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Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics

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  Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2023-07-31 14:18 -0700
    Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-07-31 20:22 -0700
      Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2023-07-31 21:05 -0700
        Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-31 21:21 -0700
          Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2023-07-31 21:30 -0700
            Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-01 10:45 -0700
          Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-07-31 21:33 -0700
            Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-31 23:28 -0700
              Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-31 23:29 -0700
              Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-01 06:30 -0700
                Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-01 07:20 -0700
                  Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-01 08:50 -0700
                    Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-01 15:20 -0500
                  Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-01 08:58 -0700
                    Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-01 09:08 -0700
                      Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-01 10:39 -0700
                      Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-01 10:44 -0700
                        Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-01 12:01 -0700
                          Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-01 12:33 -0700
                            Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-01 14:54 -0700
                              Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-01 15:00 -0700
                      Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-01 11:33 -0700
                    Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-01 15:22 -0500
                Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-01 15:24 -0500
    Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-07-31 20:52 -0700
    Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 13:50 -0700
      Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-01 15:08 -0700
        Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-01 18:27 -0500
          Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-02 13:58 -0700
            Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics billv <billv@nowhere.void.net> - 2023-08-02 18:22 -0500
          Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-02 14:02 -0700
            Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics billv <billv@nowhere.void.net> - 2023-08-02 18:38 -0500
          Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-02 14:22 -0700
            Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics billv <billv@nowhere.void.net> - 2023-08-02 19:07 -0500
          Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-02 15:00 -0700
            Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics billv <billv@nowhere.void.net> - 2023-08-02 19:09 -0500
          Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-02 16:55 -0700
          Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-02 17:39 -0700
            Re: Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-05 11:50 -0700

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#616436 — Junk science, agnotology and cognitronics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_science

The expression junk science is used to describe scientific data, research, or analysis considered by the person using the phrase to be spurious or fraudulent. The concept is often invoked in political and legal contexts where facts and scientific results have a great amount of weight in making a determination. 

It usually conveys a pejorative connotation that the research has been untowardly driven by political, ideological, financial, or otherwise unscientific motives. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnotology

Within the sociology of knowledge, agnotology is the study of deliberate, culturally induced ignorance or doubt, typically to sell a product, influence opinion, or win favour, particularly through the publication of inaccurate or misleading scientific data (disinformation).[3][4] More generally, the term includes the condition where more knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty.

Cognitronics  aims to explain distortions in perception caused by the information society and globalization and cope with these distortions.

Major cases: relativity, cosmology, global warming, gender self-determination, origin of life, enzymes and biophysics.

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#616460

On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 2:18:16 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_science 
> 
> The expression junk science is used to describe scientific data, research, or analysis considered by the person using the phrase to be spurious or fraudulent. The concept is often invoked in political and legal contexts where facts and scientific results have a great amount of weight in making a determination. 
> 
> It usually conveys a pejorative connotation that the research has been untowardly driven by political, ideological, financial, or otherwise unscientific motives. 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnotology 
> 
> Within the sociology of knowledge, agnotology is the study of deliberate, culturally induced ignorance or doubt, typically to sell a product, influence opinion, or win favour, particularly through the publication of inaccurate or misleading scientific data (disinformation).[3][4] More generally, the term includes the condition where more knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty. 
> 
> Cognitronics aims to explain distortions in perception caused by the information society and globalization and cope with these distortions. 
> 
> Major cases: relativity, cosmology, global warming, gender self-determination, origin of life, enzymes and biophysics.
I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually.

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#616464

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:22:11 AM UTC-3, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:

<snip>

> I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually.

I believe that the opposite happens: People rapidly align with the herd mentality in groups, and only slowly come to their INDIVIDUAL
senses when being alone or separated in very small groups. THEN, they become easy targets. The history of mankind.

Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing.

That's why RELATIVISTS stop at certain depth, adopt what they gathered as A SACRED DOGMA, and live happy in denial.

Ignorance is a bliss, they say.

Ask any professional relativist about GR, the universe and the BBT, for a fact-check. They can't go any further than the MSM narrative.

Or ask them about what's the deal with quarks, gluon and neutrinos. Same thing.

Physics has been stuck for the last decades, and any new discovery (like with the JWST) make them tremble in fear and ignorance.

Not to mention about any chance that c is not constant across the macro and micro universe.

