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Re: 1st Mars Colonists Should Be 'Prepared to Die,' Elon Musk Says

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edprochak@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 2:46:06 PM UTC-4, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>> edprochak@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 5:16:04 PM UTC-4, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>> >> edprochak@gmail.com wrote:
>> > []
>> >> > I SAID :  VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
>> >> >> >> I'll have to look more into the plans for energy production.
>> >> > 
>> >> > How many times do you have to ask the same question?
>> >> 
>> >> Likely until you provide a rational answer.
>> >> 
>> >> The solar irradiance on Mars on average is about half that of Earth
>> >> when there are no dust storms, and there are lots of dust storms.
>> > 
>> > So there may be possibility for wind power. Thin atmosphere, but
>> > how much power could be converted? something to consider. all options
>> > should be checked.
>> 
>> How much can be converted you ask?
>> 
>> The same as anywhere else, about 30% of whatever is available, but
>> since the atmosphere is so thin, there is little available.
> 
> okay, you argue against solar on mars because of
> "lots of dust storms." but then argue against wind power
> because "the atmosphere is so thin".

No, I am not arguing against anything, I am stating facts.

You do know that Mars if farther away from the Sun than the Earth and
that the atmosphere is very thin, don't you?

From NASA's numbers on the solar irradiance on Mars you can get a daily
average of about 40 W/m^2 of electrical energy on Mars. That is daily
average for a clear day, with a bit more at local noon and a bit less
mornings and afternoons.

That less dense moving air has less energy than more dense air is
basic physics.

> Actually I am arguing that they might be able to harness
> both forms of power. just as we need to do here.

There is no might about it, you could but you will not get a lot of
energy from either, nowhere near enough to support industry.

>> >> The only way to provide the enormous amount of power needed to turn
>> >> dirt and rocks into anything useful can only be supplied by several
>> >> nuclear reactors.
>> > 
>> > I'm sure that is not the only way, but I agree Nuclear would be a big
>> > source.
>> 
>> If you are so sure, name it.
> 
> Wind, solar. Boy you have very short term memory.

There is very little available energy in wind and solar on Mars.

Boy you have very short term memory.

To get the energy of a little 50 MW reactor you would need over a million
square meters of solar array and it would only produce energy during
the day.

>> >> It is to be determined if sufficient water is available on Mars to
>> >> cool a single nuclear reactor, much less the many that would be needed.
>> > 
>> > SO, alternative designs that do not need water might be an option.
>> > I knew there had been some research on this, but I thought it was related
>> > to fusion reactors. But here is a design that could be very useful:
>> > 
>> > "Molten salt reactors are nuclear reactors which use a molten fluoride
>> >  salt mixture as the primary coolant. These salts have proven to be far
>> >  superior heat sinks than the helium used in light-water reactors, which
>> >  greatly reduces the need for supplementary cooling. The nuclear fuel
>> >  (uranium tetrafluoride) can also be dissolved directly into the coolant
>> >  as well. When the fluid is inserted into a graphite core, the mix goes
>> >  critical and drives a turbine to generate electricity. Unlike conventional
>> >  light-water reactors, an MSR operates at very high temperatures to achieve
>> >  thermodynamic efficiency but remain at atmospheric pressure to reduce
>> >  mechanical stress on the system."
>> > from:
>> > http://gizmodo.com/5990383/the-future-of-nuclear-power-runs-on-the-waste-of-our-nuclear-past
>> > 
>> > Maybe they can develop the technology for the Mars colony, then we get 
>> > the benefit of the research for plants here on earth.
>> 
>> Fine. This just means you have to transport everything from Earth.
> 
> So did you read the Musk plan at all?

What does a press release have to do with facts?

>> > IF it turns out there is not enough water, maybe direct conversion
>> > with thermal electric generators can be done. And then the "waste heat"
>> > can also be piped around the colony for room heating and such.
>> 
>> The typical efficiency of thermal electric generators is around 5-8%.
> 
> Yes, so? You are connecting them to a nuclear plant. LOTS of heat
> available.

There is also the issue of cooling a nuclear plant so it does not
melt down.

>> Piping heat anywhere, whether for heating or just dumpling it requires
>> a transport medium such as water.
> 
> What is it with the water fascination with you?
> You never had a house with forced hot air for heating?

When you design your forced air cooled nuclear reactor, the world will
be at your feet.

