Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #618428 > unrolled thread

The extraordinary popular delusion of relativity and the madness of crowds.

Started by	Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com>
First post	2023-08-20 20:47 -0700
Last post	2023-08-21 11:04 -0700
Articles	20 on this page of 100 — 14 participants

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#618428 — The extraordinary popular delusion of relativity and the madness of crowds.

From	Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com>
Date	2023-08-20 20:47 -0700
Subject	The extraordinary popular delusion of relativity and the madness of crowds.
Message-ID	<853dc82a-12a8-4e1e-aafe-5c5abc5b63f6n@googlegroups.com>

Please see: 
Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds: All Volumes, Complete and Unabridged (illustrated) Kindle Edition
by Charles MacKay (Author) Format: Kindle Edition


The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind Paperback – November 15, 2016
by Gustav Le Bon (Author)

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#618430

From	Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com>
Date	2023-08-20 20:56 -0700
Message-ID	<302b8e9b-34cd-462c-a2f6-5c8b542c8438n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#618428

On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 8:47:14 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
> Please see: 
> Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds: All Volumes, Complete and Unabridged (illustrated) Kindle Edition 
> by Charles MacKay (Author) Format: Kindle Edition 
> 
> 
> The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind Paperback – November 15, 2016 
> by Gustav Le Bon (Author)
The closest parallel evidently was the Tulip Bulb mania in Holland: "Tulip mania was a period during the Dutch Golden Age when contract prices for some bulbs of the recently introduced and fashionable tulip reached extraordinarily high levels. The major acceleration started in 1634 and then dramatically collapsed in February 1637.Wikipedia"

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#618443

From	JanPB <filmart@gmail.com>
Date	2023-08-20 23:56 -0700
Message-ID	<94818ee9-45c3-407a-86e4-8a959c3c7370n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#618428

On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 8:47:14 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
> Please see: 
> Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds: All Volumes, Complete and Unabridged (illustrated) Kindle Edition 
> by Charles MacKay (Author) Format: Kindle Edition 
> 
> 
> The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind Paperback – November 15, 2016 
> by Gustav Le Bon (Author)

Another deranged monomaniac.

--
Jan

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#618480

From	Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com>
Date	2023-08-21 10:40 -0700
Message-ID	<2e3afa7b-2c9b-4859-873d-7759f9717783n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#618443

On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 11:56:23 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 8:47:14 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
> > Please see: 
> > Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds: All Volumes, Complete and Unabridged (illustrated) Kindle Edition 
> > by Charles MacKay (Author) Format: Kindle Edition 
> > 
> > 
> > The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind Paperback – November 15, 2016 
> > by Gustav Le Bon (Author)
> Another deranged monomaniac. 
> 
> -- 
> Jan
Did you say, "What is irrational about relativity?" No. I guess you're dodging the issue.

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#618502

From	JanPB <filmart@gmail.com>
Date	2023-08-21 15:20 -0700
Message-ID	<389c05b3-11ff-4bda-bbc6-c23004f6ae0fn@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#618480

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 10:40:09 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 11:56:23 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote: 
> > On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 8:47:14 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > Please see: 
> > > Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds: All Volumes, Complete and Unabridged (illustrated) Kindle Edition 
> > > by Charles MacKay (Author) Format: Kindle Edition 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind Paperback – November 15, 2016 
> > > by Gustav Le Bon (Author) 
> > Another deranged monomaniac. 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Jan
> Did you say, "What is irrational about relativity?" No. I guess you're dodging the issue.

What issue?

--
Jan

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#618520

From	whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com>
Date	2023-08-21 20:10 -0500
Message-ID	<kkig7gF9kujU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#618502

On 8/21/2023 5:20 PM, JanPB wrote:
> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 10:40:09 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
>> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 11:56:23 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 8:47:14 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
>>>> Please see:
>>>> Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds: All Volumes, Complete and Unabridged (illustrated) Kindle Edition
>>>> by Charles MacKay (Author) Format: Kindle Edition
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind Paperback – November 15, 2016
>>>> by Gustav Le Bon (Author)
>>> Another deranged monomaniac.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Jan
>> Did you say, "What is irrational about relativity?" No. I guess you're dodging the issue.
> 
> What issue?

You can't get Laurence to nail this down because bizarro doesn't 
translate into real.