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#616465

On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:22:11 AM UTC-3, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> 
> <snip>
> > I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually.
> I believe that the opposite happens: People rapidly align with the herd mentality in groups, and only slowly come to their INDIVIDUAL 
> senses when being alone or separated in very small groups. THEN, they become easy targets. The history of mankind. 
> 
> Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing. 
And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
> 
> That's why RELATIVISTS stop at certain depth, adopt what they gathered as A SACRED DOGMA, and live happy in denial. 
> 
> Ignorance is a bliss, they say. 
> 
> Ask any professional relativist about GR, the universe and the BBT, for a fact-check. They can't go any further than the MSM narrative. 
> 
> Or ask them about what's the deal with quarks, gluon and neutrinos. Same thing. 
> 
> Physics has been stuck for the last decades, and any new discovery (like with the JWST) make them tremble in fear and ignorance. 
> 
> Not to mention about any chance that c is not constant across the macro and micro universe.

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#616466

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 1:21:36 AM UTC-3, patdolan wrote:
> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote: 

> > Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing.

> And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

Ecclesiastes 1:17-18 King James Version (KJV)

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#616520

On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:30:46 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 1:21:36 AM UTC-3, patdolan wrote: 
> > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote: 
> 
> > > Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing. 
> 
> > And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
> Ecclesiastes 1:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
If only the relativists were more curious...

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#616467

On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:21:36 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote:
> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:22:11 AM UTC-3, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > 
> > <snip> 
> > > I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually. 
> > I believe that the opposite happens: People rapidly align with the herd mentality in groups, and only slowly come to their INDIVIDUAL 
> > senses when being alone or separated in very small groups. THEN, they become easy targets. The history of mankind. 
> > 
> > Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing.
> And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
Francis Bacon spoke strongly to the contrary.

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#616476

On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:33:27 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:21:36 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote: 
> > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:22:11 AM UTC-3, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > 
> > > <snip> 
> > > > I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually. 
> > > I believe that the opposite happens: People rapidly align with the herd mentality in groups, and only slowly come to their INDIVIDUAL 
> > > senses when being alone or separated in very small groups. THEN, they become easy targets. The history of mankind. 
> > > 
> > > Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing. 
> > And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
> Francis Bacon spoke strongly to the contrary.
But 300 years before Francis Bacon, Fr. Roger Bacon invented (or codified) the scientific method.  Not sure what point I am trying to make here.  But I type it out anyway...time to sleep.

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#616477

On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:28:49 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote:
> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:33:27 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:21:36 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote: 
> > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:22:11 AM UTC-3, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > 
> > > > <snip> 
> > > > > I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually. 
> > > > I believe that the opposite happens: People rapidly align with the herd mentality in groups, and only slowly come to their INDIVIDUAL 
> > > > senses when being alone or separated in very small groups. THEN, they become easy targets. The history of mankind. 
> > > > 
> > > > Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing. 
> > > And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. 
> > Francis Bacon spoke strongly to the contrary.
> But 300 years before Francis Bacon, Fr. Roger Bacon invented (or codified) the scientific method. Not sure what point I am trying to make here. But I type it out anyway...time to sleep.
Agnotology...I will add that one to my collection of words.  Thanks.

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#616502

On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:28:49 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote:
> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:33:27 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:21:36 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote: 
> > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:22:11 AM UTC-3, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > 
> > > > <snip> 
> > > > > I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually. 
> > > > I believe that the opposite happens: People rapidly align with the herd mentality in groups, and only slowly come to their INDIVIDUAL 
> > > > senses when being alone or separated in very small groups. THEN, they become easy targets. The history of mankind. 
> > > > 
> > > > Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing. 
> > > And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. 
> > Francis Bacon spoke strongly to the contrary.
> But 300 years before Francis Bacon, Fr. Roger Bacon invented (or codified) the scientific method. Not sure what point I am trying to make here. But I type it out anyway...time to sleep.
What I meant was that Francis Bacon spoke about the importance of seeking knowledge in such a way as to counter any apparent scriptural directions to the contrary. At the moment, I forget the quote.

