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Why Math Rocks

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  Why Math Rocks Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 19:01 -0500
    Re: Why Math Rocks jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-02 01:22 +0000
    Re: Why Math Rocks Fabian Russell <fb@zen.info> - 2016-04-02 06:14 +0000
      Re: Why Math Rocks Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 08:23 +0200
        Re: Why Math Rocks Fabian Russell <fb@zen.info> - 2016-04-02 12:43 +0000
          Re: Why Math Rocks Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 15:13 +0200
            Re: Why Math Rocks Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 15:38 +0200
              Re: Why Math Rocks Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 15:46 +0200
            Re: Why Math Rocks Fabian Russell <fb@zen.info> - 2016-04-02 18:48 +0000
              Re: Why Math Rocks Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 21:12 +0200
                Re: Why Math Rocks Fabian Russell <fb@zen.info> - 2016-04-02 19:28 +0000
                  Re: Why Math Rocks Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 22:27 +0200
                    Re: Why Math Rocks Fabian Russell <fb@zen.info> - 2016-04-04 10:55 +0000
                      Re: Why Math Rocks Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 19:19 +0200
                        Re: Why Math Rocks Fabian Russell <fb@zen.info> - 2016-04-05 08:53 +0000
                          Re: Why Math Rocks Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-05 10:44 -0500
                            Re: Why Math Rocks Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 23:43 +0200
                              Re: Why Math Rocks Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-05 17:25 -0500
                                Re: Why Math Rocks Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 07:50 +0200
                          Re: Why Math Rocks Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 23:16 +0200
                          Re: Why Math Rocks Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 17:10 -0500
                            Re: Why Math Rocks Fabian Russell <fb@zen.info> - 2016-04-10 18:44 +0000
                              Re: Why Math Rocks Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:49 +0200
                                Re: Why Math Rocks Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:58 +0200
          Re: Why Math Rocks Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 16:23 +0200
      Re: Why Math Rocks Mahipal <mahipal7638@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 08:02 -0700
        Re: Why Math Rocks benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 12:26 -0400
    Why Math Rocks HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 06:18 -0700
      Re: Why Math Rocks benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 12:14 -0400
        Re: Why Math Rocks Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-04-03 10:33 +0200
          Re: Why Math Rocks HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-03 04:31 -0700
            Re: Why Math Rocks Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-04-03 14:27 +0200
              Re: Why Math Rocks HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-03 07:29 -0700
                Re: Why Math Rocks benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 00:49 -0400
                  Re: Why Math Rocks HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 04:46 -0700
                    Re: Why Math Rocks benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 13:50 -0400
                Re: Why Math Rocks benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 13:46 -0400
    Re: Why Math Rocks Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-02 09:02 -0500
      Re: Why Math Rocks Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 16:30 +0200
      Re: Why Math Rocks benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 12:27 -0400

Page 2 of 2 — ← Prev page 1 [2]

#568128

On 4/5/2016 3:53 AM, Fabian Russell wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Apr 2016 19:19:01 +0200, Poutnik wrote:
>
>>
>> Math as a language is not weak, but a powerful tool,
>> useful for ( but not limited to ) describing of relations
>> between observed quantities.
>>
>
> The main purpose of science is PREDICTION rather than DESCRIPTION,
> and the inability to solve most equations analytically is a failure
> in prediction, and hence our ability to control the world.

I don't know why you place such importance on being able to find 
ANALYTIC solutions. Computational mathematics is just as relevant and 
useful as analytical mathematics. There is more than one way to skin a 
cat and anyone who worries about the One Way he prefers is being 
obsessive to the point of uselessness, not to mention calcified and 
unteachable.


>
>> Try to develop QED, quantum chemistry or GR without math.
>>
>> What may be weak is math interpretation and implementation.
>>
>> And what definitely is weak is math implementation
>> by degradation to aritmetic over limited set of rational numbers
>> as that is what FPUs do.
>>
>> In fact, FPUs do not know anything about non rational numbers
>> like sqrt(2) or trancendent ones as pi or e.
>>
>> I put aside high level computer languages or SW
>> for symbolic operation over algebraic notations.
>


-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#569494

On Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:10:34 -0500, Odd Bodkin wrote:

> 
> I don't know why you place such importance on being able to find 
> ANALYTIC solutions. Computational mathematics is just as relevant
>

Another one who can't read!

