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Does the hydrogen spectral series represent atomic hydrogen?

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  Does the hydrogen spectral series represent atomic hydrogen? Rich DeSantis <richarddesaneis@gmail.com> - 2016-08-31 06:34 -0400
    Re: Does the hydrogen spectral series represent atomic hydrogen? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-08-31 19:54 +0200
      Re: Does the hydrogen spectral series represent atomic hydrogen? Rich DeSantis <richarddesaneis@gmail.com> - 2016-09-07 06:53 -0400
        Re: Does the hydrogen spectral series represent atomic hydrogen? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-07 16:11 +0200
          Re: Does the hydrogen spectral series represent atomic hydrogen? Rich DeSantis <richarddesaneis@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 14:49 -0400
            Re: Does the hydrogen spectral series represent atomic hydrogen? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 21:38 +0200
    Re: Does the hydrogen spectral series represent atomic hydrogen? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-09-02 18:13 +0200

#595321 — Does the hydrogen spectral series represent atomic hydrogen?

The hydrogen spectral series cannot represent atomic hydrogen, because
each spectral line corresponds to a change of molecular species, not
an energy change within a molecular species.  

There are man many molecular species of pure hydrogen.  For example,
Dihydrogen can exist as an Ortho- or Para- nuclear spin isomer.  Bond
dissociation can break dihydrogen into 2 molecular species of atomic
hydrogen.  Magnetism can separate the 2 species of atomic hydrogen.
The energy difference between the species corresponds to a radio
wavelength of about 4 cm.  Phase and isotope differences can result in
additional species.  
http://www.chem.mun.ca/homes/hjchome/c2/hnotes/hyd/forms.htm

Note: The reference claims that magnetism can plus spin from minus
spin atomic hydrogen.  I thought magnetism separates by charge, or by
mass; not by spin.  

"When hydrogen molecules are dissociated the spins of the electrons
are not changed so half the atoms produced have their spins "up" and
the other half have them "down". Passing them through a strong
magnetic field splits them into two beams. "
http://www.chem.mun.ca/homes/hjchome/c2/hnotes/hyd/forms.htm

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#595340

On 08/31/2016 12:34 PM, Rich DeSantis wrote:
> The hydrogen spectral series cannot represent atomic hydrogen, because
> each spectral line corresponds to a change of molecular species, not
> an energy change within a molecular species.
>
> There are man many molecular species of pure hydrogen.  For example,
> Dihydrogen can exist as an Ortho- or Para- nuclear spin isomer.  Bond
> dissociation can break dihydrogen into 2 molecular species of atomic
> hydrogen.  Magnetism can separate the 2 species of atomic hydrogen.
> The energy difference between the species corresponds to a radio
> wavelength of about 4 cm.  Phase and isotope differences can result in
> additional species.
> http://www.chem.mun.ca/homes/hjchome/c2/hnotes/hyd/forms.htm

While atoms of a particular element can be formally called
molecules ( as smallest particles of perticular substance )
of a monoatomic gas, as e.g. for He, Ne, Ar, Kr, Xe, Ra,
we do not use term molecules for them,
taking molecules as polyatomic objects.

>
> Note: The reference claims that magnetism can plus spin from minus
> spin atomic hydrogen.  I thought magnetism separates by charge, or by
> mass; not by spin.
>
> "When hydrogen molecules are dissociated the spins of the electrons
> are not changed so half the atoms produced have their spins "up" and
> the other half have them "down". Passing them through a strong
> magnetic field splits them into two beams. "
> http://www.chem.mun.ca/homes/hjchome/c2/hnotes/hyd/forms.htm
>

Magnetism separates either moving charges,
either neutral objects with nonzero megnetic momentum(a?)
Hydrogen atoms behaves in a magnetic field
like a miniatur magnets, a part ( usually half) oriented one direction,
the other part the opposite direction. ( Not exactly opposite,
simplified take it like somewhere upwards or downwards ).

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#596153

On Wed, 31 Aug 2016 19:54:46 +0200, Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 08/31/2016 12:34 PM, Rich DeSantis wrote:
>> The hydrogen spectral series cannot represent atomic hydrogen, because
>> each spectral line corresponds to a change of molecular species, not
>> an energy change within a molecular species.
>>
>> There are man many molecular species of pure hydrogen.  For example,
>> Dihydrogen can exist as an Ortho- or Para- nuclear spin isomer.  Bond
>> dissociation can break dihydrogen into 2 molecular species of atomic
>> hydrogen.  Magnetism can separate the 2 species of atomic hydrogen.
>> The energy difference between the species corresponds to a radio
>> wavelength of about 4 cm.  Phase and isotope differences can result in
>> additional species.
>> http://www.chem.mun.ca/homes/hjchome/c2/hnotes/hyd/forms.htm
>
>While atoms of a particular element can be formally called
>molecules ( as smallest particles of perticular substance )
>of a monoatomic gas, as e.g. for He, Ne, Ar, Kr, Xe, Ra,
>we do not use term molecules for them,
>taking molecules as polyatomic objects.
>
All quantized molecular energy changes are between molecular species.
A change of molecular species does not count as a change of orbital
energy.  