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#616507

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 6:30:46 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:28:49 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:33:27 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:21:36 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote: 
> > > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:22:11 AM UTC-3, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > 
> > > > > <snip> 
> > > > > > I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually. 
> > > > > I believe that the opposite happens: People rapidly align with the herd mentality in groups, and only slowly come to their INDIVIDUAL 
> > > > > senses when being alone or separated in very small groups. THEN, they become easy targets. The history of mankind. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing. 
> > > > And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. 
> > > Francis Bacon spoke strongly to the contrary. 
> > But 300 years before Francis Bacon, Fr. Roger Bacon invented (or codified) the scientific method. Not sure what point I am trying to make here. But I type it out anyway...time to sleep.
> What I meant was that Francis Bacon spoke about the importance of seeking knowledge in such a way as to counter any apparent scriptural directions to the contrary. At the moment, I forget the quote.
Laurence, I have no qualms with this approach of Francis Bacon; provided Bacon's method also values the importance of knowledge that leads in a direction that confirms scripture.  To act otherwise would be to allow one's preferred worldview to unnecessarily bias one's investigations and/or beliefs.

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#616510

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:20:49 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 6:30:46 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:28:49 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:33:27 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:21:36 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote: 
> > > > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:22:11 AM UTC-3, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > <snip> 
> > > > > > > I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually. 
> > > > > > I believe that the opposite happens: People rapidly align with the herd mentality in groups, and only slowly come to their INDIVIDUAL 
> > > > > > senses when being alone or separated in very small groups. THEN, they become easy targets. The history of mankind. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing. 
> > > > > And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. 
> > > > Francis Bacon spoke strongly to the contrary. 
> > > But 300 years before Francis Bacon, Fr. Roger Bacon invented (or codified) the scientific method. Not sure what point I am trying to make here. But I type it out anyway...time to sleep. 
> > What I meant was that Francis Bacon spoke about the importance of seeking knowledge in such a way as to counter any apparent scriptural directions to the contrary. At the moment, I forget the quote.
> Laurence, I have no qualms with this approach of Francis Bacon; provided Bacon's method also values the importance of knowledge that leads in a direction that confirms scripture. To act otherwise would be to allow one's preferred worldview to unnecessarily bias one's investigations and/or beliefs.
Francis Bacon called himself the "bell-ringer of a new age." This has been understood as the beginning of the scientific revolution and industrial age. Bacon was crucial for the advancement of science. At the same time he believed in a previous paradise on Earth and a future one.

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#616537

On 8/1/2023 10:50 AM, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:20:49 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote:
>> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 6:30:46 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
>>> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:28:49 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote:
>>>> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:33:27 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:21:36 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:22:11 AM UTC-3, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>> I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually.
>>>>>>> I believe that the opposite happens: People rapidly align with the herd mentality in groups, and only slowly come to their INDIVIDUAL
>>>>>>> senses when being alone or separated in very small groups. THEN, they become easy targets. The history of mankind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing.
>>>>>> And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
>>>>> Francis Bacon spoke strongly to the contrary.
>>>> But 300 years before Francis Bacon, Fr. Roger Bacon invented (or codified) the scientific method. Not sure what point I am trying to make here. But I type it out anyway...time to sleep.
>>> What I meant was that Francis Bacon spoke about the importance of seeking knowledge in such a way as to counter any apparent scriptural directions to the contrary. At the moment, I forget the quote.
>> Laurence, I have no qualms with this approach of Francis Bacon; provided Bacon's method also values the importance of knowledge that leads in a direction that confirms scripture. To act otherwise would be to allow one's preferred worldview to unnecessarily bias one's investigations and/or beliefs.
> Francis Bacon called himself the "bell-ringer of a new age." This has been understood as the beginning of the scientific revolution and industrial age. Bacon was crucial for the advancement of science. At the same time he believed in a previous paradise on Earth and a future one.

History of physics is not physics, ask your friend Jane for help with
this.

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#616511

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:20:49 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 6:30:46 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:28:49 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:33:27 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:21:36 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote: 
> > > > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:22:11 AM UTC-3, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > <snip> 
> > > > > > > I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually. 
> > > > > > I believe that the opposite happens: People rapidly align with the herd mentality in groups, and only slowly come to their INDIVIDUAL 
> > > > > > senses when being alone or separated in very small groups. THEN, they become easy targets. The history of mankind. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing. 
> > > > > And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. 
> > > > Francis Bacon spoke strongly to the contrary. 
> > > But 300 years before Francis Bacon, Fr. Roger Bacon invented (or codified) the scientific method. Not sure what point I am trying to make here. But I type it out anyway...time to sleep. 
> > What I meant was that Francis Bacon spoke about the importance of seeking knowledge in such a way as to counter any apparent scriptural directions to the contrary. At the moment, I forget the quote.
> Laurence, I have no qualms with this approach of Francis Bacon; provided Bacon's method also values the importance of knowledge that leads in a direction that confirms scripture. To act otherwise would be to allow one's preferred worldview to unnecessarily bias one's investigations and/or beliefs.
The NRSV: "And I applied my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also is but a chasing after wind. For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow." I believe this is a harmful verse because increasing knowledge only increases sorrow in the sense that it increases one's awareness of the misfortunes in the world and increases one's responsibilities. Increasing knowledge reduces the sorrow in the world.