You miss the point of the whole thread, which is "math rocks,"
that is to say, mathematics is powerful and potent.

But the reality is far, far from this because mathematics,
as demonstrated by the utter failure of analytical solutions,
is really quite impotent.

Let's consider finding the roots of a polynomial, a problem
which occurs frequently.

In electronic filter design polynomials of very large order
(e.g. n=100) are frequent.  Such polynomials cannot be solved
analytically and numerical solutions are difficult, especially
when we consider that the already large intervals between digital
floating point numbers become tremendously amplified with
exponents of 100 (x^100).

The simple polynomials that every schoolboy learns in 
elementary school lead to intractable mathematics.
How can we therefore claim that "math rocks?"

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#569497

Dne 10/04/2016 v 20:44 Fabian Russell napsal(a):
> Another one who can't read!
> 
> You miss the point of the whole thread, which is "math rocks,"
> that is to say, mathematics is powerful and potent.
> 
> But the reality is far, far from this because mathematics,
> as demonstrated by the utter failure of analytical solutions,
> is really quite impotent.
> 
> Let's consider finding the roots of a polynomial, a problem
> which occurs frequently.

If an analytical solution does not exist,
not finding it is not a failure.

-- 
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )
Knowledge makes great men humble, but small men arrogant.

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#569499

Dne 10/04/2016 v 20:49 Poutnik napsal(a):
> Dne 10/04/2016 v 20:44 Fabian Russell napsal(a):
>> Another one who can't read!
>>
>> You miss the point of the whole thread, which is "math rocks,"
>> that is to say, mathematics is powerful and potent.
>>
>> But the reality is far, far from this because mathematics,
>> as demonstrated by the utter failure of analytical solutions,
>> is really quite impotent.
>>
>> Let's consider finding the roots of a polynomial, a problem
>> which occurs frequently.
> 
> If an analytical solution does not exist,
> not finding it is not a failure.
> 
As mathematical solutions are superset to analytical solutions,
even failure to find analytical solution
is not failure of mathematics.

-- 
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )
Knowledge makes great men humble, but small men arrogant.

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#567449

Dne 02/04/2016 v 14:43 Fabian Russell napsal(a):

> ALL DE solvers ARE brute force -- no exceptions.

I will illustrate the opposite
on simple numerical DE solving by RK method for y' = f(x,y).

Let solve it for border conditions f(a) = ya, fb(b) = yb
via "shooting" with y'(a) estimation.

RK DE solver shoots twice along 2 estimated y'(a)
and as result gets 2 wrong values of y(b).
Than it starts aim tweaking e.g., by regula falsi method
and relatively few following shootings
finally bring the y(b) error below required limit.

Brute force method would try
via non intelligent schema
possible values of y'(a)
until suddenly the error of y(b) satisfies max error limit.

-- 
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )
Knowledge makes great men humble, but small men arrogant.

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#567456

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 2:15:23 AM UTC-4, Fabian Russell wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 19:01:20 -0500, Sam Wormley wrote:
> 
> > Why Math Rocks
> 
> Mathematicians can set up clear, beautiful, and concise equations
> that cannot be solved.
> 
> This "rocks?"
> 
> Indeed, the vast majority of practical scientific computation
> is performed with crude "brute force" techniques.

Yes, exactly. I have my copy of Numerical Analysis (3rd edition) by
Richard L. Burden and J. Douglas Faires right next to me. Published
1985. O I sure hope its contents are not outdated, or worse, gone out
of style/fashion.

> > http://www.npr.org/
> 
> NPR?  How many women and minorities did they showcase?

That's too funny Fabian. It's on par with ... let me recall...

By the math, it's a 60 minute show. About 10 is product placement
(i.e., corporate sponsors and upcoming self-similar shows, etc.) About
20 minutes will be dedicated to the all-knowing invisible
condescending narrator's voice in polite tone (usually Morgan
Freeman, he gets around a lot; or Oprah). So that leaves 30
minutes. At one-minute per talking head, sitting on his or her
vibrator, adjusting for lighting and wind condition, their worship of
Climate Change as if anything was actually solved in our and our
childrens' childrens lifetimes, or is even possible... some major
allowance for the dancing animated CGI scenes... I estimate about 19
women and minorities they did showcase. All less than 42 years of age.