At 3000K, dihydrogen dissociates into the 2 known forms of atomic
hydrogen.  The high-energy (3000K) requirement of atomic hydrogen
keeps it from being the lowest energy form of hydrogen (ground state.)
>>
>> Note: The reference claims that magnetism can plus spin from minus
>> spin atomic hydrogen.  I thought magnetism separates by charge, or by
>> mass; not by spin.
>>
>> "When hydrogen molecules are dissociated the spins of the electrons
>> are not changed so half the atoms produced have their spins "up" and
>> the other half have them "down". Passing them through a strong
>> magnetic field splits them into two beams. "
>> http://www.chem.mun.ca/homes/hjchome/c2/hnotes/hyd/forms.htm
>>
>
>Magnetism separates either moving charges,
>either neutral objects with nonzero megnetic momentum(a?)
>Hydrogen atoms behaves in a magnetic field
>like a miniatur magnets, a part ( usually half) oriented one direction,
>the other part the opposite direction. ( Not exactly opposite,
>simplified take it like somewhere upwards or downwards ).

A magnetic field is not efficient at separating + spin hydrogen and -
spin hydrogen into separate containers. The plus side of the magnet
will attract the magnetic minus side of either hydrogen.  

Perhaps, the EFFICIENT separation of + from - atomic hydrogen via a
magnetic field is evidence that atomic hydrogen has a charge at the
time of separation.  

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#596168

On 09/07/2016 12:53 PM, Rich DeSantis wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2016 19:54:46 +0200, Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com>
> wrote:

>>> http://www.chem.mun.ca/homes/hjchome/c2/hnotes/hyd/forms.htm
>>
>> While atoms of a particular element can be formally called
>> molecules ( as smallest particles of perticular substance )
>> of a monoatomic gas, as e.g. for He, Ne, Ar, Kr, Xe, Ra,
>> we do not use term molecules for them,
>> taking molecules as polyatomic objects.
>>
> All quantized molecular energy changes are between molecular species.

why ?

> A change of molecular species does not count as a change of orbital
> energy.

..but causes it.

>
> At 3000K, dihydrogen dissociates into the 2 known forms of atomic
> hydrogen.  The high-energy (3000K) requirement of atomic hydrogen
> keeps it from being the lowest energy form of hydrogen (ground state.)

That is not counted as different forms, but different energy levels,
do parallel and antiparallel spins of 2 fermions.

It is like if you said there is N forms of O2 molecule
as their have N various values of vibration quantum number, and 
similarly but doubled for rotation quantum numbers.

> A magnetic field is not efficient at separating + spin hydrogen and -
> spin hydrogen into separate containers. The plus side of the magnet
> will attract the magnetic minus side of either hydrogen.
>
> Perhaps, the EFFICIENT separation of + from - atomic hydrogen via a
> magnetic field is evidence that atomic hydrogen has a charge at the
> time of separation.
>

I omitted to stress STRONGLY NON HOMOGENOUS magnetic field.
Homogenous ones does not separate them.

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#598682

On Wed, 7 Sep 2016 16:11:29 +0200, Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 09/07/2016 12:53 PM, Rich DeSantis wrote:
>> On Wed, 31 Aug 2016 19:54:46 +0200, Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>>> http://www.chem.mun.ca/homes/hjchome/c2/hnotes/hyd/forms.htm
>>>
>>> While atoms of a particular element can be formally called
>>> molecules ( as smallest particles of perticular substance )
>>> of a monoatomic gas, as e.g. for He, Ne, Ar, Kr, Xe, Ra,
>>> we do not use term molecules for them,
>>> taking molecules as polyatomic objects.
>>>
>> All quantized molecular energy changes are between molecular species.
>
>why ?

There are references that claim electron energy level changes within
ATOMIC HYDROGEN are responsible for the hydrogen spectral series.  
 
"The emission spectrum of atomic hydrogen is divided into a number of
spectral series, with wavelengths given by the Rydberg formula."  ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_spectral_series
 
In reality, conversion of atomic hydrogen itself to / from dihydrogen
produces a particular amount of energy.  Every other line within the
hydrogen spectral series corresponds a different amount of energy,
because they correspond to different chemical reactions.  
 
An arc through dihydrogen gas is the supplier of photons for the
hydrogen spectral series.  The arc causes the chemical reactions that
convert dihydrogen into a number of hydrogen species.  As these
hydrogen species (eventually) convert back into dihydrogen, some emit
photons.  
 
Note: Arcs through gas typically produce a variety of molecular
species.  For example, an arc in air can produce ozone and a variety
of NOx molecules.  

>> A change of molecular species does not count as a change of orbital
>> energy.
>
>..but causes it.

The word "ELECTRON" is singular.  In reality, during the reaction 2H
<==> H2, each electron does not emit/absorb its own photon.
 
Similarly, during a galvanic reaction, every electron within every
atom in the anode and cathode reactants that changes energy does not
individually import/export magnetic energy.  Otherwise, each electron
that imports / exports magnetic energy would have contact w/ the
external circuit.  
 