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#616512

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 8:58:08 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:20:49 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 6:30:46 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:28:49 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:33:27 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:21:36 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:22:11 AM UTC-3, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > <snip> 
> > > > > > > > I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually. 
> > > > > > > I believe that the opposite happens: People rapidly align with the herd mentality in groups, and only slowly come to their INDIVIDUAL 
> > > > > > > senses when being alone or separated in very small groups. THEN, they become easy targets. The history of mankind. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing. 
> > > > > > And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. 
> > > > > Francis Bacon spoke strongly to the contrary. 
> > > > But 300 years before Francis Bacon, Fr. Roger Bacon invented (or codified) the scientific method. Not sure what point I am trying to make here. But I type it out anyway...time to sleep. 
> > > What I meant was that Francis Bacon spoke about the importance of seeking knowledge in such a way as to counter any apparent scriptural directions to the contrary. At the moment, I forget the quote. 
> > Laurence, I have no qualms with this approach of Francis Bacon; provided Bacon's method also values the importance of knowledge that leads in a direction that confirms scripture. To act otherwise would be to allow one's preferred worldview to unnecessarily bias one's investigations and/or beliefs.
> The NRSV: "And I applied my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also is but a chasing after wind. For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow." I believe this is a harmful verse because increasing knowledge only increases sorrow in the sense that it increases one's awareness of the misfortunes in the world and increases one's responsibilities. Increasing knowledge reduces the sorrow in the world.
Ecclesiastes is entitled to his opinion, as you are to yours Laurence.  I shall give both careful consideration.

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#616518

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 9:08:20 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 8:58:08 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:20:49 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 6:30:46 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:28:49 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:33:27 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:21:36 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote: 
> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:22:11 AM UTC-3, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > <snip> 
> > > > > > > > > I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually. 
> > > > > > > > I believe that the opposite happens: People rapidly align with the herd mentality in groups, and only slowly come to their INDIVIDUAL 
> > > > > > > > senses when being alone or separated in very small groups. THEN, they become easy targets. The history of mankind. 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing. 
> > > > > > > And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. 
> > > > > > Francis Bacon spoke strongly to the contrary. 
> > > > > But 300 years before Francis Bacon, Fr. Roger Bacon invented (or codified) the scientific method. Not sure what point I am trying to make here. But I type it out anyway...time to sleep. 
> > > > What I meant was that Francis Bacon spoke about the importance of seeking knowledge in such a way as to counter any apparent scriptural directions to the contrary. At the moment, I forget the quote. 
> > > Laurence, I have no qualms with this approach of Francis Bacon; provided Bacon's method also values the importance of knowledge that leads in a direction that confirms scripture. To act otherwise would be to allow one's preferred worldview to unnecessarily bias one's investigations and/or beliefs. 
> > The NRSV: "And I applied my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also is but a chasing after wind. For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow." I believe this is a harmful verse because increasing knowledge only increases sorrow in the sense that it increases one's awareness of the misfortunes in the world and increases one's responsibilities. Increasing knowledge reduces the sorrow in the world.
> Ecclesiastes is entitled to his opinion, as you are to yours Laurence. I shall give both careful consideration.
Francis Bacon thought the matter worth addressing. I still can't remember what he said as I was studying that about twenty years ago when I studied the Battle of the Books.