What do I win? Where's my award, m(y) prize? Ooo... Rainbow Spiral Lollypop.  

So the other day I ventured to watch “What On Earth?” on one of them
always on On ON science channels. So they are going on and on about
some spirals only visible with high definition cameras orbiting
Earth. For twenty minutes they wasted my time. Are they Alien signals?
Are they hieroglyphs? <Comercial Break#1> How long have they existed?
<Comercial Break#2> Messages? What means they? <Comercial Break#3>
Then finally: No. Twenty minutes later they show the farmer and his
hoe hauling vehicle that was making the spirals to collect rainwater.

Now tell me, those writers/producers/directors had no apriori clue
that it was a farming project?! Hell, they showed the farmer.
Interviewed him too. I turned off the TV and will never return to
watch anymore of said show. Who's fooling who?! Whom?! Oye...

-- Mahipal “IPMM... माहिपाल ७६३८: Our life long loving Companion, TV.”

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#567486

On 04/02/2016 11:02 AM, Mahipal wrote:
> On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 2:15:23 AM UTC-4, Fabian Russell wrote:
>> On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 19:01:20 -0500, Sam Wormley wrote:
>>
>>> Why Math Rocks
>>
>> Mathematicians can set up clear, beautiful, and concise equations
>> that cannot be solved.
>>
>> This "rocks?"
>>
>> Indeed, the vast majority of practical scientific computation
>> is performed with crude "brute force" techniques.
>
> Yes, exactly. I have my copy of Numerical Analysis (3rd edition) by
> Richard L. Burden and J. Douglas Faires right next to me. Published
> 1985. O I sure hope its contents are not outdated, or worse, gone out
> of style/fashion.
>
>>> http://www.npr.org/
>>
>> NPR?  How many women and minorities did they showcase?
>
> That's too funny Fabian. It's on par with ... let me recall...
>
> By the math, it's a 60 minute show. About 10 is product placement
> (i.e., corporate sponsors and upcoming self-similar shows, etc.) About
> 20 minutes will be dedicated to the all-knowing invisible
> condescending narrator's voice in polite tone (usually Morgan
> Freeman, he gets around a lot; or Oprah). So that leaves 30
> minutes. At one-minute per talking head, sitting on his or her
> vibrator, adjusting for lighting and wind condition, their worship of
> Climate Change as if anything was actually solved in our and our
> childrens' childrens lifetimes, or is even possible... some major
> allowance for the dancing animated CGI scenes... I estimate about 19
> women and minorities they did showcase. All less than 42 years of age.
>
> What do I win? Where's my award, m(y) prize? Ooo... Rainbow Spiral Lollypop.
>
> So the other day I ventured to watch “What On Earth?” on one of them
> always on On ON science channels. So they are going on and on about
> some spirals only visible with high definition cameras orbiting
> Earth. For twenty minutes they wasted my time. Are they Alien signals?
> Are they hieroglyphs? <Comercial Break#1> How long have they existed?
> <Comercial Break#2> Messages? What means they? <Comercial Break#3>
> Then finally: No. Twenty minutes later they show the farmer and his
> hoe hauling vehicle that was making the spirals to collect rainwater.
>
> Now tell me, those writers/producers/directors had no apriori clue
> that it was a farming project?! Hell, they showed the farmer.
> Interviewed him too. I turned off the TV and will never return to
> watch anymore of said show. Who's fooling who?! Whom?! Oye...
>
> -- Mahipal “IPMM... माहिपाल ७६३८: Our life long loving Companion, TV.”

Of course PBS sucks. It's run by idiot Libs like HVAC. Their 
understanding of ANYTHING, let alone science is well below HVAC. Hey we 
are talking here about PBS geniuses who for no reason dumped not only 
their top-rated weekly show, but their top-rated yearly show as well. 
They really know business! No problem, they can always re-run an old Ken 
Burns Film showing how all whites (presumably except Ken Burns) are racist.