Through that contact, the electron would carry magnetic energy to the
external circuit.  This would export a lot of electrons during a
single galvanic reaction.  It would also create a conflict between
electron export, versus retention of the electron at the lower energy
level.  
 
If the molecular energy change is indeed a change of hydrogen's
electron-proton distance, then heat content per molecule would not
change.  Changing the distance between charges does not change the
heat content of point charges themselves.  

>>
>> At 3000K, dihydrogen dissociates into the 2 known forms of atomic
>> hydrogen.  The high-energy (3000K) requirement of atomic hydrogen
>> keeps it from being the lowest energy form of hydrogen (ground state.)
>
>That is not counted as different forms, but different energy levels,
>do parallel and antiparallel spins of 2 fermions.
>
>It is like if you said there is N forms of O2 molecule
>as their have N various values of vibration quantum number, and 
>similarly but doubled for rotation quantum numbers.

Atomic hydrogen has one degree of freedom (dihydrogen has 3.)
Therefore, the atomic hydrogen spectra series does not contain lines
corresponding to vibration energy.  
 
Note: During a change of phase into a vibrational mode, the supply
energy does not convert into vibrational energy.  The molecular energy
difference between reactant and product exactly equals a single type
of non-quantized energy.  
 
>> A magnetic field is not efficient at separating + spin hydrogen and -
>> spin hydrogen into separate containers. The plus side of the magnet
>> will attract the magnetic minus side of either hydrogen.
>>
>> Perhaps, the EFFICIENT separation of + from - atomic hydrogen via a
>> magnetic field is evidence that atomic hydrogen has a charge at the
>> time of separation.
>>
>
>I omitted to stress STRONGLY NON HOMOGENOUS magnetic field.
>Homogenous ones does not separate them.

Are you claiming that a non homogenous magnetic field is more
selective of + versus - hydrogen, than a homogenous magnetic field?  

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#598693

Dne 28/09/2016 v 20:49 Rich DeSantis napsal(a):
> On Wed, 7 Sep 2016 16:11:29 +0200, Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>>>
>>> All quantized molecular energy changes are between molecular species.
>>
>> why ?
> 
> There are references that claim electron energy level changes within
> ATOMIC HYDROGEN are responsible for the hydrogen spectral series.  
>  
> "The emission spectrum of atomic hydrogen is divided into a number of
> spectral series, with wavelengths given by the Rydberg formula."  ...
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_spectral_series

Sure..

>  
> In reality, conversion of atomic hydrogen itself to / from dihydrogen
> produces a particular amount of energy.  Every other line within the
> hydrogen spectral series corresponds a different amount of energy,
> because they correspond to different chemical reactions.  

False. They have nothing to do with chemical reactions.
>  
> An arc through dihydrogen gas is the supplier of photons for the
> hydrogen spectral series.  The arc causes the chemical reactions that
> convert dihydrogen into a number of hydrogen species.  As these
> hydrogen species (eventually) convert back into dihydrogen, some emit
> photons.  

No, the arc is primarily supplier of atomic hydrogen
with large protions of atoms in excited state.
Hydrogen atomic spectral line series are related
to electrons changing the man quantum number.
>  

>>> A change of molecular species does not count as a change of orbital
>>> energy.
>>
>> ..but causes it.
> 
> The word "ELECTRON" is singular.  In reality, during the reaction 2H
> <==> H2, each electron does not emit/absorb its own photon.

Reactions need not necessarily cause photon emission.
but if an electron releases energy, and there is nothing else to
overtake it, it emits a photon.


>  
> If the molecular energy change is indeed a change of hydrogen's
> electron-proton distance, then heat content per molecule would not
> change.  Changing the distance between charges does not change the
> heat content of point charges themselves.  

You need deeper study before making justified claims.

> 
> Atomic hydrogen has one degree of freedom (dihydrogen has 3.)

3 and 6

> Therefore, the atomic hydrogen spectra series does not contain lines
> corresponding to vibration energy.  

Self obvious.
>  
> Note: During a change of phase into a vibrational mode, the supply
> energy does not convert into vibrational energy.  The molecular energy
> difference between reactant and product exactly equals a single type
> of non-quantized energy.  

You do not really know what you are talking about.
>>
>> I omitted to stress STRONGLY NON HOMOGENOUS magnetic field.
>> Homogenous ones does not separate them.
> 
> Are you claiming that a non homogenous magnetic field is more
> selective of + versus - hydrogen, than a homogenous magnetic field?  

Yes.
See the Stern-Gerlach experiment.

-- 
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )
Knowledge makes great men humble, but small men arrogant.

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#595617

Rich DeSantis wrote:

> The hydrogen spectral series cannot represent atomic hydrogen,

Yes, it can and it does (for suitable values of “represent”).

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_spectral_series>

> because each spectral line corresponds to a change of molecular species,

No, it does not.

> not an energy change within a molecular species.

It does not correspond to that either.

-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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