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#616519

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 9:08:20 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 8:58:08 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:20:49 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 6:30:46 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:28:49 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:33:27 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:21:36 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote: 
> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:22:11 AM UTC-3, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > <snip> 
> > > > > > > > > I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually. 
> > > > > > > > I believe that the opposite happens: People rapidly align with the herd mentality in groups, and only slowly come to their INDIVIDUAL 
> > > > > > > > senses when being alone or separated in very small groups. THEN, they become easy targets. The history of mankind. 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing. 
> > > > > > > And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. 
> > > > > > Francis Bacon spoke strongly to the contrary. 
> > > > > But 300 years before Francis Bacon, Fr. Roger Bacon invented (or codified) the scientific method. Not sure what point I am trying to make here. But I type it out anyway...time to sleep. 
> > > > What I meant was that Francis Bacon spoke about the importance of seeking knowledge in such a way as to counter any apparent scriptural directions to the contrary. At the moment, I forget the quote. 
> > > Laurence, I have no qualms with this approach of Francis Bacon; provided Bacon's method also values the importance of knowledge that leads in a direction that confirms scripture. To act otherwise would be to allow one's preferred worldview to unnecessarily bias one's investigations and/or beliefs. 
> > The NRSV: "And I applied my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also is but a chasing after wind. For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow." I believe this is a harmful verse because increasing knowledge only increases sorrow in the sense that it increases one's awareness of the misfortunes in the world and increases one's responsibilities. Increasing knowledge reduces the sorrow in the world.
> Ecclesiastes is entitled to his opinion, as you are to yours Laurence. I shall give both careful consideration.
This nicely addresses the issue and shows its importance: "From the patristic period to the beginning of the seventeenth century curiosity was regarded as an intellectual vice. Curious individuals were considered to be proud and "puffed up," and the objects of their investigations were deemed illicit, dispute engendering, unknowable, or useless. Seventeenth-century projects for the advancement of learning had to distance themselves from curiosity and its dubious fruits or, alternatively, enhance the moral status of the curious sensibility. Francis Bacon's proposals for the instauration of knowledge were an integral part of a process by which curiosity underwent a remarkable transformation from vice to virtue over the course of the seventeenth century. The changing fortunes of this human propensity highlight the morally charged nature of early modern debates over the status of natural philosophy and the particular virtues required of its practitioners. The rehabilitation of curiosity was a crucial element in the objectification of scientific knowledge and led to a gradual shift of focus away from the moral qualities of investigators and the propriety of particular objects of knowledge to specific procedures and methods." - "Curiosity, Forbidden Knowledge, and the Reformation of Natural Philosophy in Early Modern England" Peter Harrison

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#616528

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 10:44:33 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 9:08:20 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 8:58:08 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:20:49 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 6:30:46 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:28:49 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:33:27 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:21:36 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:22:11 AM UTC-3, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > <snip> 
> > > > > > > > > > I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually. 
> > > > > > > > > I believe that the opposite happens: People rapidly align with the herd mentality in groups, and only slowly come to their INDIVIDUAL 
> > > > > > > > > senses when being alone or separated in very small groups. THEN, they become easy targets. The history of mankind. 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing. 
> > > > > > > > And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. 
> > > > > > > Francis Bacon spoke strongly to the contrary. 
> > > > > > But 300 years before Francis Bacon, Fr. Roger Bacon invented (or codified) the scientific method. Not sure what point I am trying to make here. But I type it out anyway...time to sleep. 
> > > > > What I meant was that Francis Bacon spoke about the importance of seeking knowledge in such a way as to counter any apparent scriptural directions to the contrary. At the moment, I forget the quote. 
> > > > Laurence, I have no qualms with this approach of Francis Bacon; provided Bacon's method also values the importance of knowledge that leads in a direction that confirms scripture. To act otherwise would be to allow one's preferred worldview to unnecessarily bias one's investigations and/or beliefs. 
> > > The NRSV: "And I applied my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also is but a chasing after wind. For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow." I believe this is a harmful verse because increasing knowledge only increases sorrow in the sense that it increases one's awareness of the misfortunes in the world and increases one's responsibilities. Increasing knowledge reduces the sorrow in the world. 
> > Ecclesiastes is entitled to his opinion, as you are to yours Laurence. I shall give both careful consideration.
> This nicely addresses the issue and shows its importance: "From the patristic period to the beginning of the seventeenth century curiosity was regarded as an intellectual vice. Curious individuals were considered to be proud and "puffed up," and the objects of their investigations were deemed illicit, dispute engendering, unknowable, or useless. Seventeenth-century projects for the advancement of learning had to distance themselves from curiosity and its dubious fruits or, alternatively, enhance the moral status of the curious sensibility. Francis Bacon's proposals for the instauration of knowledge were an integral part of a process by which curiosity underwent a remarkable transformation from vice to virtue over the course of the seventeenth century. The changing fortunes of this human propensity highlight the morally charged nature of early modern debates over the status of natural philosophy and the particular virtues required of its practitioners. The rehabilitation of curiosity was a crucial element in the objectification of scientific knowledge and led to a gradual shift of focus away from the moral qualities of investigators and the propriety of particular objects of knowledge to specific procedures and methods." - "Curiosity, Forbidden Knowledge, and the Reformation of Natural Philosophy in Early Modern England" Peter Harrison
Author Harrison is perhaps too Francis-Bacon-centric.  I have already pointed out that Franciscan Friar Roger Bacon was busy working out the fine points of the experimental method in the early 1300s.  And let us not forget St. Thomas Aquinas, who brought Aristotle to Europe and his mentor, St. Albert the Great whose scientific achievements 300 years prior to Francis Bacon, dwarf the latter's scientific efforts.  Then there is the School of Salamanca and Fr. Domingo de Soto--contemporaries of Francis B--who discovered Galileo's law of momentum before the latter was born.  I could go on further, but this is enough for now.