Of course the REAL reason for the program was to provide disinformation 
to brainwash children so they won't investigate things like the Nazca 
lines. That is assuming that the Greens like Wormley don't trash them 
first. Nothing to see here, kids, move along!

-- 

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#567434

Sam Wormley
Why Math Rocks 
> http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/03/30/472405110/why-math-rocks 


> The challenge with math is that if you don't look with the right 
> eyes, you don't see how pervasive and all-encompassing it really is. 
> We somehow detune ourselves from the myriad patterns that surround 
> us, both outside and in. We don't count heartbeats (that would drive 
> most people mad, as you can check in this amazing Radiolab program 
> The Heartbeat. And we don't associate evergreens with cones or tend 
> to analyze the symmetry in people's faces -- at least consciously. 
> Yet, all of our gadgets and machines depend on our understanding and 
> ability to apply math to different materials. 
> 
> At a deeper level, much of the natural sciences are about identifying 
> patterns in nature that we then call "laws." These laws usually have 
> some form of mathematical expression, as in Newton's laws of motion 
> and gravity, or the law of conservation of energy. In fact, such laws 
> are so essential to our understanding of the universe that many 
> scientists believe that math goes beyond human invention, being the 
> fundamental language of nature. 
------------

Sam, don't you ever have an opinion regarding the science articles you post?

How about kicking in your two cents along with your links?

PS- As moderator here, I certainly do appreciate your contributions. I just want more

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#567476

On 04/02/2016 09:18 AM, HVAC wrote:
> Sam Wormley
> Why Math Rocks
>> http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/03/30/472405110/why-math-rocks
>
>
>> The challenge with math is that if you don't look with the right
>> eyes, you don't see how pervasive and all-encompassing it really is.
>> We somehow detune ourselves from the myriad patterns that surround
>> us, both outside and in. We don't count heartbeats (that would drive
>> most people mad, as you can check in this amazing Radiolab program
>> The Heartbeat. And we don't associate evergreens with cones or tend
>> to analyze the symmetry in people's faces -- at least consciously.
>> Yet, all of our gadgets and machines depend on our understanding and
>> ability to apply math to different materials.
>>
>> At a deeper level, much of the natural sciences are about identifying
>> patterns in nature that we then call "laws." These laws usually have
>> some form of mathematical expression, as in Newton's laws of motion
>> and gravity, or the law of conservation of energy. In fact, such laws
>> are so essential to our understanding of the universe that many
>> scientists believe that math goes beyond human invention, being the
>> fundamental language of nature.
> ------------
>
> Sam, don't you ever have an opinion regarding the science articles you post?
>
> How about kicking in your two cents along with your links?
>
> PS- As moderator here, I certainly do appreciate your contributions. I just want more
>
Great sentiment, Mr. Moderator, but Sam has learned if he does anything 
more than cut and paste journalist screed he gets his ass handed to him. 
And he knows a LOT more science than you do.

-- 

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     \::/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
      ~~            \/__/         \/__/

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#567656

benj wrote:

> On 04/02/2016 09:18 AM, HVAC wrote:
>> Sam Wormley
>>> Why Math Rocks
>>> http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/03/30/472405110/why-math-rocks
>>> [human gatewaying]
>>
>> […]
>> PS- As moderator here, I certainly do appreciate your contributions. I
>> just want more
>
> Great sentiment, Mr. Moderator, but […]

… this is _not_ a moderated newsgroup (hence the spam).

-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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#567661

> 
> Great sentiment, Mr. Moderator, but [...] 

... this is _not_ a moderated newsgroup (hence the spam). 

-- 
PointedEars 
-----------------

Dear Mr Ears-
Please keep your comments on topic.
Consider this your 1st warning.

HVAC
Moderator Emeritus
sci.physics

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#567665

HVAC wrote:

> Dear Mr Ears-
> Please keep your comments on topic.
> Consider this your 1st warning.
> 
> HVAC
> Moderator Emeritus
> sci.physics

LOL.  This is how Usenet newsgroup moderation works instead:

<http://www.newsdemon.com/what-is-moderated-group.php>
<http://pages.swcp.com/~dmckeon/mod-faq.html>
<http://faqs.cs.uu.nl/na-dir/usenet/moderation/pitfalls.html>

(By contrast, “HVAC” is a troll¹ *posing as* moderator.  Do not feed.)