>> 
>> > Regarding the water, the space station shows that recycling water
>> > works. So It would be interesting to calculate how much water would
>> > really be needed per person. Clearly a lot less that what is used
>> > by we Americans per person. I know of a company working on home
>> > based recycling of water (for homes in drought affected areas).
>> 
>> So where is this water recyling plant going to come from other
>> than Earth?
>> 
>> One more huge, heavy, expensive thing that needs to be transported.
> 
> maybe the first few. Later they will make their own.
> Again, did you not read the plan?

The plan says nothing about the duplication of a significant portion
of the industrial resources of Earth that would be required to do
that.

>> 
>> No one is going to be watering a lawn on Mars.
>> 
>> They do not wash anything on the space station; they send dirty stuff
>> back to Earth and send up clean stuff on a regular basis.
> 
> Space station does not have the room. Mars will have room
> for washing machines. Maybe not even water based. (ever had
> your suit dry cleaned?)

The major problem with the space station and washing thinss is not room.

So where is that river of dry cleaning fluid on Mars? You do know that
dry cleaning does use fluids, just not water, don't you?

>> > The problems can be solved. and the benefits will come back to us.
>> 
>> Sure the problems can be solved by sending huge amounts of stuff to
>> Mars on a regular basis. What benefit does that have to the taxpayers
>> funding all this?
>> 
> The colonists devise new ways of making things work with the resources
> available on Mars. We then can do some of the same things here.
> We will benefit.

Sure we will.

If it were all that simple, the Australian Outback would be wall to
wall people instead of an empty, desolate area.

>> > You are using a computer that have taken a lot longer to develop
>> > if the lunar program hadn't needed lower weight electronics.
>> > Now that wasn't the only factor that drove the development of
>> > the transistor in the US, but it did help drive the development
>> > of integrated circuits.
>> 
>> Which are now fully developed and the Apollo program had little to
>> do with it.
> 
> You missed my point. but I'll let this go.

I ignored the point of something new, wonderful, and unknown coming
out of sending people to Mars as childish wishing.

>> > So I cannot say the power issue is solved, but there is one
>> > possible solution.
>> 
>> Like what exactly? Collect everyone's shit, dry it on the near
>> vacuum surface and burn it in a steam boiler? Oops, no oxygen
>> to burn anything and no water for the boiler.
> 
> Again the SHORT TERM memory is failing you. Molten Salt Reactors.
> I even mentioned it again on the line below. just above you sig:

Which would still have to be cooled somehow if they existed.

>> > (Interesting too. I may just have to read more about MSR.)
>> > 
>> > Have a nice day.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Jim Pennino
> 
> (like talking to a two year old.)

Like talking to a little girl wishing for her fairy princess to appear.

-- 
Jim Pennino

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Re: 1st Mars Colonists Should Be 'Prepared to Die,' Elon Musk Says edprochak@gmail.com - 2016-10-11 06:33 -0700
  Re: 1st Mars Colonists Should Be 'Prepared to Die,' Elon Musk Says jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-10-11 18:35 +0000
    Re: 1st Mars Colonists Should Be 'Prepared to Die,' Elon Musk Says Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-10-11 14:30 -0500
    Re: 1st Mars Colonists Should Be 'Prepared to Die,' Elon Musk Says edprochak@gmail.com - 2016-10-13 08:47 -0700
      Re: 1st Mars Colonists Should Be 'Prepared to Die,' Elon Musk Says noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-10-13 10:31 -0700
        Re: 1st Mars Colonists Should Be 'Prepared to Die,' Elon Musk Says Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-10-13 20:37 -0500
          Re: 1st Mars Colonists Should Be 'Prepared to Die,' Elon Musk Says The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-10-13 18:49 -0700
            Re: 1st Mars Colonists Should Be 'Prepared to Die,' Elon Musk Says Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-10-13 21:53 -0500
              Re: 1st Mars Colonists Should Be 'Prepared to Die,' Elon Musk Says The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-10-13 22:40 -0700
                Re: 1st Mars Colonists Should Be 'Prepared to Die,' Elon Musk Says The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-10-14 10:49 -0700
      Re: 1st Mars Colonists Should Be 'Prepared to Die,' Elon Musk Says jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-10-13 23:42 +0000
      Re: 1st Mars Colonists Should Be 'Prepared to Die,' Elon Musk Says Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-10-13 20:35 -0500
        Re: 1st Mars Colonists Should Be 'Prepared to Die,' Elon Musk Says edprochak@gmail.com - 2016-10-14 08:36 -0700
          Re: 1st Mars Colonists Should Be 'Prepared to Die,' Elon Musk Says jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-10-14 17:59 +0000

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