But thank you for the Baconian philosophy on the acquisition of knowledge, with which I don't disagree.  Very interesting.

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#616533

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:01:42 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 10:44:33 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 9:08:20 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 8:58:08 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:20:49 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 6:30:46 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:28:49 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:33:27 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:21:36 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:22:11 AM UTC-3, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > <snip> 
> > > > > > > > > > > I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually. 
> > > > > > > > > > I believe that the opposite happens: People rapidly align with the herd mentality in groups, and only slowly come to their INDIVIDUAL 
> > > > > > > > > > senses when being alone or separated in very small groups. THEN, they become easy targets. The history of mankind. 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing. 
> > > > > > > > > And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. 
> > > > > > > > Francis Bacon spoke strongly to the contrary. 
> > > > > > > But 300 years before Francis Bacon, Fr. Roger Bacon invented (or codified) the scientific method. Not sure what point I am trying to make here. But I type it out anyway...time to sleep. 
> > > > > > What I meant was that Francis Bacon spoke about the importance of seeking knowledge in such a way as to counter any apparent scriptural directions to the contrary. At the moment, I forget the quote. 
> > > > > Laurence, I have no qualms with this approach of Francis Bacon; provided Bacon's method also values the importance of knowledge that leads in a direction that confirms scripture. To act otherwise would be to allow one's preferred worldview to unnecessarily bias one's investigations and/or beliefs. 
> > > > The NRSV: "And I applied my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also is but a chasing after wind. For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow." I believe this is a harmful verse because increasing knowledge only increases sorrow in the sense that it increases one's awareness of the misfortunes in the world and increases one's responsibilities. Increasing knowledge reduces the sorrow in the world. 
> > > Ecclesiastes is entitled to his opinion, as you are to yours Laurence. I shall give both careful consideration. 
> > This nicely addresses the issue and shows its importance: "From the patristic period to the beginning of the seventeenth century curiosity was regarded as an intellectual vice. Curious individuals were considered to be proud and "puffed up," and the objects of their investigations were deemed illicit, dispute engendering, unknowable, or useless. Seventeenth-century projects for the advancement of learning had to distance themselves from curiosity and its dubious fruits or, alternatively, enhance the moral status of the curious sensibility. Francis Bacon's proposals for the instauration of knowledge were an integral part of a process by which curiosity underwent a remarkable transformation from vice to virtue over the course of the seventeenth century. The changing fortunes of this human propensity highlight the morally charged nature of early modern debates over the status of natural philosophy and the particular virtues required of its practitioners. The rehabilitation of curiosity was a crucial element in the objectification of scientific knowledge and led to a gradual shift of focus away from the moral qualities of investigators and the propriety of particular objects of knowledge to specific procedures and methods." - "Curiosity, Forbidden Knowledge, and the Reformation of Natural Philosophy in Early Modern England" Peter Harrison
> Author Harrison is perhaps too Francis-Bacon-centric. I have already pointed out that Franciscan Friar Roger Bacon was busy working out the fine points of the experimental method in the early 1300s. And let us not forget St. Thomas Aquinas, who brought Aristotle to Europe and his mentor, St. Albert the Great whose scientific achievements 300 years prior to Francis Bacon, dwarf the latter's scientific efforts. Then there is the School of Salamanca and Fr. Domingo de Soto--contemporaries of Francis B--who discovered Galileo's law of momentum before the latter was born. I could go on further, but this is enough for now. 
> 
> But thank you for the Baconian philosophy on the acquisition of knowledge, with which I don't disagree. Very interesting.
I certainly did not claim any status for Bacon any greater than any of those you mentioned and don't know why you would read that in.