_______
¹  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll>

-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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#567675

Ears says
(By contrast, "HVAC" is a troll¹ *posing as* moderator.  Do not feed.) 
-----------

Please try to keep your comments on topic. I do not wish to impose my moderator powers upon you.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation

HVAC
Moderator Emeritus
sci.physics

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#567775

On 04/03/2016 10:29 AM, HVAC wrote:
> Ears says
> (By contrast, "HVAC" is a troll¹ *posing as* moderator.  Do not feed.)
> -----------
>
> Please try to keep your comments on topic. I do not wish to impose my moderator powers upon you.
>
> Thanks in advance for your cooperation
>
> HVAC
> Moderator Emeritus
> sci.physics
>
Danger! Ears, HVAC has superpowers and ESP! Don't make him use them on you!

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#567823

BJ quacked
Danger! Ears, HVAC has superpowers and ESP! Don't make him use them on you! 
-------------

Probably most people you know DON'T believe in ESP. But BJ does.

Amazing that it's 2016 and there are still a few quacks that think ESP is real. When BJ is asked what force mediates the mental transfer of thought from one person to another, he gets mad. He claims that ESP can actually travel faster than light. But when asked how, he gets mad.

BJ comes from the Uri Geller school of science. (Cough)

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#567872

On 04/04/2016 07:46 AM, HVAC wrote:
> BJ quacked Danger! Ears, HVAC has superpowers and ESP! Don't make him
> use them on you! -------------
>
> Probably most people you know DON'T believe in ESP. But BJ does.
>
> Amazing that it's 2016 and there are still a few quacks that think
> ESP is real. When BJ is asked what force mediates the mental transfer
> of thought from one person to another, he gets mad. He claims that
> ESP can actually travel faster than light. But when asked how, he
> gets mad.
>
> BJ comes from the Uri Geller school of science. (Cough)
>
I believe the government spent millions studying ESP and got results
with our tax dollars. Their own documents prove it. I believe in
government documents. HVAC only believes in his own mouth. But Oddly
while he makes fun of ESP, He claims to have it! He makes fun of Ghosts
but seems scared of them. He says he knows all science (just like 
Glazier) but if you ask him to talk about science he gets mad.

HVAC (The "moderator") comes from the nutjob school of science.

-- 

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#567871

On 04/03/2016 10:29 AM, HVAC wrote:
> Ears says
> (By contrast, "HVAC" is a troll¹ *posing as* moderator.  Do not feed.)
> -----------
>
> Please try to keep your comments on topic. I do not wish to impose my moderator powers upon you.
>
> Thanks in advance for your cooperation
>
> HVAC
> Moderator Emeritus
> sci.physics

Be careful ears, He has superpwoers, and is able to use ESP. HE also 
knows some ghosts personally. You don't want to get slimed, do you?



-- 

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  \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
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    \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
     \::/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
      ~~            \/__/         \/__/

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#567447

On 4/1/2016 7:01 PM, Sam Wormley wrote:
> Why Math Rocks

NPR BS, spun up mystical showtime crap.

it is the wrong attitude about Math, scares kids


         Math is a language.

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#567450

Dne 02/04/2016 v 16:02 Sergio napsal(a):
> On 4/1/2016 7:01 PM, Sam Wormley wrote:
>> Why Math Rocks
> 
> NPR BS, spun up mystical showtime crap.
> 
> it is the wrong attitude about Math, scares kids
> 
>          Math is a language.

.. of physics.

Other languages just verbosely,
vaguely and often incorrectly try to describe
what the native language of physics says about then topic.

One quite a good criteria to determine pseudoscientists
is that they avoid math as the devil the cross.
( I put aside avoiding math in popularization context )

E.g. Tornado James escapes seeing a simple gas state equation.

-- 
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )
Knowledge makes great men humble, but small men arrogant.

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#567487

On 04/02/2016 10:02 AM, Sergio wrote:
> On 4/1/2016 7:01 PM, Sam Wormley wrote:
>> Why Math Rocks
>
> NPR BS, spun up mystical showtime crap.
>
> it is the wrong attitude about Math, scares kids
>
>
>          Math is a language.
>
>
>
Yup!

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