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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #382573 > unrolled thread

Einstein's equivalence principle doesn't apply to light

Started bymarcelluttgens@gmail.com
First post2016-05-01 02:04 -0700
Last post2016-05-02 09:51 -0500
Articles 11 — 4 participants

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  Einstein's equivalence principle doesn't apply to light marcelluttgens@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 02:04 -0700
    Autistic imbecile Marcel Lutgens is back after a long absence "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2016-05-01 06:05 -0700
    Re: Einstein's equivalence principle doesn't apply to light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2016-05-01 10:44 -0500
      Re: Einstein's equivalence principle doesn't apply to light "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2016-05-01 08:58 -0700
      Re: Einstein's equivalence principle doesn't apply to light marcelluttgens@gmail.com - 2016-05-02 05:21 -0700
        Cretin Marcel Luttgens perseveres "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2016-05-02 05:44 -0700
        Re: Einstein's equivalence principle doesn't apply to light Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 10:22 -0500
        Re: Einstein's equivalence principle doesn't apply to light Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2016-05-02 10:40 -0500
      Re: Einstein's equivalence principle doesn't apply to light marcelluttgens@gmail.com - 2016-05-04 03:21 -0700
        Re: Einstein's equivalence principle doesn't apply to light Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 06:04 -0500
    Re: Einstein's equivalence principle doesn't apply to light Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 09:51 -0500

#382573 — Einstein's equivalence principle doesn't apply to light

Frommarcelluttgens@gmail.com
Date2016-05-01 02:04 -0700
SubjectEinstein's equivalence principle doesn't apply to light
Message-ID<fa2b7432-63f0-4af5-9c67-7ba9f64ff3ac@googlegroups.com>
http://mluttgens.pagesperso-orange.fr/Equivalence1.htm

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#382581 — Autistic imbecile Marcel Lutgens is back after a long absence

From"Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net>
Date2016-05-01 06:05 -0700
SubjectAutistic imbecile Marcel Lutgens is back after a long absence
Message-ID<cc201081-b02a-4bcf-85bf-d639db0caeeb@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#382573
On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 2:04:05 AM UTC-7, marcell...@gmail.com wrote:
>snip imbecilities<
Welcome back, cretin.

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#382586

FromTom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net>
Date2016-05-01 10:44 -0500
Message-ID<OcSdnaKozYvXubvKnZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#382573
On 5/1/16 5/1/16   4:04 AM, marcelluttgens@gmail.com wrote:
> http://mluttgens.pagesperso-orange.fr/Equivalence1.htm

Your conclusion is incorrect, because you do not understand what the equivalence 
principle actually says and how it applies.

	[Your calculations are only approximate, but are good enough.]

The equivalence principle does not have universal applicability, it applies ONLY 
within a region of spacetime that is small enough such that the sort of 
differences you discuss are not measurable -- its volume depends on the 
measurement resolution (better resolution => smaller volume).

Had you bothered to actually CALCULATE the blueshift, you would find that for a 
22 meter tall elevator (c.f. Pound and Rebka), the blueshift, gH/c^2, is only 
about 2E-15, which is VERY difficult to measure; the second term you claim 
"falsifies the PoE" is on the order of 2E-30, which is completely unmeasurable.

So for current measurement resolutions, the EP applies to such an "elevator" (of 
course, 22 meters would be a VERY tall elevator).


Tom Roberts

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#382587

From"Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net>
Date2016-05-01 08:58 -0700
Message-ID<199f4f5f-2ec0-4a14-8b51-fbfc54acd902@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#382586
On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 8:44:12 AM UTC-7, tjrob137 wrote:
> On 5/1/16 5/1/16   4:04 AM, marcelluttgens@gmail.com wrote:
> > http://mluttgens.pagesperso-orange.fr/Equivalence1.htm
> 
> Your conclusion is incorrect, because you do not understand what the equivalence 
> principle actually says and how it applies.
> 
> 	[Your calculations are only approximate, but are good enough.]
> 
> The equivalence principle does not have universal applicability, it applies ONLY 
> within a region of spacetime that is small enough such that the sort of 
> differences you discuss are not measurable -- its volume depends on the 
> measurement resolution (better resolution => smaller volume).
> 
> Had you bothered to actually CALCULATE the blueshift, you would find that for a 
> 22 meter tall elevator (c.f. Pound and Rebka), the blueshift, gH/c^2, is only 
> about 2E-15, which is VERY difficult to measure; the second term you claim 
> "falsifies the PoE" is on the order of 2E-30, which is completely unmeasurable.
> 
> So for current measurement resolutions, the EP applies to such an "elevator" (of 
> course, 22 meters would be a VERY tall elevator).
> 
> 
> Tom Roberts

Actually, the agreement extends to the second order term as well.

