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Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize"

From moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Newsgroups sci.physics
Subject Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize"
Date 2015-07-30 15:01 +0000
Organization The World : www.TheWorld.com : Since 1989
Message-ID <mpde7i$kt$1@pcls7.std.com> (permalink)
References (4 earlier) <33e3fc23-6fe8-489a-8952-77deae422008@googlegroups.com> <mpb86m$vae$1@pcls7.std.com> <89c4ad48-e7ee-4817-81c4-082d907b79e8@googlegroups.com> <mpbidu$60u$1@pcls7.std.com> <6494b4a2-a342-4f76-baf3-321ec45f9ee0@googlegroups.com>

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john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>Michael said
>"Or, even better, contribute an electron to a common bond with 5 other 
>atoms. "

>Well, I never learned about "common 
>bonds". I learned that it takes 2
>electrons to fill an orbital.

That's generally true, but what happens is more complicated than that
simplification.

The following description is probably wasted on you, but perhaps someone
else reading this will appreciate it.

Electrons in orbitals are mostly standing waves.  The waves have a wave 
function in 3d space, which has a value at every point in space.  The wave 
function value can be + or - (this is not electric charge).

When two atoms have orbital wave functions that overlap, they interact.
If both of them are + (or both -) they reinforce each other, form a lower
energy state and form a bond.  If 1 is + and the other -, they will repel 
each other, it's an "antibond".

If there are two electrons in an orbital they will have the same wave 
function but of opposite sign.  They will cancel so the electrons don't
participate in bonds with other atoms.

In a p orbital the wave function looks like a 3d figure 8.  One lobe of
the 8 is +, the other -.  In benzene, if the plane of the carbons is
horizontal, there is 1 "8" per carbon atom standing upright, each with 1
electron, with the carbon nucleus at the "waist" of the 8.  All the "+"
lobes are on the top and all the "-" lobes the bottom.  All the "+" lobes
interact with each other and form a big bond.  They mostly interact with
their 2 immediate neighbors but to a certain extent each interacts with
all 5 others.  The same thing happens with all the "-" lobes on the other
side of the plane of carbons. The merged "8" lobes form two "clouds" of 
electrons, one on each side of the plane of the carbons.

How other atoms interact with these clouds of p electrons defines the 
chemistry of benzene and other ringed compounds.

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Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 12:55 -0700
  Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-07-30 15:01 +0000
    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-07-30 14:23 -0500
      Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Enomis Skating <anomis.edenomis@libero.it> - 2015-08-02 23:38 -0700
        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 06:53 -0700
          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 16:06 +0200
          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 09:13 -0500
            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 14:18 -0700
              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 16:58 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 16:10 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-04 07:39 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 08:33 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 10:41 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 10:38 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 13:36 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 13:11 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 13:24 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 15:35 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 15:50 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 20:05 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 20:04 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 20:22 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 06:52 -0400
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 09:32 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 12:37 -0400
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 12:21 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 13:35 -0400
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 13:29 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 17:13 -0500
                curvature of Universe manifest; time is not a dimesnion per se noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 11:06 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Enomis Skating <anomis.edenomis@libero.it> - 2015-08-05 22:59 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 06:32 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 09:36 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 07:51 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 07:51 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 10:22 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 08:34 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 12:17 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 14:35 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 14:51 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 17:22 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 16:47 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 07:38 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 06:27 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 08:49 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 10:11 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 12:47 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 14:40 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 18:56 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 04:59 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 11:23 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 15:33 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 14:23 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 12:36 -0700
                "de- noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 15:45 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 09:00 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 10:17 -0400
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 09:54 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 13:55 -0400
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 11:38 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 13:49 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 18:27 -0400
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 06:41 -0400
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 05:50 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 09:16 -0400
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 06:41 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 13:38 -0400
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 10:52 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" BDK <Control@Worldcontrol.com> - 2015-08-11 14:49 -0400
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" "K Wills (Shill #3)" <compuelf@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 14:51 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 05:30 -0400
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 07:56 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" "K Wills (Shill #3)" <compuelf@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 16:28 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 18:21 -0400
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 08:15 -0400
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 08:55 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 15:30 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 15:28 -0500
                from there noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 13:21 -0700
                to noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 10:16 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 17:20 -0500
                mister Franz (sp.? noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 11:10 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 07:42 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 09:34 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Enomis Skating <anomis.edenomis@libero.it> - 2015-08-06 07:56 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 08:16 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-06 10:39 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-04 09:30 -0400
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-04 12:15 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 06:26 -0400
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 05:49 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-08-10 19:20 +0000
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 12:50 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 15:53 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 14:46 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 17:27 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 15:55 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-08-10 23:15 +0000
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 18:40 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 22:07 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 07:53 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 06:12 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 09:00 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 07:22 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 09:33 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 07:44 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 10:22 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 09:53 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 13:05 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 11:19 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 13:25 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 11:42 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 13:54 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 12:29 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 15:05 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 13:24 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 15:32 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 13:55 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 17:15 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 15:40 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 08:55 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 08:31 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 10:41 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 09:10 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 11:27 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 11:04 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-08-12 18:26 +0000
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 13:28 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 12:49 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 15:35 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Mahipal <mahipal7638@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 14:58 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 16:18 -0700
                :=4 noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 16:58 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 15:57 -0700
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 05:32 -0400
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-08-11 15:13 +0000
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 07:47 -0500
                Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-08-11 15:04 +0000
                ratio, aspect noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 12:23 -0700
    Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-07-31 20:35 -0500
      Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-07-31 19:00 -0700
        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-01 05:25 -0700
          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-08-01 21:02 +0000
            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 06:50 -0400
          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-08-01 14:05 -0700
            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Enomis Skating <anomis.edenomis@libero.it> - 2015-08-02 02:28 -0700
              zene o'Ben noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 14:14 -0700
            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 17:01 -0500
            Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-08-01 22:48 +0000
              Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Enomis Skating <anomis.edenomis@libero.it> - 2015-08-02 02:21 -0700
          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 16:57 -0500
          Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 16:59 -0500
        Re: Benzene ring- nothing has to magically "delocalize" Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 16:44 -0500

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