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#616550

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:33:04 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:01:42 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 10:44:33 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 9:08:20 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 8:58:08 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:20:49 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 6:30:46 AM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:28:49 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:33:27 PM UTC-7, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:21:36 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 9:05:29 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:22:11 AM UTC-3, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > <snip> 
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think there are obviously a number of possible motives involved in developing culturally induced ignorance. What are the main factors involved in the condition where knowledge of a subject creates greater uncertainty? Apparent complexity, credulity, weak reasoning abilities, deception, vices... People go crazy in groups and only slowly come to their senses individually. 
> > > > > > > > > > > I believe that the opposite happens: People rapidly align with the herd mentality in groups, and only slowly come to their INDIVIDUAL 
> > > > > > > > > > > senses when being alone or separated in very small groups. THEN, they become easy targets. The history of mankind. 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Knowledge is a bottomless pit. The more the knowledge any individual or small group has, the more they know that know nothing. 
> > > > > > > > > > And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. 
> > > > > > > > > Francis Bacon spoke strongly to the contrary. 
> > > > > > > > But 300 years before Francis Bacon, Fr. Roger Bacon invented (or codified) the scientific method. Not sure what point I am trying to make here. But I type it out anyway...time to sleep. 
> > > > > > > What I meant was that Francis Bacon spoke about the importance of seeking knowledge in such a way as to counter any apparent scriptural directions to the contrary. At the moment, I forget the quote. 
> > > > > > Laurence, I have no qualms with this approach of Francis Bacon; provided Bacon's method also values the importance of knowledge that leads in a direction that confirms scripture. To act otherwise would be to allow one's preferred worldview to unnecessarily bias one's investigations and/or beliefs. 
> > > > > The NRSV: "And I applied my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also is but a chasing after wind. For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow." I believe this is a harmful verse because increasing knowledge only increases sorrow in the sense that it increases one's awareness of the misfortunes in the world and increases one's responsibilities. Increasing knowledge reduces the sorrow in the world. 
> > > > Ecclesiastes is entitled to his opinion, as you are to yours Laurence. I shall give both careful consideration. 
> > > This nicely addresses the issue and shows its importance: "From the patristic period to the beginning of the seventeenth century curiosity was regarded as an intellectual vice. Curious individuals were considered to be proud and "puffed up," and the objects of their investigations were deemed illicit, dispute engendering, unknowable, or useless. Seventeenth-century projects for the advancement of learning had to distance themselves from curiosity and its dubious fruits or, alternatively, enhance the moral status of the curious sensibility. Francis Bacon's proposals for the instauration of knowledge were an integral part of a process by which curiosity underwent a remarkable transformation from vice to virtue over the course of the seventeenth century. The changing fortunes of this human propensity highlight the morally charged nature of early modern debates over the status of natural philosophy and the particular virtues required of its practitioners. The rehabilitation of curiosity was a crucial element in the objectification of scientific knowledge and led to a gradual shift of focus away from the moral qualities of investigators and the propriety of particular objects of knowledge to specific procedures and methods." - "Curiosity, Forbidden Knowledge, and the Reformation of Natural Philosophy in Early Modern England" Peter Harrison 
> > Author Harrison is perhaps too Francis-Bacon-centric. I have already pointed out that Franciscan Friar Roger Bacon was busy working out the fine points of the experimental method in the early 1300s. And let us not forget St. Thomas Aquinas, who brought Aristotle to Europe and his mentor, St. Albert the Great whose scientific achievements 300 years prior to Francis Bacon, dwarf the latter's scientific efforts. Then there is the School of Salamanca and Fr. Domingo de Soto--contemporaries of Francis B--who discovered Galileo's law of momentum before the latter was born. I could go on further, but this is enough for now. 
> > 
> > But thank you for the Baconian philosophy on the acquisition of knowledge, with which I don't disagree. Very interesting.
> I certainly did not claim any status for Bacon any greater than any of those you mentioned and don't know why you would read that in.
Forgive my over-interpretation of your very informative post, Laurence.

whodat, you philistine phool, have some discretion when bursting in on the threads of those more, thoughtful, philosophic, world-encompassing, and dare I say, intelligent than yourself.

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