version of the equations for constitutive media in electromagnetic theory)).

As far as where the idea stems from -- like it or not -- that's Galileo (even despite himself). For the following reason:

Euclidean 3D geometry is founded on 3 degrees of translational symmetry and 3 degrees of reorientation symmetry. Likewise a single time dimension possesses it 1 degree of (translation) symmetry. But the instant you pose any symmetry law that involves both space and time you have a unified chrono-geometry and it was Galileo who first posed the 3 degrees of "boost" symmetry (hence the name "Galilean transformation") by virtue of saying that motion was relative. That forces the geometry to be 4 dimensional.

In fact, the reason Newton was so dead set against the idea of motion being relative is exactly that: it makes any formulation based on 3D geometry impossible since the geometry's most fundamental undefined (the "point") ceases to have any meaning if motion is relative. (i.e. what counts as the "same point" at two different times if you don't know when you're moving or not).

So for that reason Newton's law of inertia was stated in two parts: one for the stationary case and the other for the moving case, while never acknowledging anywhere in his treatment that the two cases were at all equivalent.

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#521857

On Friday, September 18, 2015 at 3:07:20 PM UTC-5, Rock Brentwood wrote:
> It was Minkowski (his math professor) who started using it --
> in a paper published in 1908 -- not Einstein
> (who in fact co-published a series of papers with Laub on the very same
> topic as Minkowski's paper...)

... that continued to use 3D vector notation.

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#521708

On 9/17/15 2:04 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
>

   Nature is the way she is, and we humans are, through observation and
   experiment discovering how she works. Three spacial and one temporal
   dimension fit the observations.



-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

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#521722

Sam Wormley wrote:
> 
> On 9/17/15 2:04 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> > Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
> >
> 
>    Nature is the way she is, and we humans are, through observation and
>    experiment discovering how she works. Three spacial and one temporal
>    dimension fit the observations.
> 


Sorry, I'm not aware of any "observation and experiment" of  Three
spacial and one temporal
dimension fit *any* observations or experiments.


Are you gettin your info from...a science fiction story? I didn't read
the book The Time Machine. I saw it on teevee..

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#521738 — dimension sAm

Minkowski did quite a bit of interesting, n-d stuff,
but this was just a fuck-up, then he died at 43.

it is simply a phase-space, and there is never
any need to spatialize time, if you have a flipbook.

Sam just cannot say, boo,
boo-hoo, or mwa-ha-ha

> Sorry, I'm not aware of any "observation and experiment" of  Three
> spacial and one temporal
> dimension fit *any* observations or experiments.
> 
> 
> Are you gettin your info from...a science fiction story? I didn't read
> the book The Time Machine. I saw it on teevee..

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#521780

On 09/17/2015 05:40 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> Sam Wormley wrote:
>>
>> On 9/17/15 2:04 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
>>> Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
>>>
>>
>>     Nature is the way she is, and we humans are, through observation and
>>     experiment discovering how she works. Three spacial and one temporal
>>     dimension fit the observations.
>>
>
>
> Sorry, I'm not aware of any "observation and experiment" of  Three
> spacial and one temporal
> dimension fit *any* observations or experiments.
>
>
> Are you gettin your info from...a science fiction story? I didn't read
> the book The Time Machine. I saw it on teevee..

It's true "Starmaker". A rotating umbrella can make you travel time!

Go read the book "flatland" and then come back here and discuss dimensions.



-- 
         ___           ___           ___            ___
        /\  \         /\  \         /\__\          /\  \
       /::\  \       /::\  \       /::|  |         \:\  \
      /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:|:|  |     ___ /::\__\
     /::\~\:\__\   /::\~\:\  \   /:/|:|  |__  /\  /:/\/__/
    /:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/  /
    \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
     \:\ \::/  /   \:\ \:\__\       |:/:/  /    \/__/
      \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
       \_:/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
                      \/__/         \/__/

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#521782

benj wrote:
> 
> On 09/17/2015 05:40 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> > Sam Wormley wrote:
> >>
> >> On 9/17/15 2:04 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> >>> Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
> >>>
> >>
> >>     Nature is the way she is, and we humans are, through observation and
> >>     experiment discovering how she works. Three spacial and one temporal
> >>     dimension fit the observations.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Sorry, I'm not aware of any "observation and experiment" of  Three
> > spacial and one temporal
> > dimension fit *any* observations or experiments.
> >
> >
> > Are you gettin your info from...a science fiction story? I didn't read
> > the book The Time Machine. I saw it on teevee..
> 
> It's true "Starmaker". A rotating umbrella can make you travel time!
> 
> Go read the book "flatland" and then come back here and discuss dimensions.


Haven't you heard, i don't read 'science fiction' books...

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#521784

benj wrote:
> 
> On 09/17/2015 05:40 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> > Sam Wormley wrote:
> >>
> >> On 9/17/15 2:04 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> >>> Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
> >>>
> >>
> >>     Nature is the way she is, and we humans are, through observation and
> >>     experiment discovering how she works. Three spacial and one temporal
> >>     dimension fit the observations.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Sorry, I'm not aware of any "observation and experiment" of  Three
> > spacial and one temporal
> > dimension fit *any* observations or experiments.
> >
> >
> > Are you gettin your info from...a science fiction story? I didn't read
> > the book The Time Machine. I saw it on teevee..
> 
> It's true "Starmaker". A rotating umbrella can make you travel time!
> 
> Go read the book "flatland" and then come back here and discuss dimensions.