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#618530

From	Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com>
Date	2023-08-21 20:31 -0700
Message-ID	<3ebee427-a4d6-4512-b9d5-766d24bb466dn@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#618502

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 3:20:35 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 10:40:09 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 11:56:23 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote: 
> > > On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 8:47:14 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > Please see: 
> > > > Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds: All Volumes, Complete and Unabridged (illustrated) Kindle Edition 
> > > > by Charles MacKay (Author) Format: Kindle Edition 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind Paperback – November 15, 2016 
> > > > by Gustav Le Bon (Author) 
> > > Another deranged monomaniac. 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Jan 
> > Did you say, "What is irrational about relativity?" No. I guess you're dodging the issue.
> What issue? 
> 
> -- 
> Jan
What is rational about relativity? Ad hoc reasoning?

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#618564

From	whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com>
Date	2023-08-22 09:46 -0500
Message-ID	<kkk01rFh1mjU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#618530

On 8/21/2023 10:31 PM, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:

<...>

> What is rational about relativity? Ad hoc reasoning?

By definition nature is rational while human understanding may or
might not be. AFAIK you're taking exception to nature and good luck
with that!

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#618567

From	Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com>
Date	2023-08-22 09:28 -0700
Message-ID	<46e41689-b784-4819-8f44-528548726793n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#618564

On Tuesday, 22 August 2023 at 16:46:24 UTC+2, whodat wrote:
> On 8/21/2023 10:31 PM, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> 
> <...>
> > What is rational about relativity? Ad hoc reasoning?
> By definition nature is rational

Pfff.
By WHAT definition, poor halfbrain?

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#618590

From	JanPB <filmart@gmail.com>
Date	2023-08-22 15:43 -0700
Message-ID	<e044bc00-46ed-451b-8493-694e18e98d15n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#618530

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 8:31:14 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 3:20:35 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote: 
> > On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 10:40:09 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 11:56:23 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote: 
> > > > On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 8:47:14 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > Please see: 
> > > > > Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds: All Volumes, Complete and Unabridged (illustrated) Kindle Edition 
> > > > > by Charles MacKay (Author) Format: Kindle Edition 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind Paperback – November 15, 2016 
> > > > > by Gustav Le Bon (Author) 
> > > > Another deranged monomaniac. 
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > Jan 
> > > Did you say, "What is irrational about relativity?" No. I guess you're dodging the issue. 
> > What issue? 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Jan
> What is rational about relativity? Ad hoc reasoning?

But it's not ad hoc. You simply don't know what went on before the year
1905 in physics (or after, but that's another matter).

The problem that relativity has is that unlike, say, Newtonian mechanics, it
does not require any mathematical prerequisites (FAPP). On the other hand to
start doing anything in Newtonian mechanics, you already need a bit of
calculus (F=dp/dt is a differential equation) and if you add constraints to the
mix, it requires even more.

That's because in Newtonian mechanics certain fundamental concepts are
not even discussed, they are simply taken as they appear from everyday
experience (time and space).

But relativity starts earlier: it starts with formulating precisely a certain type
of kinematics, and this comes before any "F=dp/dt" even enters the room.
And it so happens that this new kinematics can be done without much
mathematical (or any other really) preparation.

This opens the doors wide to various wannabes with a raging inferiority complex
and the arrogance to match.

The only cure for such deluded person is to set aside the arrogance and pride,
roll up the sleeves and learn physics. Without it, you'll be forever condemned to
this string of endless mirages leading nowhere.

None of your posts addresses relativity even remotely, in fact.

That's why neither I nor anybody else familiar with the theory is ever
bothered by posts like yours in the least. It's been always just an
interesting lunchtime entertainment.

--
Jan

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#618633

From	Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com>
Date	2023-08-22 21:46 -0700
Message-ID	<71ce5400-97a4-4b01-a867-2bdbe800419bn@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#618590

On Wednesday, 23 August 2023 at 00:43:37 UTC+2, JanPB wrote:

> But relativity starts earlier: it starts with formulating precisely a certain type 
> of kinematics, and this comes before any "F=dp/dt" even enters the room. 
> And it so happens that this new kinematics can be done without much 
> mathematical (or any other really) preparation. 

Well, yes.  It takes nothing to worship The Shit and
chant "whoever doesn't is a stupid crank", indeed.