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#382638

Frommarcelluttgens@gmail.com
Date2016-05-02 05:21 -0700
Message-ID<b580cf56-be12-4acf-94b7-645a2790db0a@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#382586
Le dimanche 1 mai 2016 17:44:12 UTC+2, tjrob137 a écrit :
> On 5/1/16 5/1/16   4:04 AM, marcelluttgens@gmail.com wrote:
> > http://mluttgens.pagesperso-orange.fr/Equivalence1.htm
> 
> Your conclusion is incorrect, because you do not understand what the equivalence 
> principle actually says and how it applies.
> 
> 	[Your calculations are only approximate, but are good enough.]
> 
> The equivalence principle does not have universal applicability, it applies ONLY 
> within a region of spacetime that is small enough such that the sort of 
> differences you discuss are not measurable -- its volume depends on the 
> measurement resolution (better resolution => smaller volume).
> 
> Had you bothered to actually CALCULATE the blueshift, you would find that for a 
> 22 meter tall elevator (c.f. Pound and Rebka), the blueshift, gH/c^2, is only 
> about 2E-15, which is VERY difficult to measure; the second term you claim 
> "falsifies the PoE" is on the order of 2E-30, which is completely unmeasurable.
> 
> So for current measurement resolutions, the EP applies to such an "elevator" (of 
> course, 22 meters would be a VERY tall elevator).
> 
> 
> Tom Roberts

OK, they are not measurable, but in theory, they exist.

Marcel Luttgens

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#382639 — Cretin Marcel Luttgens perseveres

From"Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net>
Date2016-05-02 05:44 -0700
SubjectCretin Marcel Luttgens perseveres
Message-ID<639e7171-d62c-4e54-88c3-a534ee6a28bf@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#382638
On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 5:21:18 AM UTC-7, marcell...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> OK, they are not measurable, but in theory, they exist.
> 
> Marcel Luttgens

No. "they" don't

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#382646

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2016-05-02 10:22 -0500
Message-ID<ng7rb0$1nj$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#382638
On 5/2/2016 7:21 AM, marcelluttgens@gmail.com wrote:
> OK, they are not measurable, but in theory, they exist.

And that, plus about $2.50, will buy you a decent cup of cofee.

-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#382648

FromTom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net>
Date2016-05-02 10:40 -0500
Message-ID<3NednQQphPVj6brKnZ2dnUU7_81i4p2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#382638
On 5/2/16 5/2/16 - 7:21 AM, marcelluttgens@gmail.com wrote:
> Le dimanche 1 mai 2016 17:44:12 UTC+2, tjrob137 a écrit :
>> So for current measurement resolutions, the EP applies to such an "elevator" (of
>> course, 22 meters would be a VERY tall elevator).
>
> OK, they are not measurable, but in theory, they exist.

Which does NOT falsify the equivalence principle.

Tom Roberts

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#382767

Frommarcelluttgens@gmail.com
Date2016-05-04 03:21 -0700
Message-ID<84d6956b-6d60-4a5c-8caf-190ef4cc9b47@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#382586
Le dimanche 1 mai 2016 17:44:12 UTC+2, tjrob137 a écrit :
> On 5/1/16 5/1/16   4:04 AM, marcelluttgens@gmail.com wrote:
> > http://mluttgens.pagesperso-orange.fr/Equivalence1.htm
> 
> Your conclusion is incorrect, because you do not understand what the equivalence 
> principle actually says and how it applies.
> 
> 	[Your calculations are only approximate, but are good enough.]
> 
> The equivalence principle does not have universal applicability, it applies ONLY 
> within a region of spacetime that is small enough such that the sort of 
> differences you discuss are not measurable -- its volume depends on the 
> measurement resolution (better resolution => smaller volume).
> 
> Had you bothered to actually CALCULATE the blueshift, you would find that for a 
> 22 meter tall elevator (c.f. Pound and Rebka), the blueshift, gH/c^2, is only 
> about 2E-15, which is VERY difficult to measure; the second term you claim 
> "falsifies the PoE" is on the order of 2E-30, which is completely unmeasurable.
> 
> So for current measurement resolutions, the EP applies to such an "elevator" (of 
> course, 22 meters would be a VERY tall elevator).
> 
> 
> Tom Roberts

And for better measurements resolutions, the EP doesn't apply.

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#382768

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2016-05-04 06:04 -0500
Message-ID<ngcl0o$1pip$3@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#382767
On 5/4/2016 5:21 AM, marcelluttgens@gmail.com wrote:
> And for better measurements resolutions, the EP doesn't apply.

Not quite. For better measurement resolutions, the EP would apply to a 
smaller elevator.

-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#382640

FromOdd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date2016-05-02 09:51 -0500
Message-ID<ng7php$1tpd$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#382573
On 5/1/2016 4:04 AM, marcelluttgens@gmail.com wrote:
> http://mluttgens.pagesperso-orange.fr/Equivalence1.htm
>

You haven't provided for viewers to make comments or engage in a 
threaded discussion on your website. Why, in an era, where that is both 
free and easy, would you not do that?

-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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