It's about only three dimensions, not a fourth and Time.


Go read the book "flatland" and then come back here ...

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#521788

Dne 18/09/2015 v 08:01 The Starmaker napsal(a):

> 
> It's about only three dimensions, not a fourth and Time.
> 
Where did you come to 4 dimensions and time ?
where are they used ?

-- 
Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )

Knowledge makes great men humble, but small men arrogant.

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#521789

Poutnik wrote:
> 
> Dne 18/09/2015 v 08:01 The Starmaker napsal(a):
> 
> >
> > It's about only three dimensions, not a fourth and Time.
> >
> Where did you come to 4 dimensions and time ?
> where are they used ?
> 


I asked the question: Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that Time is in it?


The reason why I asked is because timeline wise, the earliest mentioned was H.G. Wells in his
science fiction book The Time Machine, 1895. The, next in the timeline is Albert Einstein relativity ten lears later 1905.



Now, I'm wondering timeline wise, who was before H.G. Wells? Or, is it a fact this whole 
"4 dimensions and time" the foundation is just ...science fiction.


In other words, 4 dimensions and time is not Science, it's science fiction.


Unelss of course you can come up with '4 dimensions and time' before H.G. Wells. 

Who invented 4 dimensions and time?


I'll repeat the original question: "Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?" 


Was it H.G Wells, or was it somebody before him?

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#521790

On 09/18/2015 08:59 AM, The Starmaker wrote:
> Poutnik wrote:
>>
>>>
>> Where did you come to 4 dimensions and time ?
>> where are they used ?
> 
> I asked the question: Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that Time is in it?

what exactly do you mean by "fourth dimension and that Time is in it"


> 
> In other words, 4 dimensions and time is not Science, it's science fiction.

I agree, it's science fiction that neither SR nor GR uses.
SR/GR uses 4 dimensions, when the fourth dimension is time,
recalculated to path length of the light in vacuum.

-- 
Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )

Knowledge makes a great man humble, but a small man arrogant.

Eventual Wikipedia articles are provided with intention
of a convenient reference, not as an evidence, argument,
and usually not as a primary source of my knowledge.

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#521832 — free, but not neccesarily cheap

if Minkowski had used a flipbook,
he could have had two spatial & one time; since,
apparently, he did not do that,
we have been stuck with a horrible nonsequiter
of spatialixing time.

mainly, though, it is because of newton's fuck-up
with the rockton or photon,
a word taht was entirely servicable before & ever after
to denote a quantum of wave-action through the atoms of free space

> I agree, it's science fiction that neither SR nor GR uses.
> SR/GR uses 4 dimensions, when the fourth dimension is time,
> recalculated to path length of the light in vacuum.

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#521795

On 9/18/15 1:59 AM, The Starmaker wrote:
> Wells in his science fiction book The Time Machine, 1895.

   Just hold on a minute -- you said in an earlier posting that you don't
   read science fiction books.

   Which is it, do you or don't you?


-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

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#521800

On 09/18/2015 03:23 PM, Sam Wormley wrote:
> On 9/18/15 1:59 AM, The Starmaker wrote:
>> Wells in his science fiction book The Time Machine, 1895.
> 
>    Just hold on a minute -- you said in an earlier posting that you don't
>    read science fiction books.
> 
>    Which is it, do you or don't you?
> 
Perhaps he does not, but he did. :-)

-- 
Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )

Knowledge makes a great man humble, but a small man arrogant.

Eventual Wikipedia articles are provided with intention
of a convenient reference, not as an evidence, argument,
and usually not as a primary source of my knowledge.

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#521823

Sam Wormley wrote:
> 
> On 9/18/15 1:59 AM, The Starmaker wrote:
> > Wells in his science fiction book The Time Machine, 1895.
> 
>    Just hold on a minute -- you said in an earlier posting that you don't
>    read science fiction books.
> 
>    Which is it, do you or don't you?


I don't read sceince fiction books or any fiction books for that matter.

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#521794

On 9/17/15 4:40 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> Sorry, I'm not aware of any "observation and experiment" of  Three
> spacial and one temporal dimension fit*any*  observations or
> experiments.



   I so sorry, I should have pointed out that GPS receivers measure and
   spit out values for three spacial and one temporal dimension.


-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

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#521786

Dne 17/09/2015 v 21:04 The Starmaker napsal(a):

> Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
> 
One popular SR book ( Spacetime physics I guess )

comes with the analogy
there was once upon the time a weird city,
where East West distances were measured in metres,
while North south ones in the sacred units.

And that there were 2 groups of surveyors that hated each other.
the day one using compass, the night one using stars.

And that was problem, as "day north" was not "night north"

The data and maps of both groups were not compatible,
as N-S and E-W distances they measured did not fit each other
and maps of the city were rotated.

It was a big problem, until came one surveyor,
that secretly studied in both surveyor schools.

And this guy came with deadly heretic idea
to recalculate the value in sacred units into meters.

Using unified calculations he found interesting invariants ,
values being the same in both systems, and transformations,
comparing data from both groups.

It is funny, until one realizes,
this weird city is Earth
the sacred unit is second.
Not fitting distances are length contraction and time dilation
Not fitting maps are reality in different inertial frames
and the transformation is the Lorentz one.

-- 
Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )

Knowledge makes great men humble, but small men arrogant.

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