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#618481

From	Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com>
Date	2023-08-21 10:41 -0700
Message-ID	<57cc679c-ee44-43b5-8d2c-6918f3c312a3n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#618443

On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 11:56:23 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 8:47:14 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
> > Please see: 
> > Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds: All Volumes, Complete and Unabridged (illustrated) Kindle Edition 
> > by Charles MacKay (Author) Format: Kindle Edition 
> > 
> > 
> > The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind Paperback – November 15, 2016 
> > by Gustav Le Bon (Author)
> Another deranged monomaniac. 
> 
> -- 
> Jan
Why is it that groups of people act irrationally? We know they do. Why would you be so sure relativity is rational when it has so many irrational claims? Science is not exempt from being irrational.

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#618503

From	JanPB <filmart@gmail.com>
Date	2023-08-21 15:22 -0700
Message-ID	<8df2af78-e42f-44de-9113-18a3038b2f23n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#618481

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 10:41:50 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 11:56:23 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 8:47:14 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > Please see: 
> > > Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds: All Volumes, Complete and Unabridged (illustrated) Kindle Edition 
> > > by Charles MacKay (Author) Format: Kindle Edition 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind Paperback – November 15, 2016 
> > > by Gustav Le Bon (Author) 
> > Another deranged monomaniac. 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Jan
> Why is it that groups of people act irrationally? We know they do. Why would you be so sure relativity is rational when it has so many irrational claims? Science is not exempt from being irrational.

It makes no more irrational claims than any other theory in physics.
But you got stuck with this relativity monomania because you don't
know any physics, so you have no idea why relativity is the way it is.

--
Jan

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#618531

From	Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com>
Date	2023-08-21 20:32 -0700
Message-ID	<fdf1acab-b452-4018-a39c-cf8c895d5fb5n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#618503

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 3:22:24 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 10:41:50 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 11:56:23 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote: 
> > > On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 8:47:14 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > Please see: 
> > > > Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds: All Volumes, Complete and Unabridged (illustrated) Kindle Edition 
> > > > by Charles MacKay (Author) Format: Kindle Edition 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind Paperback – November 15, 2016 
> > > > by Gustav Le Bon (Author) 
> > > Another deranged monomaniac. 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Jan 
> > Why is it that groups of people act irrationally? We know they do. Why would you be so sure relativity is rational when it has so many irrational claims? Science is not exempt from being irrational.
> It makes no more irrational claims than any other theory in physics. 
> But you got stuck with this relativity monomania because you don't 
> know any physics, so you have no idea why relativity is the way it is. 
> 
> -- 
> Jan
I know some of the history, and so far as the rest of physics is infected with relativity, it is pathetic.

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#618533

From	Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com>
Date	2023-08-21 20:46 -0700
Message-ID	<8274eaa1-5dab-41d4-a6e1-d8178a38c1ccn@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#618531

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 9:32:30 PM UTC-6, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
>
> I know some of the history,

"History" of a subject is not the subject.

> and so far as the rest of physics is infected with relativity, it is pathetic.

Wishy-washy assertion devoid of content.  State specifically what the
"infection" consists of.  Is it that the speed of light is independent of
source and receiver?  Is it time dilation?  Is it length contraction?  Is it
nonsimultaneity?  Or is it just that little Larry doesn't understand it so it
must be wrong?

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#618535

From	"mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com>
Date	2023-08-21 21:15 -0700
Message-ID	<88c5a8c3-fd90-42df-877a-57e4adfec823n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#618533

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 8:46:49 PM UTC-7, Gary Harnagel wrote:
> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 9:32:30 PM UTC-6, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > 
> > I know some of the history,
> "History" of a subject is not the subject.
> > and so far as the rest of physics is infected with relativity, it is pathetic.
> Wishy-washy assertion devoid of content. State specifically what the 
> "infection" consists of. Is it that the speed of light is independent of 
> source and receiver? Is it time dilation? Is it length contraction? Is it 
> nonsimultaneity? Or is it just that little Larry doesn't understand it so it 
> must be wrong?

The infection is where everything is built on it.
It is an assumption. There is no way to measure it.
How do you measure the difference of absolute
or relative?

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#618584

From	Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com>
Date	2023-08-22 13:31 -0700
Message-ID	<59ebc008-d172-4c20-8937-91ad24172dbbn@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#618535

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 9:15:08 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 8:46:49 PM UTC-7, Gary Harnagel wrote: 
> > On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 9:32:30 PM UTC-6, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > 
> > > I know some of the history, 
> > "History" of a subject is not the subject. 
> > > and so far as the rest of physics is infected with relativity, it is pathetic. 
> > Wishy-washy assertion devoid of content. State specifically what the 
> > "infection" consists of. Is it that the speed of light is independent of 
> > source and receiver? Is it time dilation? Is it length contraction? Is it 
> > nonsimultaneity? Or is it just that little Larry doesn't understand it so it 
> > must be wrong?
> The infection is where everything is built on it. 
> It is an assumption. There is no way to measure it. 
> How do you measure the difference of absolute 
> or relative?
I guess it is just an assumption.

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#618588

From	whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com>
Date	2023-08-22 16:49 -0500
Message-ID	<kkkorvFkp0gU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#618584

On 8/22/2023 3:31 PM, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 9:15:08 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 8:46:49 PM UTC-7, Gary Harnagel wrote:
>>> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 9:32:30 PM UTC-6, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I know some of the history,
>>> "History" of a subject is not the subject.
>>>> and so far as the rest of physics is infected with relativity, it is pathetic.
>>> Wishy-washy assertion devoid of content. State specifically what the
>>> "infection" consists of. Is it that the speed of light is independent of
>>> source and receiver? Is it time dilation? Is it length contraction? Is it
>>> nonsimultaneity? Or is it just that little Larry doesn't understand it so it
>>> must be wrong?
>> The infection is where everything is built on it.
>> It is an assumption. There is no way to measure it.
>> How do you measure the difference of absolute
>> or relative?
> I guess it is just an assumption.

There comes a time when all "argument" dissipates and
all that is offered in rebuttal is taunting. Might as
well start treating "Laurence" the same way these
newsgroups have worked with Valev, just let both of
them blather because there is no legitimacy to what
they write and neither will ever run out of stupid
things to say. I would reply, "Thanks for the
memories" if any of them were worth remembering.
Alas they're not. "Laurence" you've finally made i
into my killfile.

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#618583

From	Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com>
Date	2023-08-22 13:29 -0700
Message-ID	<3623dc19-65fe-4e32-96ef-4b46e89c7795n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#618533

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 8:46:49 PM UTC-7, Gary Harnagel wrote:
> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 9:32:30 PM UTC-6, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > 
> > I know some of the history,
> "History" of a subject is not the subject.
> > and so far as the rest of physics is infected with relativity, it is pathetic.
> Wishy-washy assertion devoid of content. State specifically what the 
> "infection" consists of. Is it that the speed of light is independent of 
> source and receiver? Is it time dilation? Is it length contraction? Is it 
> nonsimultaneity? Or is it just that little Larry doesn't understand it so it 
> must be wrong?
Poor Gary can't understand all of relativity is wrong.

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#618704

From	Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com>
Date	2023-08-23 13:11 -0700
Message-ID	<5e6d9aaa-9460-4a28-b174-3d9da0d52d58n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#618583

On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 2:29:46 PM UTC-6, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
>
> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 8:46:49 PM UTC-7, Gary Harnagel wrote:
> >
> > On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 9:32:30 PM UTC-6, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > 
> > > I know some of the history, 
> >
> > "History" of a subject is not the subject. 
> >
> > > and so far as the rest of physics is infected with relativity, it is pathetic. 
> >
> > Wishy-washy assertion devoid of content. State specifically what the 
> > "infection" consists of. Is it that the speed of light is independent of 
> > source and receiver? Is it time dilation? Is it length contraction? Is it 
> > nonsimultaneity? Or is it just that little Larry doesn't understand it so it 
> > must be wrong?
>
> Poor Gary can't understand all of relativity is wrong.

Poor Little Larry, so befuddled he can't come up with a rational reason for his
infantile behavior.

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csiph-web

The extraordinary popular delusion of relativity and the madness of crowds.

Contents

#618428 — The extraordinary popular delusion of relativity and the madness of crowds.

#618430

#618443

#618480

#618502

#618520

#618530

#618564

#618567

#618590

#618633

#618481

#618503

#618531

#618533

#618535

#618584

#618588

#618583

#618704